Which team has the brighter future? OTT/DET/MTL/BUF
- Thread starter Lazytrout
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bert
Registered User
I think this is a fairly obvious point. Look at your evaluations in this entire thread. You're having a hard time being objective about the players on your favorite teams in comparison to your teams biggest rivals. Players dont peak at 21, especially d men. He was much better at 23 than he was 21 which shows your flawed logic and materially poor evaluation of the player. He has struggled with injuries the last few years he had short periods of play which you saw the player from 21-23 years old but its clear he has battled a wrist injury. He finally had surgery on it, we will see if it gets back to 100 percent. One things for certain guys dont just lose it all together especially at the prime of their career. He is finally going to have a real NHL d coach for the first time in his career and a coaching staff that will play with structure. He has alot to prove with how inconsistent he has been but again I think that has alot more to do with alot of injuries and organizational turmoil that was relying on him too much.
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Xspyrit
DJ Dorion
Your opinion was that Chabot was a #3 D-man, which is ridiculous. I then provided facts, stats, even advanced stats that show that Chabot is quite more than that but you decided to keep that "opinion"... OK
Even if Chabot was not as good as usual the last 2 seasons (bunch of injuries, disorganized teams), he was still Top-30 in PPG among D-men, 7th in EV TOI/GP and excelled in transition as usual. He struggled defensively at times and with injuries, on a team where it has been frequent
But to say that a 27 y/o guy has peaked at 21 y/o is also quite the opinion... He had his best PPG that season but even if it remains his highest, it doesn't mean he will have peaked. If he was a #3 like you say, I doubt he'd be such a fixture on TC, like in 2021-22 (I know, so long ago) where he was TC's captain
Finally, IF I attacked you personally, don't worry you'd know it by now. I am heavily criticizing your opinions though and I totally have the right to do that
MXD
Partying Hard
- Oct 27, 2005
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That's ... probably the reasonable take here. Bigger upside "sum", if that makes any sense, and no actual core player will be on their downside in the medium term (Matheson is arguably core and may hit his downside, but he's not, say, Claude Giroux that can't reasonably be expected to be as effective in 2028).
I’m not saying he lost it all or that he isn’t good. My point is he’s not a #1 D and hasn’t played like one since his 21-22 years old season. Everyone and their mother could make that assessment right now.
Growth is linear. Nagging injuries can alter someone’s career in a very negative way. Maybe he comes back healthy and play well but not many players who battled injuries and slowed down - even at a young age - was able to come back and peak again.
My evaluation of Habs players has nothing to do with other teams as well. I think I have been quite fair with what Montreal has and will have on D in the next 5 years - which was that Montreal probably won’t have that bonafida #1 D but will have enough 2-4 depth to make it work and compete against the best D out there.
1. That’s where he should he slated right now on a decent to great team, yes.
2. Your opinion was that he was still a #1 D and no, you didn’t provide stats, facts or advanced stats to prove it.
3. Being top 30 in PPG and TOI doesn’t mean much. Matheson was top 10 in both categories, does that make him a top 10 D in the league? #1 D? No.
4. He’s been struggling defensively for a while. You seem to want to put the blame on everything but the player itself. Injuries, team, bad coaching, bad teammates. It’s everyone’s fault but his, right?
5. It is quite the opinion but there’s an argument for it, isn’t it? Those two years we are talking about he was very noticeable on the ice. He was breaking up plays, winning puck battles, good stick and positioning and had a very good offensive flair but more importantly, he was flying on the ice.
I don’t see that from him anymore. He’s all over the place, rushing the play/pass more often than not, avoiding puck battles along the boards and not using his stick/body has much as he used to.
Now, that can be a side effect of having to deal with multiple injuries over time (most likely) or simply not wanting to commit as much as he used to when he entered the league but he clearly lost a step. That doesn’t make him a piss poor player but he’s not in the elite category anymore either and certainly not someone I would want as my #1 D.
Anyway, I don’t even know why we’re still arguing about Chabot when even you agreed to my point that he isn’t what he used to be 2-3+ years ago.
norrisnick
The best...
- Apr 14, 2005
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GIN ANTONIC
Registered User
1 hour to Niagara on the Lake. 2 hours to Toronto. Not a bad deal May - November Just go somewhere else Winter and early Spring.
Rorschach
Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
I see Cup contention or no Cup contention. If you win a bunch of games but don’t contend, that’s not good due to the rules of the entry draft.
Just Linda
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- Feb 24, 2018
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Yager and Pickering are decent prospects. I'd put them ahead of Boston, Florida, Tampa, and NYI at the bottom of the league.
I'd say Ottawa isn't too far off Pittsburgh though.
They are good prospects, they are also all Pittsburgh has got.
Pittsburgh has 2 guys worth anything
Just Linda
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That's more than the lightning or islanders got.
Other than Yamemchuk, senators don't have anything in that level either.
SeanAveryTheGreatOne
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Ottawa. I hate them but the answer is Ottawa if Ullmark plays like he can for a few years. Having Pinto for a full season will also be big for them as I think he’s really good. Definitely a 2C.
They’re core is really freaking good, they were just held back by some atrocious goaltending and some absolute nonsense (Noris injuries, stupid Pinto gambling ban, coaching, Dadonov situation, new ownership, etc). I live in Ottawa and trust me, the franchise had a lot drama the last couple of years and I think this year might be a chance at a clean slate for this group.
I think for the next couple of years until their new contracts are up they will surprise.
I think this past draft will be huge for them in the long run. I think their core+Ullmark has a real chance to take off for good this year and this may be the last time for a bit they have a top pick. This pick hitting could be a massive add down the line and I’m really not the biggest fan of them picking Yakemchuk. Should have just traded the pick or even traded back to pick more assets instead of picking him at 7. That being said I am not a scout, what do I know. But yeah, if they hit on him and he becomes that physical top 4 RD with offensive flair and that big shot then they are set.
They have to forfeit one of their next 2 first rounders. Big loss. Either as a trade chip to add to their team or another crack at a youngster that if he hits would be a big add on ELC money when their big names hit their prime years and are making big money.
But even with Yakemchuk not hitting and losing a first rounder, at the end of the day top end talent wins and currently Ottawa has the best top end talent of this group. It’s a lot easier to acquire complimentary pieces than it is to acquire a core of Tkachuk/Stutzle/Batherson/Pinto/Norris/Sanderson/Chabot/Zub/Ullmark.
Prospect pools are just that, prospects pool. Means nothing unless they actually pan out. The jump from Juniors/NCAA/AHL/Europe to the NHL is a monstrous one that very few can overcome. And prospects mean nothing unless they actually get a chance to play so they can develop. Look at Buffalo, all those sick prospects but how many of them can crack their rotation and get actual playing time? They just traded one of their top prospect (Savoie) for a bottom sixer. Will be interesting to see what Buffalo does with those talented kids that won’t get playing time. Would Nick Suzuki have become the player he his today if he wasn’t traded to a team that like Montreal that was starving for Centers and that could give him NHL reps right away? What if he gets buried in the AHL or gets moved to the wings because his new team already has their C rotation figured out.
Speaking of Suzuki, as a biased Hab fan, Suzuki has 23 pts in 32 playoffs games. 7 pts in 10 games his first playoffs taste. In his second playoffs appearance, he had 16 pts in 22 games in a final run at the age of 22. All for a team that probably had the worst offense entering the playoffs that year. We’ll see what the other centers in this discussion who are better than Suzuki will do when (if) they get to the playoffs.
They’re core is really freaking good, they were just held back by some atrocious goaltending and some absolute nonsense (Noris injuries, stupid Pinto gambling ban, coaching, Dadonov situation, new ownership, etc). I live in Ottawa and trust me, the franchise had a lot drama the last couple of years and I think this year might be a chance at a clean slate for this group.
I think for the next couple of years until their new contracts are up they will surprise.
I think this past draft will be huge for them in the long run. I think their core+Ullmark has a real chance to take off for good this year and this may be the last time for a bit they have a top pick. This pick hitting could be a massive add down the line and I’m really not the biggest fan of them picking Yakemchuk. Should have just traded the pick or even traded back to pick more assets instead of picking him at 7. That being said I am not a scout, what do I know. But yeah, if they hit on him and he becomes that physical top 4 RD with offensive flair and that big shot then they are set.
They have to forfeit one of their next 2 first rounders. Big loss. Either as a trade chip to add to their team or another crack at a youngster that if he hits would be a big add on ELC money when their big names hit their prime years and are making big money.
But even with Yakemchuk not hitting and losing a first rounder, at the end of the day top end talent wins and currently Ottawa has the best top end talent of this group. It’s a lot easier to acquire complimentary pieces than it is to acquire a core of Tkachuk/Stutzle/Batherson/Pinto/Norris/Sanderson/Chabot/Zub/Ullmark.
Prospect pools are just that, prospects pool. Means nothing unless they actually pan out. The jump from Juniors/NCAA/AHL/Europe to the NHL is a monstrous one that very few can overcome. And prospects mean nothing unless they actually get a chance to play so they can develop. Look at Buffalo, all those sick prospects but how many of them can crack their rotation and get actual playing time? They just traded one of their top prospect (Savoie) for a bottom sixer. Will be interesting to see what Buffalo does with those talented kids that won’t get playing time. Would Nick Suzuki have become the player he his today if he wasn’t traded to a team that like Montreal that was starving for Centers and that could give him NHL reps right away? What if he gets buried in the AHL or gets moved to the wings because his new team already has their C rotation figured out.
Speaking of Suzuki, as a biased Hab fan, Suzuki has 23 pts in 32 playoffs games. 7 pts in 10 games his first playoffs taste. In his second playoffs appearance, he had 16 pts in 22 games in a final run at the age of 22. All for a team that probably had the worst offense entering the playoffs that year. We’ll see what the other centers in this discussion who are better than Suzuki will do when (if) they get to the playoffs.
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Canadiens Ghost
Mr. Objectivity
Sam de Mtl
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- Oct 11, 2021
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I like your explanation for why Ottawa could have success this year. I have a hard time picking them because I got burned too many times, thinking they would finally be good, but it remains true that they have too many good parts to keep being bad. Unlikely you, I am not too certain Ullmark will be that good. Ullmark never was seen as a high end #1 goaltending before playing in Boston. Did he improve over his time there or was the system a good fit for him/the system makes goaltenders look good? Truth is probably somewhere in the middle, but I have a really hard time knowing which extremity it will fall closer to.Ottawa. I hate them but the answer is Ottawa if Ullmark plays like he can for a few years. Having Pinto for a full season will also be big for them as I think he’s really good. Definitely a 2C.
They’re core is really freaking good, they were just held back by some atrocious goaltending and some absolute nonsense (Noris injuries, stupid Pinto gambling ban, coaching, Dadonov situation, new ownership, etc). I live in Ottawa and trust me, the franchise had a lot drama the last couple of years and I think this year might be a chance at a clean slate for this group.
I think for the next couple of years until their new contracts are up they will surprise.
I think this past draft will be huge for them in the long run. I think their core+Ullmark has a real chance to take off for good this year and this may be the last time for a bit they have a top pick. This pick hitting could be a massive add down the line and I’m really not the biggest fan of them picking Yakemchuk. Should have just traded the pick or even traded back to pick more assets instead of picking him at 7. That being said I am not a scout, what do I know. But yeah, if they hit on him and he becomes that physical top 4 RD with offensive flair and that big shot then they are set.
They have to forfeit one of their next 2 first rounders. Big loss. Either as a trade chip to add to their team or another crack at a youngster that if he hits would be a big add on ELC money when their big names hit their prime years and are making big money.
But even with Yakemchuk not hitting and losing a first rounder, at the end of the day top end talent wins and currently Ottawa has the best top end talent of this group. It’s a lot easier to acquire complimentary pieces than it is to acquire a core of Tkachuk/Stutzle/Batherson/Pinto/Norris/Sanderson/Chabot/Zub/Ullmark.
Prospect pools are just that, prospects pool. Means nothing unless they actually pan out. The jump from Juniors/NCAA/AHL/Europe to the NHL is a monstrous one that very few can overcome. And prospects mean nothing unless they actually get a chance to play so they can develop. Look at Buffalo, all those sick prospects but how many of them can crack their rotation and get actual playing time? They just traded one of their top prospect (Savoie) for a bottom sixer. Will be interesting to see what Buffalo does with those talented kids that won’t get playing time. Would Nick Suzuki have become the player he his today if he wasn’t traded to a team that like Montreal that was starving for Centers and that could give him NHL reps right away? What if he gets buried in the AHL or gets moved to the wings because his new team already has their C rotation figured out.
Speaking of Suzuki, as a biased Hab fan, Suzuki has 23 pts in 32 playoffs games. 7 pts in 10 games his first playoffs taste. In his second playoffs appearance, he had 16 pts in 22 games in a final run at the age of 22. All for a team that probably had the worst offense entering the playoffs that year. We’ll see what the other centers in this discussion who are better than Suzuki will do when (if) they get to the playoffs.
I wouldn't be surprised if Korpisalo salvaged his name in the coming years and Ullmark lost some of his shine.
That being said, even though I am not an Ottawa fan, I would be happy for them if they made the playoffs. I don't really want them to be a joke throughout the league. I don't think this helps anyone.
Me too, but because I live in Ottawa. The City is pretty divided in terms of fans (Sens, Habs, Leafs). And when two of those teams are good at the same time it’s real fun. I still remember the playoffs series we lost to them. Habs and Sens jerseys everywhere in the city, all the Habs/Sens flags on the cars and just the overall vibe of the city during that time. My best friends and coworker are fairly 50/50 divided so every day there was some friendly trash talk the day after the game. And watching the playoffs games themselves with a split group of friends were such good times. Subban vs Karlsson was a daily debate. Price shit the bed a few times during that series, let in a couple of softies.
I hope if we become a playoffs team in the next couple of years the Sens have it figured out as well. A (couple) playoff series in a couple years between Suzuki/Caufield/Slafkovsky/Demidov/Dach/Guhle/Hutson/Reinbacher/Mailloux vs Tkachuk/Stutzle/Batherson/Pinto/Norris/Sanderson/Chabot/Zub/Yakemchuk/Ullmark would be epic to live in Ottawa. Especially if a bunch of those players are in their prime years by then and live up to their potential.
Ottawa as a city has also grown quite a bit since then (and still is). The Lansdowne complex feels like the new downtown, the O-train, all the high rises that feel like they just popped out of nowhere. I moved here 14 years ago and it’s starting to feel less like a bunch of suburbs randomly put together and more and more like a real city. And with that comes big city pros and cons.
But I disgress, back on the subject. Still think they have the brightest future at least for the next couple of years from the 4 teams in this poll.
Like you said, they have too many good parts to keep being bad.
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HisIceness
This is Hurricanes Hockey
Voted Buffalo. Time will tell but it looks to me that the plan isn't to just end the playoff drought (although that is a goal), it's to keep going back to the playoffs again and again. I'm a fan of their young players and prospect pool. And honestly it just seems like destiny that Ruff would return as coach and be the man to end the drought. We'll see, but he's back.
Montreal has great potential but appears to be a few years away. I still don't get why they passed on Michkov but that's a topic for another day.
Detroit, I'm not really sure to be honest. Could go in any direction really. I thought Zadina would be a terrific player for them and the guy they'd build around, didn't happen.
I'll cut Ottawa some slack since the ownership is new and the previous regime did them no favors. At the same time, Travis Green as HC? Also, just in general the prospect pool for a team that's missed the playoffs for 7 years isn't very good. Lot of work cut out here.
Montreal has great potential but appears to be a few years away. I still don't get why they passed on Michkov but that's a topic for another day.
Detroit, I'm not really sure to be honest. Could go in any direction really. I thought Zadina would be a terrific player for them and the guy they'd build around, didn't happen.
I'll cut Ottawa some slack since the ownership is new and the previous regime did them no favors. At the same time, Travis Green as HC? Also, just in general the prospect pool for a team that's missed the playoffs for 7 years isn't very good. Lot of work cut out here.
If Ottawa can get Ullmark signed it's them, because that's what Ottawa needs, a stud goaltender, and Ullmark has proven he can do that with his 2023 Vezina.
If they can't get him signed it becomes a toss up.
If they can't get him signed it becomes a toss up.
Weird take about players wanting to come to Detroit. First of all money talks, second Detroit wouldn't win out over AT LEAST 20 teams in desirability for climate, tax situation and competitiveness. Thinking this is a bankable virtue is a stretch. It is home for some but otherwise not much to like.
