Who are the top 15 C in the league currently?

[boltsfan86]

I literally just wrote in that post that NHL lists him as a C. The website is a bad source for positions. This is well known.

Even strength time includes things like empty net and 3 on 3, and every team with two strong centers plays both on the same PP. 5v5 is actual lines, and my numbers are correct. 65% of the time Draisaitl plays without McDavid. 61% of the time, McDavid plays without Draisaitl.

But even if we use your numbers, you realize that if he plays with McDavid 40% and 46% of the time, that’s not the majority, right?

Presented without comment.

If I am not mistaken, AM is on pace for about 30 goals and 70 points this season. I don't think that puts him miles ahead of Eichel/Point/Barkov...

Fair critique. I am just a sheep that considers Matthews to be an elite player and don't want to be the guy to argue he's not. Also he missed time due to injury, I think his per 60s are still all-world

 

[Regal]

View attachment 976220
Presented without comment.


Fair critique. I am just a sheep that considers Matthews to be an elite player and don't want to be the guy to argue he's not. Also he missed time due to injury, I think his per 60s are still all-world

I believe that only includes games they both played in.

 

[boltsfan86]

Youre focused on the Bolts, which is fine, but the same argument goes for a lot of NHL.com's listing of positions. My main one is Draisaitl and McDavid. Both are centers but they play 46.5% together (current 24-25 stats, other years are even more). So its silly to me they are both considered centers on everyones list when the majority of their point production comes when someone isnt playing center.

Would both be the 1C on 90% of other teams? Yes, but one of them technically plays wing for nearly 50% of their entire ice time.


Tell that to NHL.comView attachment 976216

And I am not incorrect. I literally jsut did the math. It is 40% of even strength time and 46 and change accounting for PP time which I think we all agree McDavid is the center even if he isnt taking the faceoffs right?

Yeah, I'm mostly focused on your initial claim that Point isn't a top 15 center because he's not really a center, which, by just about all accounts, isn't true.

I believe that only includes games they both played in.

View attachment 976222

Well, that's even more convincing.

 

[123offtheglass]

Why would @tarheelhockey rather have Hischier instead of Aho on the Canes?

They wouldn't, they have Jodan Staal.

 

[benfranklin]

I literally just wrote in that post that NHL lists him as a C. The website is a bad source for positions. This is well known.

Even strength time includes things like empty net and 3 on 3, and every team with two strong centers plays both on the same PP. 5v5 is actual lines, and my numbers are correct. 65% of the time Draisaitl plays without McDavid. 61% of the time, McDavid plays without Draisaitl.

But even if we use your numbers, you realize that if he plays with McDavid 40% and 46% of the time, that’s not the majority, right?

"Majority", yes I understand the definition of the word and slightly exaggerated if we go off your math excluding ice time that is convenient for you even though it is still ice time. It is still an insane amount more than any other team and their top two centers.

 

[Regal]

"Majority", yes I understand the definition of the word and slightly exaggerated if we go off your math excluding ice time that is convenient for you even though it is still ice time. It is still an insane amount more than any other team and their top two centers.

It’s not “convenient”. The idea that we would use the PP time together to suggest one isn’t a center is fundamentally flawed. All the best center combos play the first unit PP together. Malkin and Crosby, Forsberg and Sakic, Lemieux and Francis, Gretzky and Messier, etc etc.

Regardless, your math still shows they play the majority of their time apart. If a player is playing center more than winger, what else would we call him? Are you suggesting we should call him a winger when he plays fewer minutes there?

 

[TopCheese]

1. Mackinnon
2. Mcdavid
3. Draisaitl

4.Barkov
5.Matthews
6. Point
7. Eichel

8. Hughes
9. Scheifele
10.Hischier
11. Crosby
12. Miller
13. Aho
14. Petterson
15. Larkin

 

[Hazy Little Thing]

Lol at calling Draisaitl primarily a winger. Just not based in reality.

 

[boltsfan86]

Lol at calling Draisaitl primarily a winger. Just not based in reality.

Calling Draisaitl a winger just because sometimes he's on the ice with another center is like calling the fourth forward on some five on four powerplays a defenseman just because there are three other forwards on the ice.

 

[surixon]

If we are just talking about this year:

1) Mack
2) Drai
3) McDavid
4) Barkov
5) Eichel
6) Point
7) Mathews
8) Scheifele
9) Aho
10) D.Strome

 

[BoneDocUK]

Just my opinion. Aho is a great player but I wouldn't call him a game-breaker on offense or defense. Scheifele is a total gamechanger on offense since he's above a point per game with 30 goals already. Aho is a point per game with almost a dozen fewer goals.

At 5 on 5 this year, Scheifele has near double Aho's goals (16 to 9), more assists, (16 to 13), more primary assists (11 to 10), and more points (32 to 22). Scheifele has also drawn more penalties at 5 on 5 by a wide margin (21 to 10) while taking the same number of penalties. He has more hits (42 to 36), and has blocked more shots (39 to 17,.

Plus, Scheifele has been on the ice for 48 goals for and 39 goals against. Aho has been on the ice for 36 goals for and 46 goals against. You might not think that stat is super important, but I do. Not to mention, in one more game played, Scheifele has logged ~173 more minutes played at 5 on 5.

Aho is probably better at defense overall, and he's certainly better at faceoffs, but the fact remains that the VAST majority of Aho's points (33 of his 55) have come in situations other than 5-on-5, which is where the bulk of the game is played. Scheifele is simply dominant at 5-on-5 (8th most points in the NHL among Centers at 5-on-5) while Aho ranks THIRD among Centers ON HIS OWN TEAM (and he's fourth if you consider Necas a Center). So that's where I really draw the line. His solid defense isn't enough to put him in the same echelon as Scheifele (at least for me).

Great post — paints a far more nuanced picture of two players I have long admired and should understand better.

 

[boltsfan86]

Great post — paints a far more nuanced picture of two players I have long admired and should understand better.

Thanks. All the stats are from Natural Stat Trick in case you're into the analytical stuff and stats beyond the ones you'll get on NHL dot com. Here is the link if you want to explore more stats
Natural Stat Trick

 

[GreeningOil]

Yep, I'm not gonna pretend Point is top 5 (he may have been for stretches of his career, but not overall and not right now) but anyone who doesn't think he's top 10 just simply hasn't watched the guy play.

Scheifele could be back door top 10 and I wouldn't argue with you depending on who he's in over. He's been a great player for a while.


From a sheer talent POV, Thompson has to be top 10, but you're right, it's hard to know what the ceiling on that guy really is on such a poor team. Awesome player though, so fun to watch

He’s totally unbelievable. At his full potential (I like to imagine him on the Oilers) he would be absolutely lethal

 

[Dr John Carlson]

PSA: If you feel like throwing a bone to the Capitals and want to include one of their centres, the correct choice is Dubois, not Strome.

 

[TBF1972]

Inspired by a discussion I had on the topic in my team's board got me wondering what is the general opinion about the ranking of the top 15 centers in the league currently.

I find it is a tougher exercise to rank them than to go simply by tier. So here is my attempt:

1. McDavid
2. Mackinnon
3. Draisaitl
4. Barkov
5. Matthews
6. Hughes
7. Eichel
8. Crosby
9. Point
10. Aho


11-15 gets harder IMO, with options like Kopitar, Reinhart, Necas, Scheifele, Suzuki, Larkin, Stutzle, Celibrini and Bedard all ranking similarily.

But if I had to chose I think the remaining 4 would go to Kopitar, Suzuki, Celibrini and Stutzle.

What is yours.

not enough hischier

 

[Jetcetera]

People love to overrated Matthews on here.

 

[benfranklin]

It’s not “convenient”. The idea that we would use the PP time together to suggest one isn’t a center is fundamentally flawed. All the best center combos play the first unit PP together. Malkin and Crosby, Forsberg and Sakic, Lemieux and Francis, Gretzky and Messier, etc etc.

Regardless, your math still shows they play the majority of their time apart. If a player is playing center more than winger, what else would we call him? Are you suggesting we should call him a winger when he plays fewer minutes there?

PP is one of three situations you named. EN situations where both would likely be out at the same time, winning or losing. Were just going to ignore positions then? 3v3. Same deal, its just make pretend ice time to throw out. Shorthanded? I know its minimal, but we throw out positions then too?

Completing eliminating statistics that are "even strength" is ridiculous. A large portion of the game is played outside of even strength and guess what, the center position is still played then.

McDavid is the center and Draisaitl parks his ass in the corner doing nothing besides watching someone else do all the work so he can rip a onsie, or a turnover and he is last to backcheck because hes parked in his office.

Some statistics here to dive into

W McDavid ES: 38 GF, 21 GA
W/O McDavid ES: 20 GF, 11 GA

 

[Duke74]

PP is one of three situations you named. EN situations where both would likely be out at the same time, winning or losing. Were just going to ignore positions then? 3v3. Same deal, its just make pretend ice time to throw out. Shorthanded? I know its minimal, but we throw out positions then too?

Completing eliminating statistics that are "even strength" is ridiculous. A large portion of the game is played outside of even strength and guess what, the center position is still played then.

McDavid is the center and Draisaitl parks his ass in the corner doing nothing besides watching someone else do all the work so he can rip a onsie, or a turnover and he is last to backcheck because hes parked in his office.

Some statistics here to dive into

W McDavid ES: 38 GF, 21 GA
W/O McDavid ES: 20 GF, 11 GA

I humbly extend my regret that Draisaitl hurt you deeply in some way. Please get some help.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

PP is one of three situations you named. EN situations where both would likely be out at the same time, winning or losing. Were just going to ignore positions then? 3v3. Same deal, its just make pretend ice time to throw out. Shorthanded? I know its minimal, but we throw out positions then too?

Completing eliminating statistics that are "even strength" is ridiculous. A large portion of the game is played outside of even strength and guess what, the center position is still played then.

McDavid is the center and Draisaitl parks his ass in the corner doing nothing besides watching someone else do all the work so he can rip a onsie, or a turnover and he is last to backcheck because hes parked in his office.

Some statistics here to dive into

W McDavid ES: 38 GF, 21 GA
W/O McDavid ES: 20 GF, 11 GA

Bro has nightmares about Leon Draisaitl every night

 

[Regal]

PP is one of three situations you named. EN situations where both would likely be out at the same time, winning or losing. Were just going to ignore positions then? 3v3. Same deal, its just make pretend ice time to throw out. Shorthanded? I know its minimal, but we throw out positions then too?

Completing eliminating statistics that are "even strength" is ridiculous. A large portion of the game is played outside of even strength and guess what, the center position is still played then.

McDavid is the center and Draisaitl parks his ass in the corner doing nothing besides watching someone else do all the work so he can rip a onsie, or a turnover and he is last to backcheck because hes parked in his office.

Some statistics here to dive into

W McDavid ES: 38 GF, 21 GA
W/O McDavid ES: 20 GF, 11 GA

3 on 3 is barely hockey and empty net situations are the same as the power play, where the best players regularly get put out together. Your responses just repeatedly show that you’re not interested in actual discussion because they ignore all knowledge of how the game is played.

And once again, you ignore the crux of the argument that is that even if you include all ice time, he still plays more minutes away from McDavid, so if he’s still a center more than winger, then what should he be listed as? Do you just leave him off both center and winger lists? You’re just biased against the Oilers stars because of their comparisons to MacKinnon just as you’re biased against Hughes from the comparisons to Makar.

I’m not sure what these statistics are trying to prove. That he has a better GF% away from McDavid?

 

[Duke74]

I’m not sure what these statistics are trying to prove. That he has a better GF% away from McDavid?

He's literally contradicted himself countless times.

 

[eviohh26]

He's literally contradicted himself countless times.

It's all he does when it comes to Vancouver and Edmonton.

 

[Johniac]

I think some of the posters are really undervaluing a key talent that Aho brings. He is very defensively responsible and consistently contributes on offense at a high level, but he is not known as flashy. While Scheifele and Hischier are great players in their own ways, they are significantly below Aho for shorthanded goals and points. Aho plays well defensively on the PK, but he also excels at turning that defense into shorthanded opportunities, for example:

Scheifele 853 games played 2 shorthanded goals 8 assists
Hischier 503 games played 6 shorthanded goals 11 assists
Aho 653 games played 19 shorthanded goals 28 assists

That is quite a stark difference.

 

[FissionFire]

If are talking current season only then Strome deserves some consideration.

 

[boltsfan86]

He’s totally unbelievable. At his full potential (I like to imagine him on the Oilers) he would be absolutely lethal

I think he and McDavid would be deadly on the rush but I don't think he's not hitting his full potential in Tampa. Kuch and Point have been one of the top duos (probably second most productive to McDrai) over the last few years. But would be cool to see him and McDavid together at the 4 Nations.

If are talking current season only then Strome deserves some consideration.

I have him juuuust outside the top 15, but he could easily be in there.