Which of the following scenarios in 2024-25 would be best for McDavid's legacy?
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dr robbie
Let's Go Pens!
That's kind of my thoughts as well. The thread is about which scenario is the best for McD's legacy. Right now, his legacy is that he is the best hockey player to never win a Cup. I would say being one game away from the Cup last year and winning the Smythe has only furthered this legacy. That's literally what he will be known for if he doesn't win one. We already know he has the offensive skill. To change his legacy, he needs to win the Cup - period, whether that's fair or not to him.
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
People definitely care. He's close to a Top 100 player all-time despite lackluster playoff results.
As a Leafs fan, I'd definitely like to see more from him in the playoffs.
Obviously playoff results matter, but for a player of McDavid's stature, there's nothing special about winning a Stanley Cup as the third most important contributor or sitting out the majority of the playoffs and getting your name on the Cup. A 169 point season is a far greater accomplishment.
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Video Nasty
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Who are some of you kidding?
He could go out and drop 164 points (2.00 PPG), win a fourth Hart, fifth Lindsay, and sixth Art Ross, win the Cup, and collect his second Conn Smythe, and some will still say: “Yeah, but can he do it again? It’s a fluke unless he does it again.”
Never have I’ve seen a hockey player need to do more to be considered greater than others who have done far less.
He could go out and drop 164 points (2.00 PPG), win a fourth Hart, fifth Lindsay, and sixth Art Ross, win the Cup, and collect his second Conn Smythe, and some will still say: “Yeah, but can he do it again? It’s a fluke unless he does it again.”
Never have I’ve seen a hockey player need to do more to be considered greater than others who have done far less.
Conspiracy Theorist
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Out of these options, I picked option 6. This years playoffs in general is a good example that points don't tell the whole story.
Golden_Jet
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The average fans are out of touch jobbers! Their opinions mean nothing! Ask your average hockey fan in Florida or California about Bobby Orr or Phil Esposito and they'll have no idea who you're talking about. The stat watchers on the other hand are much more knowledgeable when it comes to hockey and it's vast history!
Yeah, try telling that to daver and wetcoast!
PainForShane
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What a strange take. Winning a Stanley Cup absolutely is special. This is not a controversial opinion and is also borne out by the responses in this poll and practically every player interview ever.
Do you think Auston Matthews would've traded 20 of those regular season goals for a chance for the Leafs to play in the SCF? Of course he would, and I'm sure the entire Leafs fandom would've as well.
Also speaking of contributions, despite winning the Conn Smythe I'd argue Ovechkin won the cup as probably the 2nd or 3rd most important contributor that year (Kuznetsov, Holtby). The only thing people care about is that he finally got through Pittsburgh and won, while scoring a few clutch goals along the way. Who cares if he ended up with an impressive but not dominant 27 points in 24 games (I had to look that up just now, that's how memorable the overall statline was).
***
Anyway imo McDavid has nothing more to prove in the regular season or in regards to his overall offensive talent -- I think he would also agree that scoring 169 points would be impressive but not nearly as impressive as a parade.
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
Do you think Ovechkin played at a higher level in 2009 or 2018? Obviously 2009.
He had a very good playoff run in 2018 and had a good team around him as well. He didn't win that year because he played his best hockey. He won because he played well and so did others around him. The Cup is a team award. As a hockey fan, you want to see your team win. McDavid would have won the Cup this year if Draisaitl had played better than he did. He probably will win the Cup if Draisaitl outplays him in the future - why should players be judged based on what their teammates do?
Golden_Jet
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Ahh just like Crosby in 16/17,
2nd or 3rd behind Kessel and Malkin
Ahh just like Crosby in 16/17,
same point stats. difference being OV had almost double the goals.
15 vs 8.
DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
PainForShane
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I'm talking about legacy (ie the topic of this thread).
Ovi's cup win, combined with all the goals he scored and multiple Hart wins, means Ovi's legacy is secure. If Ovi only scored 36 goals in 2009 instead of 56 goals (everything else the same), he probably wins one fewer Hart over the course of his career, boo hoo. Looking back, his legacy would still essentially be exactly the same.
If the Caps don't win the cup at all, Ovi's legacy is much more uncertain, and he goes down as one of the best (if not the best) player to have never won the cup. His entire legacy is different without that cup win. Maybe he even pulls a Ray Bourque and gets traded to Colorado wouldn't that have been something.
***
You're making a weird argument man. Winning games is clearly important and is winning championships is a vital part of a career resume. If McDavid never wins a cup, he'd likely become the best player to have never won a cup. That's what his legacy would be, it's not a legacy that anybody would want to have.
It'd be far better for his legacy if he were to win a cup with an Edmonton team that's actually pretty good (compared to the effect of putting up another dominant regular season). No brainer in my opinion (as well as ~75% of the people who voted in this poll).
Aashir Mallik
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Option 6 is realistic if you change two things
- Matthews winning both the Hart and Lindsay, he MIGHT take one if he has 115-125 points but not taking both with a 30 point gap. Not to mention there is Mackinnon and kucherov and panarin and others to compete with too.
- Mcdavid isn’t having 21 in 24 in the playoffs, maybe 31 in 24.
Still I picked this because it seems much more realistic than either him going off for 160+ or falling off to 110.
Edit: I think I misread the thread topic, thought it was what’s the most realistic, not what’s best for him, in that case I’ll go option 1. If the choices are either winning the cup but not being Mcdavid-esque, or just accumulating awards, I think the awards are better for him. Mcdavid could chase Gretzky’s Ross and hart, and that would be what helps cement his legacy more imo. People will find a way to use the cup against him
- Matthews winning both the Hart and Lindsay, he MIGHT take one if he has 115-125 points but not taking both with a 30 point gap. Not to mention there is Mackinnon and kucherov and panarin and others to compete with too.
- Mcdavid isn’t having 21 in 24 in the playoffs, maybe 31 in 24.
Still I picked this because it seems much more realistic than either him going off for 160+ or falling off to 110.
Edit: I think I misread the thread topic, thought it was what’s the most realistic, not what’s best for him, in that case I’ll go option 1. If the choices are either winning the cup but not being Mcdavid-esque, or just accumulating awards, I think the awards are better for him. Mcdavid could chase Gretzky’s Ross and hart, and that would be what helps cement his legacy more imo. People will find a way to use the cup against him
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DitchMarner
TheGlitchintheSwitch
The poll is specifically for the 2024-2025 season, though. If he doesn't win next year, that doesn't mean he can't ever win. But next season may be one of the last seasons of his offensive prime. Personally, I think it would do more for his legacy to put up a near 170 point season and have a very strong showing in the playoffs (two points per game) than to be carried to a Cup win by Draisaitl or miss most of the playoffs and have the missing Cup part of his legacy sewn up.
This wouldn't be like when Ovechkin or Crosby (2016 or 2017) won the Cup, either. You can dispute if they were the rightful Smythe winners, but they were right there with their higher scoring teammates in points and importance. If Drai outscores the guy by 18 points in the playoffs, he'll literally be carrying him to a Stanley Cup. I think McDavid is good enough that he can win a Cup at some point without being carried to that extent.
McPoyle
Start breaking bricks wet nips
PainForShane
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Meh, idk how relevant that is in terms of legacy tbh. If McDavid scores 21 points in 24 games, that's more than respectable, especially considering he's likely drawing the tougher matchups and letting Drai feast on easier QoC (if Drai outscores him by that much they'd basically have to be playing on different ES lines). And in option 7 he's injured, coming back and scoring 6 points across 3 elimination games you'd assume would be incredibly relevant to the cup win, what else can anyone reasonably expect him to do he's injured.
Anyway like you said if McD doesn't win next year doesn't mean he can't ever win, but also like you implied at some point he'll have to lose half a step and then what happens to his offense -- unlike players like Sid, P. Kane, Kuch etc his entire offensive game is built around speed. I wouldn't be surprised at all if somewhere in the next 5-6 years he becomes a 30g / 100 - 110 pt guy with most of his points coming on the power play, hopefully we're far away from that but at some point it will likely happen. But I do think once McD loses half a step he's much more likely to have to be carried to a cup which I don't think will be necessary in the next few years.
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All that to say, best for him to win a cup as soon as possible imo, might as well be while putting up stupid regular season totals. But, even if his regular seasons start to drop off the cup's what matters more anyway. Also if Drai raises his level to help the Oilers win the cup, that's good for both their legacies, not the other way around.
Let's see if they can do it you know? Vegas bookmakers have them as the team most likely to win next year (+800 or +850), Oilers definitely have a good team. Either way it's very cool to be able to watch someone like him play hockey, he's so much fun to watch
TheGuiminator
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Option 1:
Another year at his peak level, achieving the highest non-Gretzky assists total in a season. He ties Lemieux and Howe with six Art Ross wins, matches Shore with four Hart Trophy wins, and breaks the all-time record with five Lindsay Trophy wins. If he adds another +30 points in the playoffs, he could potentially push his career into the top three of all time. However, the absence of a Cup would still leave a void in his resume.
Option 2:
In this case, he enters the conversation for the best regular season performance of all time and adds an excellent playoff run despite losing in the second round. At this point, you could argue that his level of play is at the same level as Lemieux and Gretzky.
Option 3:
In this case, he would ‘save himself’ for the playoffs and return as the offensive juggernaut during the playoffs, but would ultimately fail to lead his team to a cup. it wouldn’t add much to his legacy
Option 4:
McDavid’s level of play would only be second to Gretzky’s 51-game points streak from 1984. Aside from boosting his career points-per-game average, this wouldn’t add much to his career beyond a strong hart finish and 3rd a point finish.
Option 5:
McDavid's regular season performance would take a huge step down. However, breaking Gretzky’s playoff points record and Kurri’s goal record would be unprecedented. Winning back-to-back Smythe Trophies would likely place him among the top three playoff performers of all time, but without a Cup, it would still feel incomplete.
Option 6:
Winning the cup, even if he isn’t the bus driver, would still cement his legacy. His 2022 & 2024 playoff runs has already proven his excellence as a playoff performer. Finishing below point-per-game would be disappointing but doesn’t mean he would’ve played poorly; sometimes the puck just doesn’t go in. Would his SCF final numbers be good? OP didn’t specify, I’d assume he’d still be under ppg. However, A sixth Art Ross, a solid 21-point playoff run, and a Stanley Cup win would definitely enhance his all-time ranking.
Option 7:
This scenario would also cement his legacy as the undisputed top-5 player of all time, despite his team doing most of the heavy lifting on the road to the SCF. Even with missing so much time, people would give him the benefit of the doubt (rightly so) and assume he would have picked up where he left off, based on his all-time great playoff run in 2024. Scoring 6 clutch points in the last 3 games of the SCF would highlight his killer instinct and prevent him from looking 'weak,' unlike option 6.
That being said, I'm hesitating between option 2 and 7, but if I had to choose with a gun to my head, I'd probably pick option 2. McDavid having another Gretzky-level season at 28, while he’s expected to be on a natural decline at this age, would be incredibly impressive. It might be worth sacrificing a Stanley Cup win, which is inevitably going to happen anyway.
Another year at his peak level, achieving the highest non-Gretzky assists total in a season. He ties Lemieux and Howe with six Art Ross wins, matches Shore with four Hart Trophy wins, and breaks the all-time record with five Lindsay Trophy wins. If he adds another +30 points in the playoffs, he could potentially push his career into the top three of all time. However, the absence of a Cup would still leave a void in his resume.
Option 2:
In this case, he enters the conversation for the best regular season performance of all time and adds an excellent playoff run despite losing in the second round. At this point, you could argue that his level of play is at the same level as Lemieux and Gretzky.
Option 3:
In this case, he would ‘save himself’ for the playoffs and return as the offensive juggernaut during the playoffs, but would ultimately fail to lead his team to a cup. it wouldn’t add much to his legacy
Option 4:
McDavid’s level of play would only be second to Gretzky’s 51-game points streak from 1984. Aside from boosting his career points-per-game average, this wouldn’t add much to his career beyond a strong hart finish and 3rd a point finish.
Option 5:
McDavid's regular season performance would take a huge step down. However, breaking Gretzky’s playoff points record and Kurri’s goal record would be unprecedented. Winning back-to-back Smythe Trophies would likely place him among the top three playoff performers of all time, but without a Cup, it would still feel incomplete.
Option 6:
Winning the cup, even if he isn’t the bus driver, would still cement his legacy. His 2022 & 2024 playoff runs has already proven his excellence as a playoff performer. Finishing below point-per-game would be disappointing but doesn’t mean he would’ve played poorly; sometimes the puck just doesn’t go in. Would his SCF final numbers be good? OP didn’t specify, I’d assume he’d still be under ppg. However, A sixth Art Ross, a solid 21-point playoff run, and a Stanley Cup win would definitely enhance his all-time ranking.
Option 7:
This scenario would also cement his legacy as the undisputed top-5 player of all time, despite his team doing most of the heavy lifting on the road to the SCF. Even with missing so much time, people would give him the benefit of the doubt (rightly so) and assume he would have picked up where he left off, based on his all-time great playoff run in 2024. Scoring 6 clutch points in the last 3 games of the SCF would highlight his killer instinct and prevent him from looking 'weak,' unlike option 6.
That being said, I'm hesitating between option 2 and 7, but if I had to choose with a gun to my head, I'd probably pick option 2. McDavid having another Gretzky-level season at 28, while he’s expected to be on a natural decline at this age, would be incredibly impressive. It might be worth sacrificing a Stanley Cup win, which is inevitably going to happen anyway.
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Luigi Lemieux
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blundluntman
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I voted for option 7 and do think a cup is the missing piece in his legacy, but I don't agree with the bolded. Championships obviously are very important (and McDavid would prefer options 6/7 over the others), but option 4 is a level of dominance you're lucky to see as a fan once in 2 or 3 generations; people would talk about that for a very long time. It's the same reason casual fans remember Giguere's 03 smythe before his 07 cup (also why people bring up Richard's 50 in 50, Gretzky's 50 in 39/92 in 82 before bringing up their cups). The cup obviously cements your legacy, but most fans don't really talk about players' championship runs unless it's extremely dominant like Roy/Lemieux/Gretzky/etc. or in an exceptionally memorable narrative like Bourque/Yzerman. Option 7 would arguably be just as memorable of a story, but people would forget about option 6 pretty quickly.
WalterLundy
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It does get very annoying and I personally haven’t seen anything like it in hockey. It all comes down to gatekeeping I think and trying to fend off the inevitable. That being a 2-4 range all time career. That’s my suspicion at least. It’s easier just to sit back and enjoy watching history here.
As for the what if stuff I think there should be a movement to counter the pace arguments not just for McDavid’s sake but in general. Take a season like 2021-22 McDavid and stop it right at his first 22 games and pretend he got hurt or something. Same amount as Crosby 2012 only they were played consecutively here. He had 42 points and 16 goals in those 22 games so you can just pace that out to 82 games for 60 goals and 157 points. Instead of winning the Ross with the actual 123 points he now gets his 157 point season that he didn’t earn but now wins the Ross by 42 points. So now it is more dominant of an art Ross win than anything outside of 82-87 Gretzky.
Just an idea and it shows how silly it all really is. You can do the same with Gretzky’s first 51 games (153 points) of the 1983-84 season before the shoulder injury “derailed” (by his standards) his pace. We can stop that there and give him the 96 goal, 144 assist, 240 point 80 game pace he was on as his new all time record. I’ve thought about this for awhile since in these cases they actually still go on to win the Ross so why not use it to combat the lunacy?
Video Nasty
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I’m so glad you’re back from summer vacay.
