Who had the tougher competition for individual awards, Crosby or McDavid?

[Video Nasty]

Crosby returned after missing 20+games played 7 which lowered his ppg. Before injury he was clearly ahead. Like I said. Ovechkin won his only art ross when crosby went down while leading the league.

A great example of Crosby being given every benefit of the doubt. He returns from other injuries and posts a high PPG, and he is seen as being able to keep it up for an entire season. When he returns from injury and posts a lower PPG, well, he was injured, he would have won otherwise.

Bullshit. If you give the benefit of the doubt to Crosby, you have to give it to someone like Alfredsson who missed 12 games himself and could be described in a similar way.

These things don’t exist in a vacuum. A 2007-2008 season where Crosby doesn’t miss those games is a completely different reality. You can’t just project out his pre-injury totals and stack them up against the rest who actually played the games.

Crosby owned the top PPG going into the game he was injured, but it was very close and he was tied with both Kovalchuk and Lecavalier for the scoring lead, just 1 point ahead of Iginla, and just 3 points ahead of Alfredsson in the same number of games. Can we stop pretending he was alone at the top? Lecavalier had the lead outright just a night later. How differently does a scoring race unfold when there is a real duel going on?

Ovechkin scored 55 points in his final 36 games from that point on. It’s so arrogant to believe that it’s likely Crosby would have scored the necessary 50 points in 37 games needed to win outright (again in a vacuum where literally everything stays exactly the same). Crosby started with 40 points in his first 27 games (1.48 PPG) that season and was in the midst of a stretch where he had 23 points in 18 games (1.28 PPG) prior to the game he exited early.

 

[blundluntman]

Crosby in his prime went up against: Ovi, Malkin , Datsyuk, H Sedin, Stamkos, St. Louis, Thornton, etc.

McDavid in his prime has gone up against: Kucherov, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Matthews, Pastrnak, Panarin

Tier 1 Competition: Ovi and Malkin probably peaked a little higher (its debatable though), but Kuch/Mack were threats on a more conssitent basis. It's a wash for me.
Tier 2 Competition: Draisaitl, Matthews, Datsyuk are pretty close. Datsyuk may be the best out of the 3 but Draisaitl's playoff numbers and Matthews' goal scoring are hard to ignore. McDavid's competition takes this due to strength in numbers.
Tier 3 Competition: Stamkos may be the most dynamic out this bunch, Sedin was pretty potent too though, Panarin has been amazing and Pastrnak is pretty good too. Probably go with the Crosby bunch.

All in all it's a wash.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

McDavid. It's not even close.
Jamie Benn, Sedins, Getzlaf, Giroux etc are NOT on the same level as Matthews, MacKinnon, Kuchervov, Draisaitl, etc,

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

A great example of Crosby being given every benefit of the doubt. He returns from other injuries and posts a high PPG, and he is seen as being able to keep it up for an entire season. When he returns from injury and posts a lower PPG, well, he was injured, he would have won otherwise.

Bullshit. If you give the benefit of the doubt to Crosby, you have to give it to someone like Alfredsson who missed 12 games himself and could be described in a similar way.

These things don’t exist in a vacuum. A 2007-2008 season where Crosby doesn’t miss those games is a completely different reality. You can’t just project out his pre-injury totals and stack them up against the rest who actually played the games.

Crosby owned the top PPG going into the game he was injured, but it was very close and he was tied with both Kovalchuk and Lecavalier for the scoring lead, just 1 point ahead of Iginla, and just 3 points ahead of Alfredsson in the same number of games. Can we stop pretending he was alone at the top? Lecavalier had the lead outright just a night later. How differently does a scoring race unfold when there is a real duel going on?

Ovechkin scored 55 points in his final 36 games from that point on. It’s so arrogant to believe that it’s likely Crosby would have scored the necessary 50 points in 37 games needed to win outright (again in a vacuum where literally everything stays exactly the same). Crosby started with 40 points in his first 27 games (1.48 PPG) that season and was in the midst of a stretch where he had 23 points in 18 games (1.28 PPG) prior to the game he exited early.

Well then lets look at it this way
Ovechkin 112 points in 82 games 1.37
Crosby 72 in 53 1.36 ppg and 27 points in 20 playoff games 1.35 ppg

In total crosby scored 99 points in 73 games which is 1.36 ppg

Either way it was going to be super close. It could have gone either way.
N factor in those include 20 playoff games for crosby where the checking is much tighter

And why would i give someone like Alfie the benefit of the doubt when he had never sniffed a ross in his life while Crosby was the defending ross winner who had yet to have his ankle sprain?

McDavid. It's not even close.
Jamie Benn, Sedins, Getzlaf, Giroux etc are NOT on the same level as Matthews, MacKinnon, Kuchervov, Draisaitl, etc,

Might want to check who was second in scoring in connors second art ross.

 

[Gunnersaurus Rex]

Well then lets look at it this way
Ovechkin 112 points in 82 games 1.37
Crosby 72 in 53 1.36 ppg and 27 points in 20 playoff games 1.35 ppg

In total crosby scored 99 points in 73 games which is 1.36 ppg

Either way it was going to be super close. It could have gone either way.
N factor in those include 20 playoff games for crosby where the checking is much tighter

And why would i give someone like Alfie the benefit of the doubt when he had never sniffed a ross in his life while Crosby was the defending ross winner who had yet to have his ankle sprain?


Might want to check who was second in scoring in connors second art ross.

So McDavid beats Giroux in a season where Giroux has a career year and smokes Crosby by 13 points.
Meanwhile, in Crosby's prime, Giroux averaged around 72 points per season.
But Crosby had tougher competition from Giroux.
Okay

 

[Crow]

McDavid takes this.

Ovi won a lot more awards than Crosby, which makes it a little closer. Really the thread should be about Ovi, who has the much bigger trophy case.

 

[authentic]

Let's compare their careers head to head:



Not sure how other award winners besides OV and Malkin aren't "threats". Kane in 15/16 was as big of a "threat" as any season from Kucherov or Mac (save for last season but that is mildly debatable). At least one of Stamkos' Richards were also a threat as much as Matthews' was. You make it seem like Mac and Kucherov simply playing a full season is a threat.

Let's put it this way. McDavid has two seasons that are the best of his era that would have beaten the best of Mac, Kucherov, OV and Malkin.

His next best season (23/24) loses to OV's best 2 seasons, arguably a 3rd, Malkin's 11/12, and Kane's 15/16 season.

It is clear that Crosby could have had the same amount of Rosses as McDavid by age 28; and that would have nothing to do with the quality of competition.

This is the correct answer to the thread. Their competition is largely irrelevant actually.

 

[Regal]

Maintaining a pace for 50-some games is easier than for 80 games. So even with your point, it's quite generous to assume the player with the lower PPG would have increased it by playing ~ 55% more games.

These types of extrapolations are selectively applied, and not really relevant to the thread which is intended as a comparison of Ovechkin/Malkin/Kane/Sedins/Datsyuk/Stamkos/MSL/ to Kucherov/Draisaitl/MacKinnon/Matthews.

His pace wasn’t anything unsustainable though. But I agree that it’s not really relevant

 

[TheLegend27]

Ovechkin and Malkin only truly obstructed Crosby once, in 2008-2009. After 2010-2011, Ovechkin changed his playstyle to a pure sniper, which means he was no longer a direct competitor to Crosby for the Art Ross. From 2009-2023, Malkin has played 70 or more games twice. 2019 Kuch, last year's 144-point Kuch & 140-point Mack are better competition than anything Crosby directly lost out to. If Ovechkin sustained his 2006-2010 level it's a discussion, otherwise, McDavid's competition has been better quite comfortably. I'm sorry, but if McDavid's best competitor puts up a Jamie Benn 2015-type season, McDavid is lapping his production by 50%.

 

[ijuka]

McDavid, AINEC.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

McDavid.

It's telling that in McDavid's time you don't see multiple Hart and Ross trophies going to players on the level of Benn, Sedins, Perry

 

[bobbyking]

You can rate each player on their peak/prime level but many players in the OP missed time. I don't think peak Crosby or peak McDavid lose an Art Ross to the peak version of any of those players.

Crosby was going head to head with arguably the two best players, OV and Malkin, who were a year ahead and, like Crosby, reaching their primes early.

Ironically, McDavid is going head to head with players who despite being older, are reaching their peak.

All that being said, this thread will be pages and pages and pages of debating raw numbers with zero context.

mcdavid already passed crosby get over it

 

[TheLegend27]

Ovechkin and Malkin only truly obstructed Crosby once, in 2008-2009. After 2010-2011, Ovechkin changed his playstyle to a pure sniper, which means he was no longer a direct competitor to Crosby for the Art Ross. From 2009-2023, Malkin has played 70 or more games twice. 2019 Kuch, last year's 144-point Kuch & 140-point Mack are better competition than anything Crosby directly lost out to. If Ovechkin sustained his 2006-2010 level it's a discussion, otherwise, McDavid's competition has been better quite comfortably. I'm sorry, but if McDavid's competitor has a Jamie Benn 2015 type of season, he's lapping his production by 50%.

 

[Golden_Jet]

Crosby bare mimimum has 4 right now with no injuries. Every sane person knows 11 n 13 were locks. In 2008 he was tied for the lead with 63 points in 45 games and was 6 points up on ovechkin the eventual winner. If healthy all year he likely wins. 2012. 24 year old peak crosby would have given malkin serious trouble. Do ill leave it at 4 art ross and good chance at 6.

lol, probably wins whenever he is healthy, nice satire, ease up on the bias, it’s Daver level.

Every sane person ……
How many does he lose if other players fully healthy on the ones he won?

Maybe he wins, maybe OV wins, maybe Alfredsson wins…..OV wins he was able to play 82 and get the most points. There are no trophies for pace,

What’s next Crosby should have 20 Art Rosses if “X” happens and “Y” doesn’t happen as well.

 

[Video Nasty]

And why would i give someone like Alfie the benefit of the doubt when he had never sniffed a ross in his life while Crosby was the defending ross winner who had yet to have his ankle sprain?

That’s true. What am I thinking asking to give other players the same benefit you give Crosby when you can’t even give it to the superior player in McDavid?

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Shame about Crosby's injuries but you can't give him unearned awards based on "what if?"

Sometimes the best ability is availability.

The answer is McDavid.

 

[authentic]

Ovechkin and Malkin only truly obstructed Crosby once, in 2008-2009. After 2010-2011, Ovechkin changed his playstyle to a pure sniper, which means he was no longer a direct competitor to Crosby for the Art Ross. From 2009-2023, Malkin has played 70 or more games twice. 2019 Kuch, last year's 144-point Kuch & 140-point Mack are better competition than anything Crosby directly lost out to. If Ovechkin sustained his 2006-2010 level it's a discussion, otherwise, McDavid's competition has been better quite comfortably. I'm sorry, but if McDavid's best competitor puts up a Jamie Benn 2015-type season, McDavid is lapping his production by 50%.

Crosby narrowly lost to Benn the two seasons after sustaining a wrist injury that visibly effected his puck handling and under a new coach deploying a more defensive system, in a league where Patrick Kane at his absolute peak was the only player to exceed 89 points in two seasons. These two seasons aren’t really such a knock on Crosby in the grand scheme of things, McDavid has been rather lucky that he didn’t come up in that era, same with all the other stars of today. Higher scoring and everyone is largely a lot healthier with extended or later peaks and primes.

Ultimately Crosby’s performance in 2016-17 and in a few playoff runs thereafter put to rest any idea that Benn was as good as him anyway.

 

[authentic]

Shame about Crosby's injuries but you can't give him unearned awards based on "what if?"

Sometimes the best ability is availability.

The answer is McDavid.

True but comparing availability is a slippery slope from the most recent era to the current one. That league was 10x more dangerous than the NHL of today and basically all the elite players were done being consistently dominant after 25 or 26.

The same thing was true of Gretzky’s 80s counterparts compared to Lemieux and all the stars in the 90s. Come to think of it is it really any wonder that Gretzky started getting injured himself fairly consistently in the late 80s and 90s when the rest of the league did, and the way players took liberties with Lemieux the abuse was tenfold.

 

[Video Nasty]

McDavid has been rather lucky that he didn’t come up in that era, same with all the other stars of today. Higher scoring and everyone is largely a lot healthier with extended or later peaks and primes.

Ultimately Crosby’s performance in 2016-17 and in a few playoff runs thereafter put to rest any idea that Benn was as good as him anyway.

No one ever thought Benn was anywhere as good as Crosby. That's kind of the point. It was embarrassing to finish behind him in back to back years, among other players. Weak era and he couldn't tear it apart.

As for McDavid being lucky. What? Raw finishes are raw finishes, regardless of how the average GPG or how many points players are clearing.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

McDavid.

It's telling that in McDavid's time you don't see multiple Hart and Ross trophies going to players on the level of Benn, Sedins, Perry

Well yes, because McDavid has had better luck with injuries than Crosby. These aren't independent things. If Crosby hadn't gotten hurt he would have won 5 straight Art Ross trophies. If McDavid had missed 5 games more in 21-22 Huberdeau would have an Art Ross (lol).

Ovechkin and Malkin only truly obstructed Crosby once, in 2008-2009. After 2010-2011, Ovechkin changed his playstyle to a pure sniper, which means he was no longer a direct competitor to Crosby for the Art Ross. From 2009-2023, Malkin has played 70 or more games twice. 2019 Kuch, last year's 144-point Kuch & 140-point Mack are better competition than anything Crosby directly lost out to. If Ovechkin sustained his 2006-2010 level it's a discussion, otherwise, McDavid's competition has been better quite comfortably. I'm sorry, but if McDavid's best competitor puts up a Jamie Benn 2015-type season, McDavid is lapping his production by 50%.

Except in 2022 where he was holding off Huberdeau until the last few games, right, and only beat him by 8? The guy who would only score 55 points the very next season.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I don't think peak Crosby or peak McDavid lose an Art Ross to the peak version of any of those players.

Both have done so already.

Heck, peak healthy 27yo McDavid got his butt kicked by multiple older players this season.

 

[Video Nasty]

Well yes, because McDavid has had better luck with injuries than Crosby. These aren't independent things. If Crosby hadn't gotten hurt he would have won 5 straight Art Ross trophies. If McDavid had missed 5 games more in 21-22 Huberdeau would have an Art Ross (lol).


Except in 2022 where he was holding off Huberdeau until the last few games, right, and only beat him by 8? The guy who would only score 55 points the very next season.

Florida was one of the best regular season teams in recent memory and had a ton of firepower. They led the league with 337 goals, which was 52 more than Edmonton. Whatever you’re trying to say isn’t the flex you think it is.

The difference between McDavid and Crosby is basically right there in front of your face. McDavid beats out the stars align everything gone right peak seasons that crop up each year, and Crosby loses to similar players or worse (Benn). There’s no doubt in my mind that Crosby would cave and lose to Huberdeau and Gaudreau’s perfect storm seasons, or simply get wiped out by McDavid himself if they were the same age.

Why not mention how he decimated everyone in the seasons that sandwich 2021-2022? Or how he’s currently working on what will likely be his 9th consecutive top 3 raw scoring finish and 9th consecutive top 2 PPG finish, while winning 5 Art Rosses and only finishing behind players who will all be inside the top 50 all-time, with his own injuries having an effect on some of those non first finishes?

And who knows? Maybe he comes back from the suspension and wins the whole damn thing any way.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

And

Florida was one of the best regular season teams in recent memory and had a ton of firepower. They led the league with 337 goals, which was 52 more than Edmonton. Whatever you’re trying to say isn’t the flex you think it is.

The difference between McDavid and Crosby is basically right there in front of your face. McDavid beats out the stars align everything gone right peak seasons that crop up each year, and Crosby loses to similar players or worse (Benn). There’s no doubt in my mind that Crosby would cave and lose to Huberdeau and Gaudreau’s perfect storm seasons, or simply get wiped out by McDavid himself if they were the same age.

Why not mention how he decimated everyone in the seasons that sandwich 2021-2022? Or how he’s currently working on what will likely be his 9th consecutive top 3 raw scoring finish and 9th consecutive top 2 PPG finish, while winning 5 Art Rosses and only finishing behind players who will all be inside the top 50 all-time, with his own injuries having an effect on some of those non first finishes?

And who knows? Maybe he comes back from the suspension and wins the whole damn thing any way.

And the Stars in 2015 were second in the league in scoring and scored 257 goals to 217 for Pittsburgh that year. You're starting to get it though, turns out when you play a really offensive style your players will put up points.

 

[Video Nasty]

And
And the Stars in 2015 were second in the league in scoring and scored 257 goals to 217 for Pittsburgh that year. You're starting to get it though, turns out when you play a really offensive style your players will put up points.

McDavid won. Crosby lost. Next.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

These guys this year have similar or lower ppg then crosby did in 11-13 in a far softer high scoring league. With smaller goalies. 3 on 3. Far more empty net situations. 13 crosby is easily running away with the scoring race