The Panther
Registered User
...?Leaving out the part where Yzerman was on a team with significantly worse offense than Gretzky or Lemieux.
I gave a detailed statistical breakdown, not an evaluation of each player.
...?Leaving out the part where Yzerman was on a team with significantly worse offense than Gretzky or Lemieux.
And a certain Paul Coffey... (like most... all ? near or more than 200 pts season)Guy scored at a 210 points/80 GP pace playing with Rob Brown and Bob Errey.
And a certain Paul Coffey... (like most... all ? near or more than 200 pts season)
There is only one guy who put up 200 point seasons. Also I’d say dominating your own teammates who are better relatively over a 9 year consecutive span in remarkable fashion is more impressive than against an overall lesser cast for one season. The average 2-5th Gretzky teammate in 1981-82 (before those players became the players they would) put up an average of 95 points in 80 games to Gretzky’s 212. The average for the entire span for his Edmonton career (80-88) is Gretzky at 192 per 80 and the average 2-5 teammate at 100 per 80. Compare that to Lemieux’s 1989 season he is at 209 per 80 with the average 2-5 teammate at 104 per 80.Yes, but the other guy who put up 200 point seasons also had Coffey and astronomically better linemates.
Lemieux was in on 57.4% of his teams offence which is a record.There is only one guy who put up 200 point seasons. Also I’d say dominating your own teammates who are better relatively over a 9 year consecutive span in remarkable fashion is more impressive than against an overall lesser cast for one season. The average 2-5th Gretzky teammate in 1981-82 (before those players became the players they would) put up an average of 95 points in 80 games to Gretzky’s 212. The average for the entire span for his Edmonton career (80-88) is Gretzky at 192 per 80 and the average 2-5 teammate at 100 per 80. Compare that to Lemieux’s 1989 season he is at 209 per 80 with the average 2-5 teammate at 104 per 80.
What Gretzky did in Edmonton in 1982 is better than what Lemieux did relative to his teammates in 1989. The fact that a dominance ratio over his best help is 1.92 for 9 years in a row and Lemieux is at a 2.00 dominance ratio with a lesser cast for one season tells you a lot and that using the teammate argument is foolish. As someone who saw both careers in their entirety they both had great help at various points. Lemieux in 1989 didn’t have the best cast overall but it was also a great environment for him to go all out and account for a lot of his teams production at his physical peak.
Point being no matter what the cast is, Gretzky (and Lemieux) are going to put up the numbers they did. To doubt that is silly. If anything their teammates get the benefit not them. It’s also not a reason to pick 88-89 as best overall. Gretzky has better seasons than that although it was incredible.
I know. The point about him putting up big numbers regardless stands as he was relied upon to do so when there isn’t much support. Lemieux in 1993 didnt see much of a ppg increase with better support and lower share on team goals. McDavid was in on 57.4% of his teams offense in 2021 as well.Lemieux was in on 57.4% of his teams offence which is a record.
56 games is not a full season.I know. The point about him putting up big numbers regardless stands as he was relied upon to do so when there isn’t much support. Lemieux in 1993 didnt see much of a ppg increase with better support and lower share on team goals. McDavid was in on 57.4% of his teams offense in 2021 as well.
The season was 56 games. He played all 56 games which is a full season by definition here. It’s more of a full season than playing 60 out of 84 like in 1993.56 games is not a full season.
He was also in the CHL. So yeah lets not compare.The season was 56 games. He played all 56 games which is a full season by definition here. It’s more of a full season than playing 60 out of 84 like in 1993.
He was also in the CHL. So yeah lets not compare. Still waiting for you to change that logo to an oilers one. Be yourself ol pal
Bobby Smith of the Habs, underrated elite two-way player and excellent playoff performer, overshadowed by teammates Roy and Chelios, but arguably a Smythe-worthy performance himself that year.this is still a great breakdown, except i don't know who Smith is!
It's probably not top 5.88-89 Lemieux is probably the best offensive season in NHL history.
I'm sure we're all well aware of Gretzky's longevity advantage by now. However when it comes to individual seasons, Lemieux's scoring dominance over his teammates was absolutely comparable to Gretzky's. Comparing a players stats solely to his closest teammate's numbers is a simplistic approach; After all when a player is on the ice he isn't just out there with one other teammate. 99% of the time he is out there with 3 to 5 teammates, not including the goalie. So I don't see how it wouldn't make more sense to compare one's performance against at least several of his peers rather than just one considering line mates and ice time isn't set in stone and we just don't know that data for either of them. Here's how they compare in the early years when they had limited support.What Gretzky did in Edmonton in 1982 is better than what Lemieux did relative to his teammates in 1989. The fact that a dominance ratio over his best help is 1.92 for 9 years in a row and Lemieux is at a 2.00 dominance ratio with a lesser cast for one season tells you a lot and that using the teammate argument is foolish. As someone who saw both careers in their entirety they both had great help at various points. Lemieux in 1989 didn’t have the best cast overall but it was also a great environment for him to go all out and account for a lot of his teams production at his physical peak.
Point being no matter what the cast is, Gretzky (and Lemieux) are going to put up the numbers they did. To doubt that is silly. If anything their teammates get the benefit not them. It’s also not a reason to pick 88-89 as best overall. Gretzky has better seasons than that although it was incredible.
| Gretzky | 80-81 | | | Lemieux | 87-88 | |
| 164 | +Pts | % | | 168 | +Pts | % |
2nd in scoring | 75 | 89 | 119% | | 79 | 89 | 113% |
3rd in scoring | 63 | 101 | 160% | | 74 | 94 | 127% |
4th in scoring | 60 | 104 | 173% | | 67 | 101 | 151% |
5th in scoring | 53 | 111 | 209% | | 45 | 123 | 273% |
6th in scoring | 53 | 111 | 209% | | 44 | 124 | 282% |
2nd to 6th combined | 304 | | 53.9% | | 309 | | 54.4% |
| Gretzky | 81-82 | | | Lemieux | 88-89 | |
| 212 | +Pts | % | | 199 | +Pts | % |
2nd in scoring | 105 | 107 | 102% | | 115 | 84 | 73% |
3rd in scoring | 89 | 123 | 138% | | 113 | 86 | 76% |
4th in scoring | 88 | 124 | 141% | | 94 | 105 | 112% |
5th in scoring | 86 | 126 | 147% | | 58 | 141 | 243% |
6th in scoring | 74 | 138 | 186% | | 49 | 150 | 306% |
2nd to 6th combined | 442 | | 48.0% | | 429 | | 46.4% |
removing missed games | 442 | 48.0% | 412 | 48.3% |
Good breakdown. All my point ever is when this topic comes up is that the teammate argument isn’t compelling. Either guy at their best is putting up 200+ with any cast in any scoring environment from 1980-1993 over a full season. That’s all I try to conveyI'm sure we're all well aware of Gretzky's longevity advantage by now. However when it comes to individual seasons, Lemieux's scoring dominance over his teammates was absolutely comparable to Gretzky's. Comparing a players stats solely to his closest teammate's numbers is a simplistic approach; After all when a player is on the ice he isn't just out there with one other teammate. 99% of the time he is out there with 3 to 5 teammates, not including the goalie. So I don't see how it wouldn't make more sense to compare one's performance against at least several of his peers rather than just one consider line mates and ice time isn't set in stone and we just don't know that data for either of them. Here's how they compare in the early years when they had limited support.
Gretzky Lemieux 80-81 +Pts 87-88 +Pts 164 168 2nd in scoring 75 89 119% 79 89 113% 3rd in scoring 63 101 160% 74 94 127% 4th in scoring 60 104 173% 67 101 151% 5th in scoring 53 111 209% 45 123 273% 6th in scoring 53 111 209% 44 124 282% 2nd to 6th combined 304 53.9% 309 54.4%
Gretzky Lemieux 81-82 +Pts 88-89 +Pts 4th pro season 212 199 2nd in scoring 105 107 102% 115 84 73% 3rd in scoring 89 123 138% 113 86 76% 4th in scoring 88 124 141% 94 105 112% 5th in scoring 86 126 147% 58 141 243% 6th in scoring 74 138 186% 49 150 306% 2nd to 6th combined 442 48.0% 429 46.4%removing missed games 442 48.0% 412 48.3%
Fair enough that I do not dispute.Good breakdown. All my point ever is when this topic comes up is that the teammate argument isn’t compelling. Either guy at their best is putting up 200+ with any cast in any scoring environment from 1980-1993 over a full season. That’s all I try to convey
In terms of overall ice time sure, but at even strength? That's pretty much impossible considering all the time Lemieux was spending on the powerplay and shorthanded in 88-89.Lemieux in 1989 is outscored as even strength by Guy Lafleur in 1977 (who had less ice-time).
I'm sure we're all well aware of Gretzky's longevity advantage by now. However when it comes to individual seasons, Lemieux's scoring dominance over his teammates was absolutely comparable to Gretzky's. Comparing a players stats solely to his closest teammate's numbers is a simplistic approach; After all when a player is on the ice he isn't just out there with one other teammate. 99% of the time he is out there with 3 to 5 teammates, not including the goalie. So I don't see how it wouldn't make more sense to compare one's performance against at least several of his peers rather than just one considering line mates and ice time isn't set in stone and we just don't know that data for either of them. Here's how they compare in the early years when they had limited support.
Gretzky 80-81 Lemieux 87-88 164 +Pts % 168 +Pts % 2nd in scoring 75 89 119% 79 89 113% 3rd in scoring 63 101 160% 74 94 127% 4th in scoring 60 104 173% 67 101 151% 5th in scoring 53 111 209% 45 123 273% 6th in scoring 53 111 209% 44 124 282% 2nd to 6th combined 304 53.9% 309 54.4%
Gretzky 81-82 Lemieux 88-89 212 +Pts % 199 +Pts % 2nd in scoring 105 107 102% 115 84 73% 3rd in scoring 89 123 138% 113 86 76% 4th in scoring 88 124 141% 94 105 112% 5th in scoring 86 126 147% 58 141 243% 6th in scoring 74 138 186% 49 150 306% 2nd to 6th combined 442 48.0% 429 46.4%removing missed games 442 48.0% 412 48.3%
I'm sure we're all well aware of Gretzky's longevity advantage by now. However when it comes to individual seasons, Lemieux's scoring dominance over his teammates was absolutely comparable to Gretzky's. Comparing a players stats solely to his closest teammate's numbers is a simplistic approach; After all when a player is on the ice he isn't just out there with one other teammate. 99% of the time he is out there with 3 to 5 teammates, not including the goalie. So I don't see how it wouldn't make more sense to compare one's performance against at least several of his peers rather than just one considering line mates and ice time isn't set in stone and we just don't know that data for either of them. Here's how they compare in the early years when they had limited support.
Gretzky 80-81 Lemieux 87-88 164 +Pts % 168 +Pts % 2nd in scoring 75 89 119% 79 89 113% 3rd in scoring 63 101 160% 74 94 127% 4th in scoring 60 104 173% 67 101 151% 5th in scoring 53 111 209% 45 123 273% 6th in scoring 53 111 209% 44 124 282% 2nd to 6th combined 304 53.9% 309 54.4%
Gretzky 81-82 Lemieux 88-89 212 +Pts % 199 +Pts % 2nd in scoring 105 107 102% 115 84 73% 3rd in scoring 89 123 138% 113 86 76% 4th in scoring 88 124 141% 94 105 112% 5th in scoring 86 126 147% 58 141 243% 6th in scoring 74 138 186% 49 150 306% 2nd to 6th combined 442 48.0% 429 46.4%removing missed games 442 48.0% 412 48.3%
Yep. It also means another 12 GA or so for the team.Lets not forget lemieux also had 100 pim. 199 points with 100 pim is actually disgusting
pim does not mean your team is on the pk too, there was a lot of penalty to both side of the ice, 10 minutes Misconducts, a little bit of fighting back in the days, for a player like Lemieux, it was not always trying to fix defensive mistake with a penalty, but retaliation's/fighting back.Yep. It also means another 12 GA or so for the team.
Better? Did Gretzky exclusively play with only one other player every time he stepped out onto the ice? Was he supported offensively only by Kurri during the entirety of the '81 and '82 seasons? Clearly, those are preposterous conclusions, so why place so much value on a stat that myopically suggest exactly that?Comparing to 2nd is simpler. It’s also better.
You’ve extended the sample to prop up Lemieux, which means that we must include a Matti Hagman, who had 1 primary assist and 2 secondary assists on Gretzky points.
Gretzky totals were not inflated by Matti Hagman.
But it’s helpful to use Hagman as a comparison because he played most of the season, and around 50% more games than his 6th place counterpart from the 88 Pens.
Omitting names and games played also obscures that the 4th best 88 Penguin was Paul Coffey, who played a little more than half the season, but still nearly outscored a near full season from 2nd place Kurri.
Gretzky | Gm | Team | G | PT | G% | PT% |
1979-80 | 79 | 300 | 51 | 137 | 17.0% | 45.7% |
1980-81 | 80 | 328 | 55 | 164 | 16.8% | 50.0% |
1981-82 | 80 | 417 | 92 | 212 | 22.1% | 50.8% |
1982-83 | 80 | 424 | 71 | 196 | 16.7% | 46.2% |
1983-84 | 74 | 427 | 87 | 205 | 20.4% | 48.0% |
1984-85 | 80 | 401 | 73 | 208 | 18.2% | 51.9% |
1985-86 | 80 | 426 | 52 | 215 | 12.2% | 50.5% |
1986-87 | 79 | 365 | 62 | 183 | 17.0% | 50.1% |
1987-88 | 64 | 305 | 40 | 149 | 13.1% | 48.9% |
Lemieux | Gm | Team | G | PT | G% | PT% |
1985-86 | 79 | 306 | 48 | 141 | 15.7% | 46.1% |
1986-87 | 63 | 243 | 54 | 107 | 22.2% | 44.0% |
1987-88 | 77 | 313 | 70 | 168 | 22.4% | 53.7% |
1988-89 | 76 | 336 | 85 | 199 | 25.3% | 59.2% |
1989-90 | 59 | 247 | 45 | 123 | 18.2% | 49.8% |
1991-92 | 64 | 289 | 44 | 131 | 15.2% | 45.3% |
1992-93 | 60 | 292 | 69 | 160 | 23.6% | 54.8% |
1995-96 | 70 | 331 | 69 | 161 | 20.8% | 48.6% |
1996-97 | 76 | 265 | 50 | 122 | 18.9% | 46.0% |
I feel the premise of looking at the second-third best scorer points on a Gretzky-Lemieux team can be a flawed premise.focusing solely on the second-leading scorer on each team ignores the contributions of other key teammates and situational factors.
It would indicate that he had more offensive support.In 88-89 if Lemieux has a Messier-Anderson level second line, has the exact same season but only has 52% of his team points what does that tell us ?
Sure I can see how it wouldn't be fair to compare his numbers to someone who scored much lower. But the two seasons I'm comparing featured very close point totals from the two(376 vs 367) therefor that really isn't a consideration here.it is impossible for him to separate himself from teammates more than a certain degree, just a mathematic way, same goes for percentage of his teams goals, the better he turn a team offense, the more his teams score goals, that lower your points percentages