Whitecloud hit on Knies | Knies did not return to the game.

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I don’t get how we ended on the pk

Because the Refs tried to screw the Leafs tonight.

They failed

 

[Honour Over Glory]

When contact is made his feet are still on the ice.

People should just look at the rule... a hit to the head has to be both avoidable and the head has to be the main point of contact. EVEN if people grant the head is the main point of contact, the avoidable part has multiple criteria that all must be considered.

1. was the play player PICKING the head as their target by either having a poor angle of attack (nope), poor timing (nope), or unnecessary upward or outward extension (he does rise up and leaves his feet after contact)

Mostly a no, it wasnt late, wasnt blind side, no arm extension. Only could argue he rose up into the hit but at contact he was not any higher than normal standing height.

2. Was the person being hit in a vulnerable position where a clean hit that would otherwise hit body would make head contact? (this has to be a no to be fulfilled)

Absolutely yes. Knies is leaning forward so any standard clean body check to his front is going to make contact with his head unless the hitter is significantly shorter than he is.

3. Did the person getting hit significantly change their body position going into the hit to make themselves vulnerable?

Nope, Knies was already low for a while and didnt lower his head as the hit happened.

So the only criteria that totally fulfils the "avoidable" provision is the third one, as Knies didnt change body position into the hit in a way that put himself in danger. Criteria 1 is very much a maybe. Every player is eligible to being hit with a clean hit. If they arent approached late or from a blind side or there isnt body extension that is done to specifically make head contact, its not a dirty hit. Criteria 2 is not met at all for being avoidable.

I would not interpret it as an illegal check to the head by the letter of the law. It COULD be interpreted as one if you are pretty charitable with the first criteria. The wording after 2014 was changed to remove the word "targeting". It used to be a hit where principle contact was head and it targeted the head. By that rule this absolutely isnt illegal since this isnt targeting. Now the rule is main point of contact (doesnt have to be first, has to be where majority impact is) is the head and is avoidable.

So a very charitable reading of the rule would make it a MAYBE, but it isnt anything like Reaves or Jeannot. In no world does it meet all criteria for being avoidable either. Maybe a minor penalty, but a major or suspension wouldnt make sense here. Since he didnt get a minor, if it looks like theres going to be a real injury then maybe a game could be argued, but I wouldnt go further than a fine myself (and only because a minor penalty wasnt assessed).

I personally wish this type of hit WAS against the rules though, that they moved towards an IIHF style "any head contact is an illegal hit" but I am a medical professional so I am biased.

I do agree with your last bit. The NHL pretends CTE isn't related but the NHLPA doesn't agree and created a committee. So if they went this route there's zero gray area.

The issue is there's a lot of gray area. The IIHF sees it more black and white, cut and dry. The NHL adopts this and there's no debate anymore.

Because the Refs tried to screw the Leafs tonight.

They failed

Because refs deemed it a clean hit and then Benoit is tagged for roughing for 4mins. Seemed pretty self explanatory so there's no confusion, as simple as it could be.

 

[Craig Button]

You are the poster child for the point I made - but kudos to you for at least knowing where to locate the rule you don't understand.

When a hit comes from north-south contact, it is almost impossible for the head to be the "main" point of contact, That would essentially require the hitter to fly through the air parallel at head level. It is entirely legal to make head contact when the hit is through the center of the body as Whitecloud did (that is outlined in 48.1 (i) in the very rule you posted).

On Reaves hit, he came in at a 90-degree angle to Nurse, which makes it pretty easy to make contact with the head while making minimal contact with the body - making the head the "main" point of contact (the hit did not warrant the 48.1 (i) or any other exception, so section48.5 in the rule you posted could be applied).

you are so delusional

 

[Dust]

Don't like seeing those types of hits where the outcome is going to be a concussion like 90% of the time, but I don't think it was dirty in any way. He didn't leave his feet, he didn't elbow him, but he catches a ton of the heads which I hate to see. I'd be fine with the NHL adopting the IIHF hits to the head rule so this would actually be a penalty and maybe eliminate these types of plays that are taking years off guys careers.

 

[frontsfan67]

Oh the irony of leafs fans complaining about this when there was “nothing wrong” with the reaves hit

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I do agree with your last bit. The NHL pretends CTE isn't related but the NHLPA doesn't agree and created a committee. So if they went this route there's zero gray area.

The issue is there's a lot of gray area. The IIHF sees it more black and white, cut and dry. The NHL adopts this and there's no debate anymore.


Because refs deemed it a clean hit and then Benoit is tagged for roughing for 4mins. Seemed pretty self explanatory so there's no confusion, as simple as it could be.

It's the EXACT SAME HIT as Ryan Reaves

 

[2014nyr]

the only thing about this hit that looks questionable is whether or not his feet were on the ice. otherwise, he went square through the target with the elbow tucked on the puck carrier. that's allowed in hockey. nobody wants to see injuries, but it's not on whitecloud that knies was leaning forward with his head down. that's the reason his head was part of the contact, not because whitecloud was targeting it. if you want the rule to be that you can't hit someone because their head is down then the nhl isn't for you.

i haven't watched it super close but, as i said, the one potential issue here is leaving the feet. i don't know if he did or didn't have them on the ice at contact, but if they're off, then yes that part would make it a hit that probably gets him a game. it's absurd how many people always conclude that upward motion in open ice hits is to hit the head though...that's just admitting you have no idea what you're talking about. that's just a function of physics in making an open ice hit...to deliver an open ice hit, you have to meet the guy skating at you, a person skating backwards, by loading into your lower body and using that to launch into the hit. how the hell else are you going to deliver a hit without forward momentum. as long as your feet are on the ice at contact, it's legal. it's something that's not easy to get the timing right on, but it's not trying to hit someone's head when feet aren't on the ice, it's virtually always just the hit not being timed right.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

It's the EXACT SAME HIT as Ryan Reaves

It definitely isn't.

 

[LemonSauceD]

Good hit.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

It definitely isn't.

How so? principal point of cpntact is the head, WhiteCloud leaves his feet, there was an injury on the play.

How is it different?

It's the EXACT same hit.

 

[winnipegger]

I know I sound callous but Knies put himself in a very vulnerable position.

 

[Seras]

It was a head shot but not the head, he hit him in the other head not the same head tho.

I don't understand what's so confusing about this people.

Good hit.

Agreed, elbow to the head then head to the ice that's what I like to see out there.

 

[Yepthatsme]

Here we have two players. One is in a low stance, arms tucked, trying to stop an offensive player. He is doing everything right. The other is skating up the ice with the puck, in a hunched position with his head the most forward point of his body. He is the one making head contact unavoidable.

Skating with your head down in a dangerous position is the problem here, not the hit. Hopefully a physical player like Knies will learn from this and not put himself in bad situations in the future.

 

[Dreakmur]

How so? principal point of cpntact is the head, WhiteCloud leaves his feet, there was an injury on the play.

How is it different?

It's the EXACT same hit.

There’s probably 50 differences between the two hits….

It was a head shot but not the head, he hit him in the other head not the same head tho.

I don't understand what's so confusing about this people.

It’s only confusing if you don’t understand that not all contact to the head is illegal.

 

[klmdg]

View attachment 933505
Here we have two players. One is in a low stance, arms tucked, trying to stop an offensive player. He is doing everything right. The other is skating up the ice with the puck, in a hunched position with his head the most forward point of his body. He is the one making head contact unavoidable.

Skating with your head down in a dangerous position is the problem here, not the hit. Hopefully a physical player like Knies will learn from this and not put himself in bad situations in the future.

Shockingly, everyone skating up ice in that pic is doing so hunched over with their heads being the most forward part

I wonder why that is?????????

 

[Yepthatsme]

Shockingly, everyone skating up ice in that pic is doing so hunched over with their heads being the most forward part

I wonder why that is?????????

…because they aren’t puck carriers and should not be expecting physical contact? Solved that riddle for you quick

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

There’s probably 50 differences between the two hits….



It’s only confusing if you don’t understand that not all contact to the head is illegal.

There is ONE difference.

Blood, and even that was caused by Nurses visor, not the actual hit.

 

[TIGERCOOL]

I don't think this is suspension worthy under the current ruleset. I also think that:
1. It should be
2. If a Leafs player committed the same hit there would be a hearing and probable 1-2 game suspension

 

[klmdg]

…because they aren’t puck carriers and should not be expecting physical contact? Solved that riddle for you quick

Then post a vid of someone skating up ice with the puck without being hunched forward

 

[Yepthatsme]

Then post a vid of someone skating up ice with the puck without being hunched forward then

I’ll save myself the work and just let you google “top 10 hits of 2024”. If you want to get crazy you can do 2023, 2022, or even 2021. Watch all the players take the same stance as whitecloud, and miraculously not pick head. I really don’t think I should have to do analysis on “player doesn’t skate with head down”.

Skating head forward does not magically remove the ability for players to not seperate player from puck. The onus is on the hitter to do everything possible to make a hit clean, the onus on the hittee is to make a clean hit possible.

To help you think about it, from that screen shot what would you like to see different from Whitecloud to ensure that’s a clean hit? Note that picture is 1/6th of a second before the hit occurs.

 

[HofT]

On contact, Knies' head moves first and independently from his body. No matter what, this is a penalty.

 

[egelband]

The hit was over the edge. I think there was some intention. Came right after Shea Theodore got boarded with no call. That said, had the refs called the first one this one might not happen.

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

It definitely isn't.

It definitely is.

 

[Yepthatsme]

View attachment 933508
On contact, Knies' head moves first and independently from his body. No matter what, this is a penalty.

Whitecloud would have had to be 18” shorter to avoid head contact in this replay. This isn’t the IIHF where head contact immediately makes a hit illegal, if you put yourself in a bad position to a guy who’s already committed to the hit it’s fair play.

 

[klmdg]

I’ll save myself the work and just let you google “top 10 hits of 2024”. If you want to get crazy you can do 2023, 2022, or even 2021. Watch all the players take the same stance as whitecloud, and miraculously not pick head.

Skating head forward does not magically remove the ability for players to not seperate player from puck. The onus is on the hitter to do everything possible to make a hit clean, the onus on the hittee is to make a clean hit possible.

That's it, move the goal posts

You are the one that blamed Knies for skating up ice while carrying the puck 'hunched forward'

That's how you f***ing skate forward

He had his head down and looked up too late

Had nothing to do with being hunched forward