Where will Ovechkin rank all time when he retires?

[um]

Tbf, outside of maybe McDavid, I don't think any of the players in tier 2 would have an MVP if their primes overlapped with Gretzky and Mario.

Out of everyone I have in tier 2, Roy's definitely the best playoff performer, has a very high peak (when you take era into account, it's much closer to Hasek's peak seasons), and insane longevity/consistency (finished top 3 in hart voting 1 season before retirement and was still vezina calibre at 37). You can definitely argue someone else belongs at #5 but I don't think other guys have overwhelmingly stronger cases.

In the year he finished 2nd Roy didn’t lose to Gretzky and Mario, he lost to Messier.

The year he finished 3rd he lost to Theodore.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Bobby Hull accomplished less than Ovechkin while competing against far lessor competition.

Didn't he compete against Howe and Beliveau in their prime years?

The case for him over Ovie is nostalgia plus a lack of context.

I think people have just been putting them in the same tier. Most have put OV a spot or two above Hull even. I think you are fighting invisible demons.

That's not to knock Hull, as his ranking as the 5th greatest player of all time is fine based on merit. It's a knock on the indefensibly low ratings of Ovechkin.

It feels like you are knocking Hull for some reason. Most people who have a good context of both of their careers put them very close in the standings. Go the the History of Hockey forum if you want to gain a bit more insight on Hull's career and why he is ranked so highly all time by most pundits. OV being alongside Hull on every list puts him in the top 10-15 on just about everyone's list still.

Lidstrom and Bourque were never in the conversation for best player in the world - which should matter when talking about the greatest players ever.

Agreed. Teams are built around game breaking offensive talents. The only defenseman that fits that bill is Orr unfortunately.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Tbf, outside of maybe McDavid, I don't think any of the players in tier 2 would have an MVP if their primes overlapped with Gretzky and Mario.

Out of everyone I have in tier 2, Roy's definitely the best playoff performer, has a very high peak (when you take era into account, it's much closer to Hasek's peak seasons), and insane longevity/consistency (finished top 3 in hart voting 1 season before retirement and was still vezina calibre at 37). You can definitely argue someone else belongs at #5 but I don't think other guys have overwhelmingly stronger cases.

This argument is a bit hyperbolic I think. Its actually hard to think a prime OV (2007-2010) wouldn't snag an MVP from Gretzky or Mario.

Damn you Midnight Judges. I think I can see a comfortable top 7 argument for OV.

Gretz
Lemieux/Howe/Orr/McDavid
Crosby/OV

 

[Ben Grimm]

... Agreed. Teams are built around game breaking offensive talents. The only defenseman that fits that bill is Orr unfortunately.

Bourque is 12th in points ahead of OV. Coffey is 16th in points.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Bourque is 12th in points ahead of OV. Coffey is 16th in points.

They played in the high scoring 80s and 90s and still are both going to be behind OV all time who isn't even a pass first player.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Didn't he compete against Howe and Beliveau in their prime years?

Bobby Hull is 11 years younger than Gordie Howe. In professional athletics, that's bordering on a generation.

Howe had extraordinary longevity, so yes they did compete. But it wasn't really peak Howe. All the same is true to a lesser degree for Beliveau who was 3 years younger than Howe.

I think people have just been putting them in the same tier. Most have put OV a spot or two above Hull even. I think you are fighting invisible demons.

The history forum ranked Bobby Hull 5th all time. They had Ovechkin 22nd.

 

[blundluntman]

In the year he finished 2nd Roy didn’t lose to Gretzky and Mario, he lost to Messier.

The year he finished 3rd he lost to Theodore.

I'm aware of that. My point is that most of his prime years were overshadowed by those two and there weren't many other opportunities to win a Hart. There's no guarantee that any of the other guys' Hart winning seasons (minus McDavid and maybe Hasek) win in 92 (given Messier had the whole NYR storyline going) or that they even occur in 92 to begin with; it's possible but things happen. Either way, I already admitted Roy's lack of a Hart trophy stands out, but he did finish top 5 on 5 occasions and is elite in every other category like I said.

This argument is a bit hyperbolic I think. Its actually hard to think a prime OV (2007-2010) wouldn't snag an MVP from Gretzky or Mario.

Damn you Midnight Judges. I think I can see a comfortable top 7 argument for OV.

Gretz
Lemieux/Howe/Orr/McDavid
Crosby/OV

It's possible, but I only think it'd happen if his 08 season occured in 91 or 92 when Gretzky/Mario had off years and there was voter fatigue. Either way, my point was it'd be very difficult and require good timing for anybody I had in tier 2 to snag a hart trophy during 86-96 since a player's peak years usually end around their mid to late 20s, none of them would have the same hart record they currently do. That's why I also have peak, consistency/longevity, playoff resumes, and feats as criteria for tier 2.

 

[Midnight Judges]

This argument is a bit hyperbolic I think. Its actually hard to think a prime OV (2007-2010) wouldn't snag an MVP from Gretzky or Mario.

Damn you Midnight Judges. I think I can see a comfortable top 7 argument for OV.

Gretz
Lemieux/Howe/Orr/McDavid
Crosby/OV

That's more or less how I see it.

 

[Ben Grimm]

... Agreed. Teams are built around game breaking offensive talents. The only defenseman that fits that bill is Orr unfortunately.

They played in the high scoring 80s and 90s and still are both going to be behind OV all time who isn't even a pass first player.

I knew this weak argument was coming. We're comparing apples to oranges, Ds to Fs. Bourque and Coffey are not "game breaking offensive talents"? Okay, you HHoF historian. I already proved you were wrong. Why don't you take this weak sauce to the History of Hockey forum and see what happens?

 

[wetcoast]

Agreed. See this post - Crosby currently ranks 5th all-time (1st excluding the Big Four) in Hart trophy shares ("all-time" going back to the late 1940's).

Mack at 18th already, quite surprised but somewhat not.

 

[wetcoast]

In the year he finished 2nd Roy didn’t lose to Gretzky and Mario, he lost to Messier.

The year he finished 3rd he lost to Theodore.

Still goalies and Dmen often don't get serious or fair consideration for the Hart so any argument about lack of Hart voting for goalies or Dmen is really weak on it's own right?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

I knew this weak argument was coming. We're comparing apples to oranges, Ds to Fs. Bourque and Coffey are not "game breaking offensive talents"? Okay, you HHoF historian. I already proved you were wrong. Why don't you take this weak sauce to the History of Hockey forum and see what happens?

No, they are not. Game breaking offensive talents get placed in a offensive, not defensive role. You must have never seen Coffey or Bourque play if you think they had the ability to generate offense in the same manner as the best offensive players of their time.

Still goalies and Dmen often don't get serious of fair consideration for the Hart so any argument about lack of Hart voting for goalies or Dmen is really weak on it's own right?

Its really unique and unusual for a team to build their system around a goalie or defenseman. The closest thing I can think of was the trap in New Jersey with Brodeur and Stevens/Nieds. It makes much more sense to hitch your wagon to a game breaking offensive talent and then to build your team system to fill the holes around that talent.

 

[wetcoast]

Didn't he compete against Howe and Beliveau in their prime years?

No not really as was outlined above wehn Hull entered the NHL elite circles in the 59-60 season, Jean was already 28 and Howe was 31.

I think people have just been putting them in the same tier. Most have put OV a spot or two above Hull even. I think you are fighting invisible demons.

I think that most people have Ovi above Hull and rightly so as they are first and foremost know as goal scorers and Ovi is the best goal scorer of all time.

It feels like you are knocking Hull for some reason. Most people who have a good context of both of their careers put them very close in the standings. Go the the History of Hockey forum if you want to gain a bit more insight on Hull's career and why he is ranked so highly all time by most pundits. OV being alongside Hull on every list puts him in the top 10-15 on just about everyone's list still.

They are close but the HOH forum really holds back current players and most players need a 5 year retirement before they get an more accurate and fair ranking on that forum.

That board as a whole also downplays the 6 team versus 30 to 32 team integrated elague to some degree as well.

All that being said the HOH section does have great posters that really consider all time questions more thoroughly than this section even with my interpretation of said biases.

Agreed. Teams are built around game breaking offensive talents. The only defenseman that fits that bill is Orr unfortunately.

 

[um]

Still goalies and Dmen often don't get serious of fair consideration for the Hart so any argument about lack of Hart voting for goalies or Dmen is really weak on its own right?

What goalies and dman have deserved the Hart recently?

Price is the only recent player and he won it in a landslide.

The argument that they can’t win it is weak.

 

[wetcoast]

What goalies and dman have deserved the Hart recently?

Price is the only recent player and he won it in a landslide.

The argument that they can’t win it is weak.

Just go look at Hart voting history and you can see the built in bias, in part because goalies and Dmen have their own trophy, if you can't see this then I don't know what to tell you.

Price only won in a landslide because no forward surpassed the majic 100 point mark and there was a Price Narrative going on and like most seasons using the actual Hart voting results isn't indicative of how valuable a player really is.

It's an isolated vote that some voters use different reasoning for their votes, ie most valuable to their team and sometimes best forward in the league but it ebbs and flows.

 

[Midnight Judges]

What goalies and dman have deserved the Hart recently?

Price is the only recent player and he won it in a landslide.

The argument that they can’t win it is weak.

You can show a numeric underrepresentation of the number of NHL players who are defensemen vs the number of NHL players who are nominated or win the Hart. It is a gaping and noticeable discrepancy.

From there, you simply have to assume the very best defensemen are as impactful as the very best forwards, and that the defensemen talent pool is as rich as the forward talent pool in terms of high end talent. Then you can make the case that defensemen are getting the shaft. But that's where the assertion breaks down IMO, because neither of those things tend to be true (more often than not).

 

[MeHateHe]

#9 in your program, #1 in my heart.
- V. Putin, probably.

 

[um]

You can show a numeric underrepresentation of the number of NHL players who are defensemen vs the number of NHL players who are nominated or win the Hart. It is a gaping and noticeable discrepancy.

From there, you simply have to assume the very best defensemen are as impactful as the very best forwards, and that the defensemen talent pool is as rich as the forward talent pool in terms of high end talent. Then you can make the case that defensemen are getting the shaft. But that's where the assertion breaks down IMO, because neither of those things tend to be true (more often than not).

Just go look at Hart voting history and you can see the built in bias, in part because goalies and Dmen have their own trophy, if you can't see this then I don't know what to tell you.

Price only won in a landslide because no forward surpassed the majic 100 point mark and there was a Price Narrative going on and like most seasons using the actual Hart voting results isn't indicative of how valuable a player really is.

It's an isolated vote that some voters use different reasoning for their votes, ie most valuable to their team and sometimes best forward in the league but it ebbs and flows.

Or, just from playing sports and hockey, guys and girls want to be forwards and score goals more than they want to play defense. It’s just human nature. Almost always do the star players in any sport gravitate toward playing the funnest position, that being the forward/striker/QB/whatever.

How often has the best player in the world been a dman or goalie? Orr definitely, Hasek maybe, Shore maybe, Tretiak? It’s a very short list.

It’s no conspiracy, the best players usually play forward. Center if you want to narrow it down even more.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Or, just from playing sports and hockey, guys and girls want to be forwards and score goals more than they want to play defense. It’s just human nature.

I think this is certainly true more often than not. It was definitely true when I was growing up. None of us wanted to play defense.

Maybe I worded my post poorly, but your point is consistent with the point I was attempting to make.

 

[wetcoast]

Or, just from playing sports and hockey, guys and girls want to be forwards and score goals more than they want to play defense. It’s just human nature. Almost always do the star players in any sport gravitate toward playing the funnest position, that being the forward/striker/QB/whatever.

How often has the best player in the world been a dman or goalie? Orr definitely, Hasek maybe, Shore maybe, Tretiak? It’s a very short list.

It’s no conspiracy, the best players usually play forward. Center if you want to narrow it down even more.

This makes more sense since we aren't talking only about winners but overall.

Even Orr was downvote on some Hart seasons which doesn't make sense looking back at it.

Just go look at Hart voting history and you can see the built in bias, in part because goalies and Dmen have their own trophy, if you can't see this then I don't know what to tell you.

Price only won in a landslide because no forward surpassed the majic 100 point mark and there was a Price Narrative going on and like most seasons using the actual Hart voting results isn't indicative of how valuable a player really is.

It's an isolated vote that some voters use different reasoning for their votes, ie most valuable to their team and sometimes best forward in the league but it ebbs and flows.