Which of the following scenarios would’ve been the best for Mario Lemieux’s legacy?

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Which of the following scenarios would’ve been the best for Lemieux’s legacy?

  • Option 1

    Votes: 5 17.2%
  • Option 2

    Votes: 2 6.9%
  • Option 3

    Votes: 22 75.9%

  • Total voters
    29

JackSlater

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Apr 27, 2010
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The third I guess but that's because the 2000 season goes above and beyond in terms of fantasy. In terms of realistic things the 1993 Stanley Cup in dominant fashion would do the most of him since so much of Lemieux's career was viewed in comparison with Gretzky's.
 

Staniowski

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Jan 13, 2018
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Years side by side:

Gretzky: 137
Lemieux: 100

Gretzky: 164
Lemieux: 141

Gretzky: 212
Lemieux: 107

Gretzky: 196
Lemieux: 168

Gretzky: 205
Lemieux: 199

Gretzky: 208
Lemieux: 123

Gretzky: 215
Lemieux: 45

Gretzky: 183
Lemieux: 131

Gretzky: 149
Lemieux: 160

Gretzky: 168
Lemieux: 37

Gretzky: 142
Lemieux: 161

Gretzky: 163
Lemieux: 122

If you match up their first 12 seasons (Lemieux played 12 at his initial 1997 retirement) Lemieux is outscored 10/12 times and most by earth shattering margins. If they start in 1980 theoretically Lemieux likely never wins a Ross. If you bring Gretzky in at the 6th year of Lemieux’s career (what happened in real life to Gretzky with Lemieux’s debut) Mario never wins a scoring title from that point onward.
This - obviously - is not a valid comparison; it's silly.

You're comparing a healthy Gretzky in a weaker, easier-to-score-in league to a largely unhealthy Lemieux in a better, more difficult-to-score-in league.

If you were actually to line them up in the same seasons (and same ages), it's likely that Lemieux would outscore Gretzky most of the time. All things considered, Lemieux was a better scorer than Gretzky, if we remove the health factor.

Gretzky would have the early advantage due to his more natural game; it took Lemieux a while to get going (as it did in the Q also). But Lemieux had better staying power, and he scored better than Gretzky in a tougher league. So Lemieux would be a better scorer over the long haul.

Once Lemieux reached close to his best (after age 21), he was always as good or better scorer than Gretzky, as long as his health was pretty good.
 

Video Nasty

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Mar 12, 2017
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Once Lemieux reached close to his best (after age 21), he was always as good or better scorer than Gretzky, as long as his health was pretty good.

You don’t think it’s dishonest to not acknowledge that Gretzky was older, had way more mileage on his body, and also his own injuries that might have contributed something to this?

Same seasons, same ages, most of the time in Lemieux’s favor? Gretzky shredded Lemieux at each stage of their 19, 20, 21, and 22 seasons. He has the better age 23, 24, 25, and 26 seasons as well. That’s already eight seasons where Gretzky beats him during their age respective seasons. Lemieux is lucky he didn’t come in at age 19 with Gretzky, because he’d have half the hardware he does otherwise.
 
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Staniowski

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You don’t think it’s dishonest to not acknowledge that Gretzky was older, had way more mileage on his body, and also his own injuries that might have contributed something to this?
I said in the previous paragraphs that Lemieux would outscore Gretzky most of the time even if they started their careers at the same time.

Nevertheless, there's only four years between them, and once Lemieux got going, he was a better scorer (when healthy) for the rest of their careers.
 

Michael Farkas

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Lemieux is at some disadvantage in terms of not starting at the same time as Gretzky. Those lean years for the NHL in the early 80's had more or less repaired themselves by the time Lemieux was out of his junior-age seasons...

If freakin' Dennis Maruk is dropping 60/140 seasons in there...I can't imagine what 21 or 22 year old Lemieux would have been able to do...
 

Video Nasty

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Mar 12, 2017
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Lemieux is at some disadvantage in terms of not starting at the same time as Gretzky. Those lean years for the NHL in the early 80's had more or less repaired themselves by the time Lemieux was out of his junior-age seasons...

If freakin' Dennis Maruk is dropping 60/140 seasons in there...I can't imagine what 21 or 22 year old Lemieux would have been able to do...

Average GPG was 3.93 in Lemieux's first two seasons versus 3.68 during Gretzky’s first two. Both seasons taken individually were higher in Lemieux’s favor (3.89 vs 3.51 and 3.97 vs 3.84).

Gretzky scored 301 points in 159 games (1.893 PPG) and set the new high water mark for points during that second year.

Lemieux scored 241 points in 152 games (1.586 PPG) and finished 74 points behind Gretzky during his own second year.

I’m going to take a stab at it and guess that Lemieux also scores fewer than the 212 Gretzky did if they were both 21 in 1981-1982.
 
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MadLuke

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Average GPG was 3.93 in Lemieux's first two seasons versus 3.68 during Gretzky’s first two.
Bar to reach the top 10 / non Gretzky-Lemieux top scorer

80: 94 / 137
81: 103 / 135


85: 102 / 135
86: 105 / 138

And if we look at player like Savard, Hawerchuck, Stastny, Bossy, Gretzky or Federko, I am not sure about 80&81 being significantly easier to score than 85 and 86. So i am not sure if we can say that they were much better but facing much better defense.
 

Video Nasty

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Bar to reach the top 10 / non Gretzky-Lemieux top scorer

80: 94 / 137
81: 103 / 135


85: 102 / 135
86: 105 / 138

And if we look at player like Savard, Hawerchuck, Stastny, Bossy, Gretzky or Federko, I am not sure about 80&81 being significantly easier to score than 85 and 86. So i am not sure if we can say that they were much better but facing much better defense.

Treat them the exact same then. Gretzky would have dummied Lemieux 137-100 and 164-141.
 
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WalterLundy

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This - obviously - is not a valid comparison; it's silly.

You're comparing a healthy Gretzky in a weaker, easier-to-score-in league to a largely unhealthy Lemieux in a better, more difficult-to-score-in league.

If you were actually to line them up in the same seasons (and same ages), it's likely that Lemieux would outscore Gretzky most of the time. All things considered, Lemieux was a better scorer than Gretzky, if we remove the health factor.

Gretzky would have the early advantage due to his more natural game; it took Lemieux a while to get going (as it did in the Q also). But Lemieux had better staying power, and he scored better than Gretzky in a tougher league. So Lemieux would be a better scorer over the long haul.

Once Lemieux reached close to his best (after age 21), he was always as good or better scorer than Gretzky, as long as his health was pretty good.
It’s 100% valid you just don’t like it. There is zero evidence whatsoever to support your position. You talk about the health factor hurting Lemieux’s numbers and then about the league magically getting harder to score in when Lemieux entered to diminish what Gretzky did. Lemieux had his two best seasons in the two highest scoring years ever when you look at the number 2-10 in points per game averaged out to 82 games (1989 and 1993 had averages of 132 per 82 and 134 per 82 for the 2-10 average respectively). Not going to dwell on that absurd notion too much longer but if you really wanted to look at adjustments into a neutral environment we can certainly do that.

Lemieux’s two best seasons before injuries started in 89-90 also happen to be his best for total points in a season as well. 87-88 and 88-89 at age 22 and 23. Gretzky at the same age happened in the 82-83 and 83-84 seasons. If we adjust that into the average league environment of 2.24 ESG, 0.72 PPG, 0.10 SHG (3.06 total GPG) we get these results as we also eliminate that garbage league that Gretzky apparently dominated.

Lemieux:
87-88: 77 GP: 55 G, 74 A, 129 P (1.68)
88-89: 76 GP: 66 G, 90 A, 156 P (2.05)
153 GP: 121 G, 164 A, 285 P (1.86)

Gretzky:
82-83: 80 GP: 58 G, 100 A, 158 P (1.98)
83-84: 74 GP: 68 G, 91 A, 159 P (2.15)
154 GP: 126 G, 191 A, 317 P (2.06)

Wayne Gretzky and Lemieux year by year era adjusted by the same method:

Year 1:
WG 79-80: 79 GP: 44 G, 76 A, 120 P (1.52)
ML 84-85: 73 GP: 34 G, 45 A, 79 P (1.08)

Year 2:
WG 80-81: 80 GP: 43 G, 86 A, 129 P (1.61)
ML 85-86: 79 GP: 37 G, 70 A, 107 P (1.35)

Year 3:
WG 81-82: 80 GP: 70 G, 92 A, 162 P (2.03)
*66 GP: 63 G, 76 A, 139 P (2.11)
ML 86-87: 63 GP: 45 G, 44 A, 89 P (1.41)

Year 4:
WG 82-83: 80 GP: 58 G, 100 A, 158 P (1.98)
ML 87-88: 77 GP: 55 G, 74 A, 129 P (1.68)

Year 5:
WG 83-84: 74 GP: 68 G, 91 A, 159 P (2.15)
*57 GP: 56 G, 76 A, 132 P (2.32)
*60 GP: 59 G, 77 A, 136 P (2.27)
ML 88-89: 76 GP: 66 G, 90 A, 156 P (2.05)

Year 6:
WG 84-85: 80 GP: 57 G, 106 A, 163 P (2.04)
*60 GP: 47 G, 84 A, 131 P (2.18)
ML 89-90: 59 GP: 37 G, 64 A, 101 P (1.71)

Year 7:
WG 85-86: 80 GP: 40 G, 125 A, 165 P (2.06)
*68 GP: 37 G, 106 A, 143 P (2.10)
ML 90-91: 26 GP: 16 G, 24 A, 40 P (1.54)

Year 8:
WG 86-87: 79 GP: 51 G, 101 A, 152 P (1.92)
*59 GP: 45 G, 79 A, 124 P (2.10)
ML: 91-92: 64 GP: 38 G, 73 A, 111 P (1.73)

Year 9:
WG 87-88: 64 GP: 33 G, 87 A, 120 P (1.88)
ML 92-93: 60 GP: 58 G, 74 A, 132 P (2.20)

Year 10:
WG 88-89: 78 GP: 45 G, 91 A, 136 P (1.74)
ML 93-94: 22 GP: 16 G, 18 A, 34 P (1.55)

Year 11:
WG 89-90: 73 GP: 33 G, 85 A, 118 P (1.62)
ML 95-96: 70 GP: 63 G, 84 A, 147 P (2.10)

Year 12:
WG 90-91: 78 GP: 37 G, 107 A, 144 P (1.85)
ML 96-97: 76 GP: 52 G, 76 A, 128 P (1.68)

Gretzky still wins 10/12 times when adjusted and lined up as of when Lemieux retired in 1997 where any meaningful years ended for either here. This accounts for the scoring environment of the league. If you want to speculate as to what Lemieux would have done in the years he was playing hurt that’s fine but that’s also not real. Also highly unlikely he beats Gretzky in any more years in this line up scenario even if healthy in those years. It would never be more than 3/12 wins for Lemieux here. This proves your statement of Lemieux outscoring Gretzky in this scenario more often than not as demonstrably false.

85-97 ML: 1253 in 745 (1.68)
80-91 WG: 1726 in 925 (1.87)

473 adjusted points between them in 180 games. It would take Lemieux becoming 20% better than he ever was for a 60 game stretch and maintaining that for triple the length in all of his missed injured games to match Gretzky. Fantasy is futile.
 
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SEALBound

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I voted for #1. The showdown between Pit and LA—Mario vs. Wayne—would have been an epic, all-time series not just for those two but for the league and all hockey fans. I think the only thing that could compared to that series is if somehow Sid and Ovie met in the SCF.

Mario's production was absolutely undeniable. He had so many great moments that I'm not sure adding to the point total adds THAT much more unless we are talking about him maintaining the 1.8 PPG through the similar length of time that Wayne did. A 20yr career at 1.8 PPG puts him at 2952pts. But I mean, if you're putting him at 2,500 or so I guess that would be favorable. It would certainly make it 1. Wayne 2. Mario. 3 Orr/Howe. I think the general Mt Rushmore is Wayne is #1 with discussions of Mario, Orr, and Howe as 2-4. 2k+ pts put him FIRMLY in #2 but I'm already of the opinion that he is #2 and I don't see many good arguments to the contrary.

One thing that the healthy career may have solidified is his place in the "best goal scorer of all time" lists. I think quite often he's shorted on that front. Not many guys go GPG in a playoff run. He did. Maybe another 600-700 games would have vaulted him over Wayne and put him over 1k goals. Who knows? Production is always unpredictable so I take the big time, center stage moment of the third cup.
 
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The Panther

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Good Lord, man. You've posted some humdingers on this topic before, but this might take the cake...!
You're comparing a healthy Gretzky in a weaker, easier-to-score-in league to a largely unhealthy Lemieux in a better, more difficult-to-score-in league.
No. He's comparing each player's respective seasons (year by year). Both Gretzky and Lemieux were perfectly healthy (in hockey terms) during their first six seasons (during which Gretzky destroyed Lemieux). The NHL Lemieux entered in in 1984 was easier to score in that the NHL Gretzky entered in in 1979.
If you were actually to line them up in the same seasons (and same ages), it's likely that Lemieux would outscore Gretzky most of the time. All things considered, Lemieux was a better scorer than Gretzky, if we remove the health factor.
That's like saying, "Howie Morenz was better at age 35 than age 25, if we remove the death factor". Speculative nonsense.

Also, what are you talking about that Lemieux would outscore Gretzky at the same ages? That's not correct. If you were to compare the two players' more-or-less full seasons (not 40-game seaons), we'd see Lemieux's 1996-97 (aged 31) clearly besting Gretzky's (post-prime) 1991-92, also aged 31 (albeit the point totals are close). But prior to that...?
But Lemieux had better staying power,
Well, that's laughable. Lemieux quite pro-hockey at age 31-32 because it was too hard but he had "better staying power"...?
and he scored better than Gretzky in a tougher league.
If you're referring to 1996-97, yes.
Once Lemieux reached close to his best (after age 21), he was always as good or better scorer than Gretzky, as long as his health was pretty good.
That's utterly ridiculous, as I've demonstrated on these threads countless times.
 
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Video Nasty

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Gretzky was also on a way better team than Lemieux for his first 6 years.

Wouldn’t Gretzky routinely out scoring his way better teammates by 70-100+ points actually be more impressive?

Lemieux beat Dan Quinn by 89 points, Rob Brown by 84, and Mike Bullard by 58 during his first 6 seasons. Those are his big victories.

Meanwhile, Gretzky finished 89, 101, and 132 clear of Kurri, Messier, and Coffey in his second season.

He beat Glenn Anderson by 107 and beat Coffey, Messier, and Kurri by 123, 124, and 126 respectively in his third season.

He cleared his big three by 90-100 the following season. By 79-104 in season four.

Beat Kurri and Coffey by 73 and 87 in season five (Messier finished 154 back while missing 25 games).

Coffey and Kurri behind by 77 and 84 (Messier finished 131 back while missing 17 games).

Oh right, you just know the names and didn’t realize Gretzky was always leagues beyond them and helped mold them into the kind of hockey players they became, because they certainly weren’t who you think they were in the first few years.

Pick your poison. Was he only a beneficiary of being on a stacked, way better team and that’s the reason why Lemieux couldn’t blah blah blah? Or is it actually more impressive that Gretzky was beating his own more talented teammates by wider margins and that’s why Lemieux whatever?

As usual, Gretzky did it all first, better, quicker, and in more dominant fashion.
 
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The Panther

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Gretzky was also on a way better team than Lemieux for his first 6 years.
Not in his first two years -- the Oilers in 1979-80 and 1980-81 were a bit worse than the Penguins. Here's how the two players fared:

Gretzky
301 PTS [204 ES] (+55)
Lemieux
241 PTS [142 ES] (-41)

As the post above notes, being on a way better team makes Gretzky's scoring dominance of teammates much the more impressive:

Oilers 1981-82 to 1986-87
Gretzky 1219 PTS (+459) | 2.58 PPG (206 PTS / season)
Kurri 677 PTS (+284) | 1.52 PPG (122 PTS / season)
Coffey 637 PTS (+270) | 1.39 PPG (111 PTS / season)
Anderson 564 PTS (+217) | 1.22 PPG (98 PTS / season)
Messier 540 PTS (+145) | 1.28 PPG (102 PTS / season)
Penguins 1987-88 to 1992-93
Lemieux 826 PTS (+136) | 2.28 PPG (182 PTS / season)
Coffey 440 PTS (-50) | 1.33 PPG (106 PTS / season)
Stevens 412 PTS (-4) | 1.18 PPG (94 PTS / season)
Brown 255 PTS (+25) | 1.14 PPG (91 PTS / season)
Recchi 252 PTS (-12) | 1.12 PPG (90 PTS / season)
[Rick Tocchet was at 1.40 PPG and thus 112 PTS / season, but pretty small sample size.]

Gretzky was doubling Coffey, Messier, and Anderson in scoring (Kurri a bit less so, but Kurri shared 80% of his points with Gretzky).

Lemieux was doubling Stevens, Brown, and Recchi.
 
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Gorskyontario

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Not in his first two years -- the Oilers in 1979-80 and 1980-81 were a bit worse than the Penguins. Here's how the two players fared:

Gretzky
301 PTS [204 ES] (+55)
Lemieux
241 PTS [142 ES] (-41)

As the post above notes, being on a way better team makes Gretzky's scoring dominance of teammates much the more impressive:

Oilers 1981-82 to 1986-87
Gretzky 1219 PTS (+459) | 2.58 PPG (206 PTS / season)
Kurri 677 PTS (+284) | 1.52 PPG (122 PTS / season)
Coffey 637 PTS (+270) | 1.39 PPG (111 PTS / season)
Anderson 564 PTS (+217) | 1.22 PPG (98 PTS / season)
Messier 540 PTS (+145) | 1.28 PPG (102 PTS / season)
Penguins 1987-88 to 1992-93
Lemieux 826 PTS (+136) | 2.28 PPG (182 PTS / season)
Coffey 440 PTS (-50) | 1.33 PPG (106 PTS / season)
Stevens 412 PTS (-4) | 1.18 PPG (94 PTS / season)
Brown 255 PTS (+25) | 1.14 PPG (91 PTS / season)
Recchi 252 PTS (-12) | 1.12 PPG (90 PTS / season)
[Rick Tocchet was at 1.40 PPG and thus 112 PTS / season, but pretty small sample size.]

Gretzky was doubling Coffey, Messier, and Anderson in scoring (Kurri a bit less so, but Kurri shared 80% of his points with Gretzky).

Lemieux was doubling Stevens, Brown, and Recchi.
Mario Lemieux had Wayne Babych with 1 arm as his linemate his rookie year lol.




You know these are just the types of things we can look up. The penguins were the 2nd worst team in the league, the oilers were a playoff team.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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Is the playoff loss in 1993 considered detrimental to Lemieux’s legacy? I’ve never considered that before.

Winning a 3rd cup in 93 certainly adds to the legacy, but losing that cup hasn't done much to take away from his legacy either.... if that makes sense.

What I mean is that you generally don't hear people blaming Mario for that upset defeat.

Yes, would be how I see it, big opportunity cost, but neutral, he get a pass having just won 2 and returning from the cancer thing. While obviously, would he have scored again 35+ points, 3 smythe in a row and won the cup, the 93 teams legacy and talk about the best ever and the season rank among the best ever would be worth a lot.

No, you don't. I've always blamed David Volek and Ray Ferraro.

i think ppl usually blame rich pilon for breaking k stevens’ face but i blame kasparaitis and tom fitzgerald, with maybe an extra round of applause to glenn healy for stealing a couple games.

in my recollection two moments were critical to the series.

#1 is in the game four. penguins up 2-1 in the series, tied 1-1 late in the second. claude loiselle takes a high sticking penalty with a minute and a half left in the period, although the replay shows that it was actually tom fitzgerald who sticked mike ramsey.



if you watch the video from the timestamp (1:25:00), you’ll see that fitzgerald goes on to score with seconds left in the period, picking off an attempted joe mullen clear and putting it behind barrasso — looked like the puck was deflected by larry murphy on the way to the net. (bonus pts to mullen’s younger brother brian, who began that PK with some nice clears before his brother was the goat.)

but then at the beginning of the third, still killing same claude loiselle penalty, kaspar makes a diving play to spring fitzgerald on a two-on-one with hogue, murphy being the guy back. fitzgerald scores a second shorthanded goal to put the isles up 3-1 in the game. what ensued was a wild third period, with pittsburgh scoring two quick ones to tie the game, then trading goals the rest of the way, with derek king getting his first two goals of the playoffs, including the go-ahead to put them up 6-5, which was game. but the big point here is pittsburgh blew a chance to go up 3-1 in the series and it was a sloppy PP that gave the islanders life.

the second turning point was game six. you’ve all seen this clip before.



(timestamped to 1:19:19) islanders up 4-3 midway through the second, mario takes out his frustration on kaspar, who decks him, then later in the same shift heading into the corner with mario decks him again and stands over him like he’s muhammad ali. pittsburgh scored on the ensuing PP but ended up losing the game 7-5. that was an elimination game for the islanders, but they won it, and then another one. i think watching the best player in the world, who’s 6’4, 220, get dummied like that by a teenage 5’10 rookie with his forehead all stitched up, with tocchet on the ice no less, had to be demoralizing.

that series was huge to me as a kid. it was my first glimpse that a superteam could lose and it was beautiful. the 58 goal, 132 pt franchise player out for effectively the entire series, al arbour over his former coach scotty bowman, ray ferraro (who set up both volek goals beautifully) prevailing over his former captain ronnie francis, tom fitzgerald just an absolute beauty (and the islanders scoring 4 SH goals to the greatest PP in the world’s mere 5), brian mullen over joey, and of course kaspar vs mario.
 

The Pale King

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Is it possible that if the 96 Penguins get by the Panthers in the ECF in a convincing fashion, say a sweep, that the Dead Puck era is perhaps not averted but not as fully leaned into? Let's assume the Avalanche take care of the Penguins in 6 games, but the games have more of a high-tempo feel to them ala the 94 Finals...

I know teams were already drafting the guys that would be DPE posterchildren, but maybe there's less of a copy-cat factor if Florida doesn't waterski their way to the SCF. That's almost certainly putting too much emphasis on one series but maybe in that scenario a less-frustrated Mario doesn't hang up the skates after the next season?
 

Michael Farkas

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Is it possible that if the 96 Penguins get by the Panthers in the ECF in a convincing fashion, say a sweep, that the Dead Puck era is perhaps not averted but not as fully leaned into? Let's assume the Avalanche take care of the Penguins in 6 games, but the games have more of a high-tempo feel to them ala the 94 Finals...

I know teams were already drafting the guys that would be DPE posterchildren, but maybe there's less of a copy-cat factor if Florida doesn't waterski their way to the SCF. That's almost certainly putting too much emphasis on one series but maybe in that scenario a less-frustrated Mario doesn't hang up the skates after the next season?
I've kicked this idea around in my head as well. It's possible that it shrunk the length of time of how heavy-handed the DPE was. Then again, there's a lot of factors at play...it wasn't just NJ and Florida doing it, the concept had been around for decades.

Lindros still goes to the Final in 1997, so the over-drafting of 6'5" forwards that can't think and 6'5" defensemen that can't skate would likely continue...

This type of thing could be a book all by itself haha
 

The Panther

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You know these are just the types of things we can look up. The penguins were the 2nd worst team in the league, the oilers were a playoff team.
In the Oilers' first two seasons and in Lemieux's first two seasons, the Oilers were 15th overall and the Penguins were 17th overall. The best single season out of those four was the Pens' 1985-86.

The Oilers made the playoffs because the top 16 teams in the League made it in. In Lemieux's first two years, it was the division format. Had the same playoff system been in place in 1985-86 as in 1979-1981, the Pens would have made the playoffs with room to spare in 1985-86.

(If Lemieux wanted to make the playoffs, he should have gone +55 like Gretzky, instead of -41.)
 

Gorskyontario

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The best single season out of those four was the Pens' 1985-86.


Ok and the single worst team is the Penguins in 84-85.

He wasn't good enough to be an NHL regular...


He was good enough to score 94 points in 80 games, then 43 points in 50 games before he got traded. He also played 6 years in the WHA before that. Maybe he had injuries or something. How many top 10 finishes do you have in the NHL? I'm going to take a wild guess and say it's less than Blair Macdonald.
 

Michael Farkas

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Jesus... :laugh: that's the bar for discussion? I need to have had an 11th place finish in the NHL or whatever in order to talk about.........Blair MacDonald?

He was an average-sized worker bee that wasn't particularly fast. The player that inspired Glen Sather's remark that "a fire hydrant could score 40 goals playing with Gretzky". Once he was ported into the National League from a glorified minor league, he was quickly dismissed. Instead of making up the injury scenario - as he continued to play in the minors and Europe - it's probably better to just acknowledge that he was a product of Gretzky and playing in a watered down league.
 

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