WC: Which tournament is more important and more interesting?

[Jon Riley]

The World Championship has always been a fun tournament to watch. Pub, beer, friends, hockey, flags, national teams, etc.*

The World Cup simply is NOT an international tournament at the moment.

How the things are the Olympics is the only high level international tournament, while the world championship is just plain great fun, and I love it.

If the World Cup will eventually turn into something real,** then welcome to the World Cup that would have all the possibilities to become the best international tournament, but at the moment it means nothing to me.

*I like to see Hungary and all the "smaller" teams playing, I could not care less if the matches are one sided or if a team just tries to kill the game hoping for a lucky rebound. That is a perfectly legitimate way to play. The game is about findind the best way to try to win a match, is not and never will be just a skills showcase. A team that plays good defense will never bore me.

** That means national teams only, with equal possibilities of icing the best rosters. That means also having some sort of qualification round or criteria.

 

[Jussi]

Newsflash: The WJC is not best-on-best. Unless you think that Connor McDavid, Jack Eichel and Aaron Ekblad don't belong among the best.

Neither is Ivan Hlinka. Finns and Swedes often pick the best players from that age group to play with the U-20 team in Lake Placid.

 

[llwyd]

I guess it's in the name... The World Championships sound bit silly when so many great players are unavailable. Maybe you should think about it as a very prestigious IIHF Spring Tournament with great tradition and a great opportunity for especially the smaller hockey countries to showcase their strength. It's absolutely a fascinating and exciting tournament every year.

And the World Cup - a weird pre-season NHL all star tournament: hopefully no-one gets badly injured...

 

[yarre]

Stanley Cup
Olympics

WJH
World Cup







World Championship

 

[xxxx]

The World Cup simply is NOT an international tournament at the moment.

Neither is the Stanley Cup playoffs, but that doesn't mean it's worthless. It's about hockey. It's about the quality of what's going on the ice. It's about the passion and effort. The WC might not meet your criteria for an international tournament, but it beats the World champiomships, and basically every other top tournament, in all other areas.

 

[Lepardi]

N

Wow. Why we should care about the 72 Summit Series either. We were missing some good players after all.

Why were you missing them? Was it because of an asinine age limit that banned you from picking players under the age of 24? Cause that's what's happening with McDavid this time. And if Canada can't pick McDavid because he's too young, then Sweden shouldn't get to pick Landeskog and Finland shouldn't get to pick Barkov.

This has nothing to do with players missing tournaments due to injuries or lack of interest on their part. If McDavid said that he doesn't want to play for Team Canada, I'd be OK with it. I'm not OK with McDavid not getting to play for Canada even if he's healthy and willing to go and the team management wants to pick him.

This being said, I'll still be coming to the tournament from Finland. I'd decided to do that before they announced the idiotic gimmick teams. At least Finland gets to play Sweden's real national team.

 

[xxxx]

Why? This is about the legacy of one of the greatest Russian players of all time. This is his best chance at a Cup winning season. Why wouldn't you want him to win it? I get it that some Russians may not care about the Stanley Cup but it's still hockey's greatest achievement. How can you call yourself a fan of
Ovechkin and not want to see him win?

That right there is exactly the thing I see with many posters here. In a bit different way, but still. It seems to be a common point for those who don't care about WC. And the thing is that they don't really care what the players want to win. It's similar to Ovechkin and Washington/Russia. Do you want him to win the World Championships or Stanley Cup? Even though it's pretty clear what is higher, you choose the World Championships. The same goes for World Cup. You don't care about a tournament that players actually want to win. So what do you care about? Saying you are a fan of hockey and you don't care about the World Cup is the same as saying you are a fan of Crosby, but you don't care about him winning the Stanley Cup. And I'm not even mentioning the ridiculous World Championship > World Cup talk. Again, not a slight a bit of concern if the players actually feel that way.

 

[BayStreetBully]

That right there is exactly the thing I see with many posters here. In a bit different way, but still. It seems to be a common point for those who don't care about WC. And the thing is that they don't really care what the players want to win. It's similar to Ovechkin and Washington/Russia. Do you want him to win the World Championships or Stanley Cup? Even though it's pretty clear what is higher, you choose the World Championships. The same goes for World Cup. You don't care about a tournament that players actually want to win. So what do you care about? Saying you are a fan of hockey and you don't care about the World Cup is the same as saying you are a fan of Crosby, but you don't care about him winning the Stanley Cup. And I'm not even mentioning the ridiculous World Championship > World Cup talk. Again, not a slight a bit of concern if the players actually feel that way.

No, it's more like being a fan of Crosby and not caring about him winning the all-star game MVP. Because both the World Cup and the all-star game MVP are meaningless.

And the only people saying they don't care about the Stanley Cup is a few Russians. No one else agrees with them.

 

[Jon Riley]

Neither is the Stanley Cup playoffs, but that doesn't mean it's worthless. It's about hockey. It's about the quality of what's going on the ice. It's about the passion and effort. The WC might not meet your criterria for an international tournament, but it beats the World champiomships, and basically every other top tournament, in all other areas.

Well, if I just wanted to watch great hockey I already have the best tournament I can get, the Stanley cup play-offs. I get that you are not interested in those silly things that the national teams are, but I like to watch international sports. That is actually what I enjoy the most, probably.
When it comes to the quality of the game nothing will ever beat the Stanley Cup playoffs, but in international hockey I look for something else. Which I won't find in the world cup, no matter how good the hockey will be. If it will even be good, and I'm not sure about that.
The level of entertainment that the championship gives me is at the moment completely out of reach of the world-plus-something-else cup.

 

[xxxx]

No, it's more like being a fan of Crosby and not caring about him winning the all-star game MVP. Because both the World Cup and the all-star game MVP are meaningless.

Haha. Here is the thing - it's both having the same level of being meaningless TO YOU, not to him.

But maybe ask Crosby if he wants to win the All-star game or the World Cup. See how ridiculous it sounds?

 

[Harry22]

As fans, we want a best on best tournament and the Olympics give us that. However, the league has no benefits what so ever to do that. Non hockey fans will watch the Olympics but they won't watch the NHL afterwards, there has been no benefits for the league since 1998. They risk their assets to let the corrupt IOC makes loads of money with them. It's the equivalent as Apple letting someone use their developpers to make a brand new program and only the latter get the benefits, not Apple.

The World Cup is a fantastic idea. Tournaments create a buzz when it has a history attached to it. Canada Cup rarely generated interests outside of Canada and maybe Russia. The first two World Cups were ok, but the second one came right before the season-long lockout. The NHL/NHLPA have a chance to really create a best on best tournament if they do it right and maintain it. Team Europe and Team NA is fine this time around but I hope they stick to their word and create a qualifying round for 2020 and use only national teams from 2020 on.

My schedule would be this:
Top 6 national teams as ranked by the IIHF (or the NHL can create their own system to rank countries) by June 1st 2019, get automatic spots for the 2020 WC.

Next 8 national teams (rank 7 through 14) battle in out in a qualifying round in September 2019 for the remaining 2 spots.

WC in September 2020 with the 6 automatic qualifiers + 2 countries that qualified in 2019.

The WHC suck, as it's not truly best on best and it being every year, ruins everything.

 

[Harry22]

To answer the question:

World Cup. The world's best hockey players will participate.

 

[BayStreetBully]

Haha. Here is the thing - it's both having the same level of being meaningless TO YOU, not to him.

But maybe ask Crosby if he wants to win the All-star game or the World Cup. See how ridiculous it sounds?

It sure is ridiculous... because I didn't compare the all-star game to the World Cup.

YOU compared the World Cup to the Stanley Cup and THAT is just laughable. One is the pinnacle of league hockey, and the other is a joke of international hockey.

So I countered, and said the World Cup was to the Olympics what the all-star game is to the Stanley Cup.

 

[garbageteam]

1. Olympics AINEC. Comparable to the FIFA WC of the hockey world.

2. WJCs. The kids make their mistakes, it's fun and, well, people in this country get up for it. It's the second most popular legitimate international hockey event in NA.

3. WHCs. Kind of a playoff sideshow I admit, but you do get to see a lot of teams. I've always treated it as a nice round of international friendlies (coming from a football/soccer watching background by heritage) for teams to test their B and C teams. The hockey is actually sort of "competitive" because, except for last year when Canada basically brought their A-/B++ team, countries don't always dominate others and you see some second tier countries doing decently well by results.


Big gap


4. WC. Because it's an ASG gimmick when manufactured teams.



What is the most "competitive" (meaning, strongest possible team) is not necessarily the most important. Competition is manufactured. The league set a level of rules and standards for teams to follow fairly arbitrarily (this isn't rocket science nor was there a defensible research study for this sort of thing, this is a sports league). The ASG is more "competitive" than league play. Arbitrarily forcing the #1 in the league play the #2 in the league in a best of 7 series is more competitive than seeing where the chips fall in a playoff system. Putting Crosby and Ovechkin on the same team is more competitive. Having Barca play Real would have been more competitive than playing Juve.

And similarly, yes, A U23 NA team and a team of the best Leftover European players is potentially more competitive than Switzerland, Slovakia, Germany, Latvia or Denmark. Maybe. (with lack of pride on the line though...). But it doesn't make it any better or more compelling to watch. You don't just shoehorn the best players onto teams arbitrarily to make a more competitive product. It's just not how interesting spectator sports are made. Just extend it to the NHL hypothetically: Use the NHL Hand of God and put Ovechkin, Crosby and Kane on the same team with Karlsson and Doughty and Price and play them against a team with Malkin, Tarasenko and Seguin with Keith and Weber with Lundqvist. Great teams right? Awesome league to watch?

**** no. WC is the ASGs. WHC is the NHL with injuries.



So, just because a tourney with potentially stronger players and teams is playing in it does not automatically trump other factors and make it more important. There's a whole level of context missed in spectator sports, especially international spectator sports where it's not all about the game, but the countries and national identities involved. People who pay to watch an event at the Olympics or FIFA WC don't typically know much about the sport, nor do they research beforehand - they're just there to represent and support their fellow countrymen and couldn't care less if someone gets hammered or outmatched.

That's what international sportsmanship is about and it's time the NHL wakes up to 2016 and realizes there has been a very solid formula followed by other major sports of the world, and it doesn't involve making up arbitrary teams to fill up the numbers when there is a deluded perception that these teams will make it more interesting than two other very legitimate and strong teams. This is Slovakia and Switzerland we are talking about, not Poland and Estonia.

 

[Jablkon]

Neither is the Stanley Cup playoffs, but that doesn't mean it's worthless. It's about hockey. It's about the quality of what's going on the ice. It's about the passion and effort. The WC might not meet your criteria for an international tournament, but it beats the World champiomships, and basically every other top tournament, in all other areas.

Just in quality of hockey and just because of its invitational. When you can set up your own criteria, its easy to be best in something. 14900 people on Germany France match in 2015 WC. I guess this is quite a sign of passion....

 

[kabidjan18]

3. WHCs. Kind of a playoff sideshow I admit, but you do get to see a lot of teams. I've always treated it as a nice round of international friendlies (coming from a football/soccer watching background by heritage) for teams to test their B and C teams. The hockey is actually sort of "competitive" because, except for last year when Canada basically brought their A-/B++ team, countries don't always dominate others and you see some second tier countries doing decently well by results.

Basically this, very fun, very competitive, very useful preparation for bigger tournaments. (ie. Olympics, Olympics qualifications) That's why I hate "try-hard" teams at the WHC (cough cough France), because even the coaches of the lower level teams often bring lesser lineups and toy with systems because they're prepping for the one that will bring the country the most glory and the one that will be on TV not just for hockey fans but for people all across the nation.

 

[xxxx]

Just in quality of hockey and just because of its invitational. When you can set up your own criteria, its easy to be best in something. 14900 people on Germany France match in 2015 WC. I guess this is quite a sign of passion....

It is, and I was there so I can tell you it was great. But I'm talking about passion and effort from players.

 

[Harry22]

World Championships are a corporate event just as much as the world Cup will be.

 

[Xokkeu]

World Championships are a corporate event just as much as the world Cup will be.

A corporate event with proper national teams

 

[xxxx]

It sure is ridiculous... because I didn't compare the all-star game to the World Cup.

YOU compared the World Cup to the Stanley Cup and THAT is just laughable. One is the pinnacle of league hockey, and the other is a joke of international hockey.

So I countered, and said the World Cup was to the Olympics what the all-star game is to the Stanley Cup.

Lol. Ok.

 

[QnebO]

Haha. Here is the thing - it's both having the same level of being meaningless TO YOU, not to him.

But maybe ask Crosby if he wants to win the All-star game or the World Cup. See how ridiculous it sounds?

It would sound ridiculous, but because it has u23 and euro team, it really doesn't as much as you think. Don't pretend like the tournament can International tournament presitge with those teams in.

 

[Harry22]

A corporate event with proper national teams

Proper national teams which do not include the absolute best from each nation.

 

[kabidjan18]

Proper national teams which do not include the absolute best from each nation.

First off, about your comment on corporatism, there is a small difference between a corporate event and a money grab. If I were to sell lemonade by the roadside, and each person came and gave me and dollar and I gave them a glass of lemonade then yes I am absolutely participating in business. A money grab however is different, a money grab is where the party selling the product tries to gather the same or more money for less work than necessary to create the product or a completely fake product. So back to the lemonade stand you pay me a dollar bill I give you a cup of water when the sign says "Lemonade" stand. People aren't complaining that the world cup of hockey is a corporate event, but a money grab, implying that the product is not what it is advertised to be and not worth as much as is being charged.

The WHC does not market itself as a best on best. The World cup of hockey markets itself as an international tournament. So your point about the absolute best, they don't have to have the absolute best, fans know that's not what they're getting and still find it worth it to put in the money.

 

[Jablkon]

It is, and I was there so I can tell you it was great. But I'm talking about passion and effort from players.

You right, it will be definetely higher in those 6 teams. Two remaining teams are questionable. But maybe something like last all-star game happens and they will take it seriously...

 

[Jablkon]

World Championships are a corporate event just as much as the world Cup will be.

??? What a statement. Learn something about it....