Who Had More Pure Ability: Gretzky Or Lemieux?

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Post age 27

Gretzky: 7x AST, 5x top 5 hart, 3x Ross (8x top 10 pts), 8x assists leader, 7x 100+pts, 9x 90+pts, smythe

Lemieux: 4x AST, 4x top 5 hart, 3x Ross (4x top 10 pts), 1x rocket, 2x assists leader, 3x 100+pts, 4x 90+pts

If Gretzky post 27 was "washed up" or "done" or whatever, then what was Lemieux post 27? Dog shit? Btw, this is without taking into consideration that Gretzky has 100s of extra GP than Lemieux at the same age.

 

[bobholly39]

Compare their respective GP before comparing PPG. Gretzky has played 8+ extra seasons worth of games than Lemieux (regular season + playoffs). Check their stats at the same age, same GP, etc and Gretzky is always miles ahead. If Gretzky retired after ~900 GP his PPG would be through the roof.

End of 90/91 season: 2142pts in 925 GP, 2.32 PPG.

So much for breaking those records. (you can also go by age, 100/200/300/etc GP, Gretzky is always ahead).

Yeah but so what? You're purposefully ignoring common sense.

Lemieux didn't start his career as strong as Gretzky. It took him till his 4th year to reach the level Gretzky reached by year 2. So if you compare 'fastest to game 100, 200, etc' Gretzky will always be ahead.

This doesn't change the fact that a healthy Lemieux does have a chance of beating some of Gretzky's records, which is what the poster said. Career goals (obvious), single season goal and points (not obvious, a chance though). He'd also have more art rosses than Gretzky, easily, had he been healthy in his prime.

I'd still expect Gretzky to be ahead all time though

 

[treple13]

Compare their respective GP before comparing PPG. Gretzky has played 8+ extra seasons worth of games than Lemieux (regular season + playoffs). Check their stats at the same age, same GP, etc and Gretzky is always miles ahead. If Gretzky retired after ~900 GP his PPG would be through the roof.

End of 90/91 season: 2142pts in 925 GP, 2.32 PPG.

So much for breaking those records. (you can also go by age, 100/200/300/etc GP, Gretzky is always ahead).

Lemieux peaked a lot later in his career than Gretzky, so it's not quite that simple. And Lemieux's missed time due to injury and retirement was all when he was still at or close to being the best in the game. Him playing those games isn't likely to change his p/g significantly.

Picking Gretzky isn't wrong. Thinking it's not close is wrong

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Then he should never be called the best player of all time if he was not prime at 27 freaking years old

This line of thinking makes absolutely zero sense...who the hell cares when his prime and peak was? In order to assess the player, you have to consider what his prime, peak, and entire career body of work was - in all 3 cases, clearly the best of any hockey player of all time. Never mind the fact that Gretzky followed one of the most normal aging curves of all time for a scoring forward.

Do you eat an ice cream sundae and say “this can not be the best ice cream sundae that I have ever eaten because the 13th bite did not taste the best”?

 

[La Bamba]

Gretzky - best team sports athlete of all time, unmatched ability but Mario comes closest

If you took away all of Gretzky's goals he'd still have the most points of all time. He is also the all-time leader in goals scored. Mind-boggling stats that get underrated

 

[GTA]

Gretzky - best team sports athlete of all time, unmatched ability but Mario comes closest

If you took away all of Gretzky's goals he'd still have the most points of all time. He is also the all-time leader in goals scored. Mind-boggling stats that get underrated

that would be Don Bradman. Gretzky is definitely up there though.

 

[K Fleur]

What about impure ability?

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Gretzky - best team sports athlete of all time, unmatched ability but Mario comes closest

If you took away all of Gretzky's goals he'd still have the most points of all time. He is also the all-time leader in goals scored. Mind-boggling stats that get underrated

MJ would have words.

 

[La Bamba]

MJ would have words.

View attachment 346073

MJ did not dominate basketball to the degree that Gretzky dominated hockey in his prime. Not even close.

MJ is def more famous and marketed tho

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

MJ did not dominate basketball to the degree that Gretzky dominated hockey in his prime. Not even close.

MJ is def more famous and marketed tho

Yeah... I don’t know about that. MJ also didn’t have near the supporting cast that Gretzky did.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I think this is the closest poll I've ever seen on HFBs when this many people participate.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Yeah... I don’t know about that. MJ also didn’t have near the supporting cast that Gretzky did.

Huh? MJ had Pippen and Rodman. Both of which were probably top 10 players in the league at the time. MJ is absolutely in the conversation for the GOAT(and probably is) but wasn't nearly as dominant as Gretzky. Which is mind boggling considering how good MJ was.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Huh? MJ had Pippen and Rodman. Both of which were probably top 10 players in the league at the time. MJ is absolutely in the conversation for the GOAT(and probably is) but wasn't nearly as dominant as Gretzky. Which is mind boggling considering how good MJ was.

Rodman averaged more than 10 points like once his whole career.

Those Oilers teams had way more talent than the Bulls squads imo.

Jordan won finals MVP every time his team won a championship. Wayner only won the Smyth twice. Jordan was more of a part of the Bulls success than Gretzky was for the Oilers.

A lot of that is because hockey is more of a team game than Basketball, but I do think there is a case for Jordan as the best player ever in team sports.

 

[MessierII]

Jordan won finals MVP every time his team won a championship. Wayner only won the Smyth twice. Jordan was more of a part of the Bulls success than Gretzky was for the Oilers.

Those awards aren’t comparable.

 

[Steven Toast]

Rodman averaged more than 10 points like once his whole career.

Do you even know about basketball? Rodman wasn't great for baskets...

This is equivalent to critiquing Chara's game because he's never gotten 20 goals in a season.

Wayner only won the Smyth twice.

You can't compare the Smythe awarding in the 80's with the NBA Finals MVP. If the NHL had decided the Smythe in the same way the NBA did Gretzky would have won the Smythe every time the Oilers won the Cup with him.

The bottom line is Gretzky is the near unanimous GOAT in hockey. Its a much closer, and there interesting conversation for the GOAT in basketball.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Do you even know about basketball? Rodman wasn't great for baskets...

This is equivalent to critiquing Chara's game because he's never gotten 20 goals in a season.

Rodman was a good player, but he wasn’t comparable to the great players on the Oilers.

Messier is a two-time Hart winner and Coffey won, what three Norris trophies?

Pippen was great, no doubt about that. I just think Gretzky had more elite talent around him.

 

[Steven Toast]

Rodman was a good player, but he wasn’t comparable to the great players on the Oilers.

Your correct, they are completely different sports. The 80's Oilers never had an all time great defensive player on their rosters. And I don't even know was the hockey equivalent to a rebound is. Rodmen was potentially the best rebounder ever.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Lemieux was more of a complete package as Gretzky, and therefore, had more abilities.

 

[The Abusement Park]

Rodman averaged more than 10 points like once his whole career.

Those Oilers teams had way more talent than the Bulls squads imo.

Jordan won finals MVP every time his team won a championship. Wayner only won the Smyth twice. Jordan was more of a part of the Bulls success than Gretzky was for the Oilers.

A lot of that is because hockey is more of a team game than Basketball, but I do think there is a case for Jordan as the best player ever in team sports.

Ok but Rodman was arguably the greatest rebounder and greatest defensive player in NBA history. Points wasn’t his thing.

MJ is unbelievable and a GOAT level player, but Gretzky was so far ahead of everyone outside of maybe Lemieux and Orr it isn’t even funny.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Your correct, they are completely different sports. The 80's Oilers never had an all time great defensive player on their rosters. And I don't even know was the hockey equivalent to a rebound is. Rodmen was potentially the best rebounder ever.

Rodman was never Coffey/Messier level. Not even close.

Maybe Kurri? Though I think Kurri would be considered more impactful.

Anyways, I don’t want to upset the Oil fans out there. I just think there’s a legit argument for Jordan.

 

[Steven Toast]

Rodman was never Coffey/Messier level. Not even close.

Maybe Kurri? Though I think Kurri would be considered more impactful.

Anyways, I don’t want to upset the Oil fans out there. I just think there’s a legit argument for Jordan.

Imagine stating "Rodman only got 10 points averaged once" and thinking its a legit argument against Rodman. You clearly know little about basketball if you are saying that.

Comparing greats in hockey and basketball is apples to oranges. A single great player in basketball has far more ability to tilt a game. There are going to be playing 3/4 or more of the available time.

Did the 80's Oilers have more depth than the 90's bulls? Sure. Hockey teams by definition always have more depth, so this really isn't a fair question. 4 lines playing more or less equal time vs starters playing most of the game. Its a fundamental difference in how teams are structured.

The bottom line is Gretzky is the near unanimous GOAT in hockey MJ is not nearly as unanimous.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Ok but Rodman was arguably the greatest rebounder and greatest defensive player in NBA history. Points wasn’t his thing.

MJ is unbelievable and a GOAT level player, but Gretzky was so far ahead of everyone outside of maybe Lemieux and Orr it isn’t even funny.

He was a great defensive player. Definitely not the best all time. Mutombo, Wallace, prime Howard, Leonard, Olajuwon, were all better imo.

I think Jordan won 7 straight scoring titles, so he was really unmatched too.

I just don’t think that Bulls teams win any championships without Jordan where as that Oilers team probably wins 2, or 3 without Gretzky.

 

[Northern Avs Fan]

Imagine stating "Rodman only got 10 points averaged once" and thinking its a legit argument against Rodman. You clearly know little about basketball if you are saying that.

Comparing greats in hockey and basketball is apples to oranges. A single great player in basketball has far more ability to tilt a game. There are going to be playing 3/4 or more of the available time.

Did the 80's Oilers have more depth than the 90's bulls? Sure. Hockey teams by definition always have more depth, so this really isn't a fair question. 4 lines playing more or less equal time vs starters playing most of the game. Its a fundamental difference in how teams are structured.

The bottom line is Gretzky is the near unanimous GOAT in hockey MJ is not nearly as unanimous.

Alright... I can do without the condescension. Bye.

 

[Steven Toast]

Alright... I can do without the condescension. Bye.

Only fair arguments from me. I rightly critiqued you for the Rodman comment. Sorry you are so overly sensitive.

 

[Stephen]

Post age 27

Gretzky: 7x AST, 5x top 5 hart, 3x Ross (8x top 10 pts), 8x assists leader, 7x 100+pts, 9x 90+pts, smythe

Lemieux: 4x AST, 4x top 5 hart, 3x Ross (4x top 10 pts), 1x rocket, 2x assists leader, 3x 100+pts, 4x 90+pts

If Gretzky post 27 was "washed up" or "done" or whatever, then what was Lemieux post 27? Dog shit? Btw, this is without taking into consideration that Gretzky has 100s of extra GP than Lemieux at the same age.

Well, Lemieux was diagnosed with cancer at 27, missed most of 2 seasons with back injuries in 1994 and all of1995 and went into retirement for 3 years after 1997 so have a little respect. When he was around he was phenomenal.

Would be curious to see Lemieux’s stats totals from the early 80s between 1980 and 1984 had he been Gretzky’s age. Those were some high scoring years he didn’t have the chance to feast on and feast he would have.