Who are the greatest All Tools/No Toolbox players of all-time?

[vadim sharifijanov]

Jim Sandlak is a classic "all the tools but no toolbox" kinda guy. He was a highly touted prospect who went #4 overall and huge things were expected of him, as he had the tools to be a power forward: "He's big! He can hit! He can shoot! He's big!" But he never developed into much beyond a struggling third-liner for the Canucks. After the embarrassment of trading Cam Neely, the Canucks held onto him way too long, hoping he'd develop into another Neely. But he never hit as much as he could have, he looked lost most of the time and his booming slapshot missed the net far more often than not.

During the 80s, the Canucks drafted a succession of defencemen in the first round, all of whom were projected for first pairing spots, all supposedly potential stars: Rick Lanz, Garth Butcher, Michel Petit and JJ Daigneault. All of them had solid junior pedigree and were ranked high by Central Scouting and The Hockey News, but none of them reached that potential. Lanz actually made it to a top pairing role for a few seasons and was given the PP quarterback role, but it always looked like he was punching above his weight, and pretty much disappeared as a presence after being dealt to the Leafs. Butcher was awful in his first couple of seasons but was kept on the team for his toughness - he eventually did okay and accepted his role as #4-5 stay at home type. Michel Petit never really found his identity and struggled his whole career, and Daigneault later accepted a role as a bottom pairing guy for the Habs and other teams, which extended his career. But watching all of these guys together on the Canucks blueline during their darkest years was like watching the Ice Follies.

rick lanz, eventually traded to toronto for... jim benning

but what was worse, that mid-80s core of butcher, lidster, lanz, halward and busting petit and daigneault, or some of these recent quinn hughes + human garbage bluelines that benning put together? the tom watt teams were before my time, but they couldn't possibly have been this bad could they?

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

rick lanz, eventually traded to toronto for... jim benning

but what was worse, that mid-80s core of butcher, lidster, lanz, halward and busting petit and daigneault, or some of these recent quinn hughes + human garbage bluelines that benning put together? the tom watt teams were before my time, but they couldn't possibly have been this bad could they?

Comparable. The key difference is that back then, the Canucks had atrocious goaltending to go along with a bumbling defence group. The current and recent crop have been covered by Vezina-level goaltending.

 

[brachyrynchos]

kevin hatcher is interesting insofar as if you combined him with the guy he was traded for in his peak, mark tinordi, you'd have a probable hall of famer. imagine hatcher's shot and offensive skillset with tinordi's brain, defensive ability, and snarl. another example is pierre turgeon's puck skills and kirk muller's versatility, two-way game, and fieriness. or bertuzzi's abilities with trevor linden's clutchness, two-way game, versatility, and calm, level-headedness.

kevin hatcher is also an example of a guy where you combine him with his brother and they're a first ballot hall of famer, no questions asked. the koivus and courtnalls might come close if you added up all the best parts.

Yeah he's always been a strange case. Derian played a more physical game but wasn't as talented. Tinordi was slower and did a better job in his own end. So frustrating to watch wherever he went.

 

[MS]

Jack Johnson to me is the definitive example of this.

He's big! He can skate! He can rifle the puck! Devastating hitter! Nice puck skills for a defender!

But absolutely dumb as shit and a terrible player as a result who has been a liability almost everywhere he's gone for his whole career.

 

[MXD]

Perlini is only a shot.

Jonathan Drouin is pretty emblematic of this. Oozes skill. Good skater. Great stickhandler. Can make some jawdropping passes. While not a rocket, seems to have good placement and solid velocity for a shot.

Something kept him from putting all of that together at the NHL level.

Well, he has some long-term issue with a wrist that's been hampering his shot

He's something of a Kovalev-light though : it's not that he has no toolbox, but the toolbox's size isn't on par with the amount of tools he has, so he can't really use all of his tools and, thus, ends up being disappointing and not making of most of his skills.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

IMO, Kovalchuk had the tools to be even better than Ovechkin if he could put it all together consistently, but he basically skated around with tunnel vision all the time

 

[Gilles Meloche]

Ric Jackman
Patrick O’Sullivan
Lonny Bohonos maybe??

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Comparable. The key difference is that back then, the Canucks had atrocious goaltending to go along with a bumbling defence group. The current and recent crop have been covered by Vezina-level goaltending.

It seemed for a while that Vancouver just couldn't have good players. There were guys who put up some points, but largely only because someone had to play on the power play and it was the 80's.
Sandlak was a sore spot, but there were some other stinkers too, like...
Steve Tambellini - could really skate and stickhandle, but only between the two bluelines.
Moe Lemay - tried to be an agitating scorer... wasn't good at either
Jose Charboneau - Q scorer

Our D in that era outright sucked. But historically, we've never really had a "great" one (we'll see about Hughes). Typically, they were largely all toolbox no tools... the ones that didn't have nothing at all.

Watching those '80's teams team literally get smacked around by the Alberta squads on the regular still leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

 

[Big Phil]

Alexei Kovalev was born for this thread, I think.

Also, who remembers Rob Schremp?

I remember Sheldon Keefe as a junior player, but his attitude and his agent (David Frost) killed him.

Alex Daigle comes to mind

 

[BobbyAwe]

Bob Murdock
Pierre Larouche
Tom Lysiak
Miles zaharko
Petr Nedhead
Tony Currie
Mirislav Frycar
Ian white

I think Larouche fits the bill as the best pick so far in the thread.

I don't know if this is a different category, cause this guy never really had ANY really good seasons, but my pick as the biggest disappointment, considering his skills, is RYAN SPOONER. (But maybe that's just because I'm a Bruin's fan? )

 

[BobbyAwe]

Also Jacques Richard.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Jack Johnson to me is the definitive example of this.

He's big! He can skate! He can rifle the puck! Devastating hitter! Nice puck skills for a defender!

But absolutely dumb as shit and a terrible player as a result who has been a liability almost everywhere he's gone for his whole career.

1000 games. One. Thousand. Hard to believe haha - also just 30 (really 26, with that lockout qualifying nonsense) in the playoffs, never past the first round. Never even to a game 7 in the first round.

He's had one plus season. It was with a 50-win Columbus team in 2017. He's got a plus going right now on a Colorado team that will certainly win 50 games as well.

 

[MS]

1000 games. One. Thousand. Hard to believe haha - also just 30 (really 26, with that lockout qualifying nonsense) in the playoffs, never past the first round. Never even to a game 7 in the first round.

He's had one plus season. It was with a 50-win Columbus team in 2017. He's got a plus going right now on a Colorado team that will certainly win 50 games as well.

After 15 years he's found a niche this year as a #6 defender on a powerhouse team.

Rasmus Ristolainen is basically halfway through the same career arc right now.

 

[psycat]

Pavel Brendl?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Was Brendl no toolbox or just didn't take the game seriously? There's a major difference there, if there was one in this case...

 

[Sturminator]

Carol Vadnais comes immediately to mind for me. Tremendously talented knucklehead, that one.

 

[Kaners Bald Spot]

I always thought Radim Vrbata had the talent to be a star but he was only average, sometimes.
He put it together a bit later in his career but a career high of 62 pts seems low for his talent level.

 

[crobro]

Martin lapointe

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

It seemed for a while that Vancouver just couldn't have good players. There were guys who put up some points, but largely only because someone had to play on the power play and it was the 80's.
Sandlak was a sore spot, but there were some other stinkers too, like...
Steve Tambellini - could really skate and stickhandle, but only between the two bluelines.
Moe Lemay - tried to be an agitating scorer... wasn't good at either
Jose Charboneau - Q scorer

Our D in that era outright sucked. But historically, we've never really had a "great" one (we'll see about Hughes). Typically, they were largely all toolbox no tools... the ones that didn't have nothing at all.

Watching those '80's teams team literally get smacked around by the Alberta squads on the regular still leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.

Ditto to everything.

Even the D we brought in through trade generally had the same problems - great expectations, but could rarely put together more than one or two half-decent seasons - Kevin McCarthy, Doug Halward, Jim Benning fit this description. Canucks of the 80s typically got more mileage out of guys like Harold Snepsts, Colin Campbell or Lars Lindgren - guys who weren't expected to shoulder the load of being in a top pairing, and who could play stay at home D for the succession of Canucks D-minded coaches. It was a real breath of fresh air when we got Paul Reinhart - finally! an elite blueliner! So much better than what we had before, but unfortunately on his last legs. We got lucky with Doug Lidster who turned out better than most before him. Quinn started to restructure the blueline in the late 80s-early 90s and it really gave the team a chance, finally.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Jack Johnson to me is the definitive example of this.

He's big! He can skate! He can rifle the puck! Devastating hitter! Nice puck skills for a defender!

But absolutely dumb as shit and a terrible player as a result who has been a liability almost everywhere he's gone for his whole career.

In Michigan a lot of the fans would say, "But...he's got great fundamentals!" as a way of excusing Johnson's numerous defensive gaffes. One of the dumbest players I've ever watched have such a long career.

Brendan Smith is another guy that could have been a pretty solid defender but some of his decisions are definitely head scratching.

Jakub Kindl was a terrific skater and stickhandler, had a good shot and was a pretty good passer. But man...he would make some absolutely brutal decisions.

 

[Iron Mike Sharpe]

I don't really think guys like Pierre Larouche and Alexei Kovalev quite fit the criteria. They had the tools and the toolboxes, it's just that sometimes they left their toolboxes at home.

 

[crobro]

Miroslav frycar could stick handle his way through everyone but the goalie

 

[TheDawnOfANewTage]

Maxim Afinegenov, all speed and stick-handling, **** hockey-iq and hands. Useless at anything else and was a very frustrating player to see or have on your team as you could see him tearing up a whole defence like he was Mario Lemiuex once in a while.

Martin Straka, all speed.

Afinegonov was a very talented guy. Like Kovalev but with speed. But he actually peaked out as over a PPG player on some great Buffalo teams without "peak" ice time.

The guy was awesome to watch at times and was not nearly as great as his skills seemed he could be. But he peaked high. Not elite but very good.

I kinda like discussing players like Afinegenov and Russ Courtnall or Al Iafrate or Kovalev. Pretty good players. Still memorable to talk about 20 or 30 years later.

Are these guys really "failures", or didn't do enough? Are these the guys to discuss as "disappointments"?

Guys that played over a decade and made millions and even had fans of opposing teams remembering them and telling their kids about them in awe of some sick plays decades later? Just because they weren't HHOFers like Sakic or Yzerman or something... they are still not that great? While I guess they are not that "great" but still pretty memorable. I will always remember Russ Courtnall skating like a small little beast and being both quick and fast. A harder combo then is usually understood.

Or say my teams guy Havlat. Havlat was slick and sick and did some crazy stuff. Had injuries and no longevity... and was only sometimes seemingly at his best.

I mean I love me some Hossa amd Alfredsson. But Havlat some games was just as awesome. Or moreso. Just was magical. Even Hawks fans should remember him as their bggest star in the playoffs just as their "dynasty" started. When they went from a crappy team to a winner.

If you talk about players with tools but no tool box. We shouldn't talk about Russ Courtnall. He was an excellent player for a very long time. Just not a HHOFer. Let's talk about Colin Greening. He was faster (apparently) then even young Erik Karlsson. He was stronger then everyone else on the team. He was an ox and a work out freak. And he got a degree from a top college. He was actually quite book smart and just smart. So he was fast and strong and smart. He just wasn't a great hockey player. He was an awesome athlete. He is gonna beat almost any NHLer in sprints or weightlifting or slap shot speed or even on his SATs. He just was only a below average NHL regular. Greening had all the tools.... but he just wasn't a great player. Great players are great players. They just have something special in them. There is no tool box. Robitaille could barely skate well and made the HHOF.

My first thought was Afinogenov- I think he was good for what he was, but it always just felt like he coulda been something special- Bure-lite or something. He had two very good years for Buffalo, but then regressed to 28 and then 20 points (albeit in much shortened seasons). Another good year in Atlanta and then he was off to the KHL. Idk, he’s my all-time “what if?” candidate. What if he found linemates he actually worked with, what if he played for someone besides Ruff? I appreciate Ruff more now, but dealing with a mercurial winger wouldn’t seem his strong suit. In reality I feel like he wasn’t really the best thinking passer, his shot was horribly inaccurate, but it also feels like someone coulda focused on those flaws in the early years. He had so much speed that space just opened up all over the ice, if he could think/react half as fast as he moved he’d have been a force. Still one of my all-time favorites just because I loved him as a young fan, but he made some confusing plays even to my undeveloped brain back then.

Page 3 without a Yakupov shoutout?

Oh lawd, he wasn’t even that skilled, but ya, he’s gotta be in the top 5 of recent history.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I don't really think guys like Pierre Larouche and Alexei Kovalev quite fit the criteria. They had the tools and the toolboxes, it's just that sometimes they left their toolboxes at home.

maybe the way i’d put it is, they had really expensive tools, but just ok toolboxes, without all the special compartments and whatnot, and sometimes tools got mixed up and other times tools flat out went missing for a few months.

whereas tyler myers, those are some top notch tools that he’s trying to carry around with just his two hands, so he’s dropping stuff all over the place. but once in a blue moon he balances everything just right and he skates through entire teams and dominates guys on d, like what we all expected out of young bouwmeester.

most of the time though it feels like you are almost watching the gears squeakily grind inside his head. one of the lowest iq players i’ve ever seen, and most uncoordinated too. he’s a thirteen year vet and it’s like he’s never learned a thing in his life.

 

[aqsw]

Pierre Larouche
Bob Murdock
Doug Smith
Dean Sylvester
Jake Virtanen
Rob Brown
Doug Halward

I played alot with Smitty (RIP BUDDY), and I have time agree.