Where will Ovechkin rank all time when he retires?

[wetcoast]

Hard disagree

Not sure if either Crosby or OV have passed Bobby Hull. Have him 6th all time on my list

What exactly is the case for Hull over Crosby?

Mcdavid has passed him but these two are behind still and unlikely to pass.

At worse, Hull is right there with them for their careers.

I disagree.

He dominated the league and was the 2nd best player in the league usually behind after Howe and then Orr, two players in the top 4/5 all time

Well aside from the name dropping this isn't even really true most seasons.

59-60 he was second behind Howe.

60-61 Wasn't in the race at all

61-62 He was 3rd, Howe was 4th

62-63 wasn't in the race at all

63-64 Hull was second behind Jean

64-65 He won the Hart over Norm Ullman and then Howe both with Detroit (and looking back his win was weird because he missed 9 games was 4th in scoring behind both Detroit players and 16 points behind team mate stan Mikita.

65-66 he had his strongest win over Beliveau and Howe

66-67 He was 3rd behind Mikita and Giacomin, 18 year old bobby Orr was 6th and 38 year old Gordie Howe was 7th

67-68 He was 3rd behind Mikita, Beliveau was second at age 36, Orr was 4th but was 19 and missed 28 games and Howe was 5th at age 39.

68-69 He was 5th, Orr was 4th and still only 20 years old.

69-70 He wasn't in the top 10 his teammates finished 2,4 and 10th

70-71 He was 3rd behind a 22 year old Orr.

71-72 He was 7th

 

[hamzarocks]

What exactly is the case for Hull over Crosby?



I disagree.



Well aside from the name dropping this isn't even really true most seasons.

59-60 he was second behind Howe.

60-61 Wasn't in the race at all

61-62 He was 3rd, Howe was 4th

62-63 wasn't in the race at all

63-64 Hull was second behind Jean

64-65 He won the Hart over Norm Ullman and then Howe both with Detroit (and looking back his win was weird because he missed 9 games was 4th in scoring behind both Detroit players and 16 points behind team mate stan Mikita.

65-66 he had his strongest win over Beliveau and Howe

66-67 He was 3rd behind Mikita and Giacomin, 18 year old bobby Orr was 6th and 38 year old Gordie Howe was 7th

67-68 He was 3rd behind Mikita, Beliveau was second at age 36, Orr was 4th but was 19 and missed 28 games and Howe was 5th at age 39.

68-69 He was 5th, Orr was 4th and still only 20 years old.

69-70 He wasn't in the top 10 his teammates finished 2,4 and 10th

70-71 He was 3rd behind a 22 year old Orr.

71-72 He was 7th

How mamy years was Crosby the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league based on hart votes?

2006, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2018, 2020 he missed the cut

2008, 2011, 2012 you give due to injuries as he would have been 2nd, 1st, 1st those years

However that leaves 06, 09, 15, 18, and 2020 as years he wasnt a hart.finalist and wouldnt have been one either.

Still most people would say he was the best player in the league from 2006-2017 and still top 5ish until 2019.

Hull like Crosby was consistently amongst the leaders leaguewide, had consistently great hart, ross and goal scoring finishes.

Hull wasn't a center, but was as valuable as most centers then, being very highly regarded and consistent in his production.

He was the best player in the WHA on multiple years, and left the NHL at age 34, missing chances for further strong hart/ross finishes in 1973 and 1975 when Bobby Clarke won major hardware, and his teammate at 32-33 had 6th and 7th hart finished in 73 and 74, with Hull being the better player and missing chances for further top 3 or 5 hart finishes the next 2-3 years

Crosby, would be over Hull if he had been healthy, but his 08, 11, 12 injury years hurt his chance to be greater than him for me.

better player, talent and skillwise, yea can agree to that.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Yes n 59-60 hull won the Art Ross with this line 70-39-42-81.

Jean was 28 and finished 3rd with a line of 60-34-40-74.

Surely if Jean had played in 10 more games he would have had 7 or 8 more points?

He didn't though?

Howe was 31 for the 59-60 season and was by far the oldest player in the top 5 scoring year in year out when Hull played.

Yeah, he was top 5 in scoring because he was the GOAT.

To me this is just name dropping as in Hull's second Art Ross finish Jean was injured and only played in 43 games and was 30.

Howe putting together GOAT like seasons in his 30s is relevant, it isn't name dropping. Jean was a competitor for a couple of the Art Ross trophies, not sure why you are nit picking how I worded it.

The season before in 60-61 Jean had 90 points and Hull had 56.

The season after Howe led the NHL in scoring at age 34, Jean was 6th and Hull was 9th.

Okay? I know Howe and Jean are really good, that is why I brought them up.

Hull is an elite goal scorer but so is Ovi and as outlined above in an apples to apples or Canadian to Canadian comparison he really outdoes Hull.

I mean that is a magic scenario that takes a million what ifs into account, and OV still doesn't outdo Hull in hypothetical Art Ross trophies. You still haven't answered how OV is getting those magical trophies without Backstrom centering him.

 

[wetcoast]

He didn't though?

Yeah, he was top 5 in scoring because he was the GOAT.

Howe putting together GOAT like seasons in his 30s is relevant, it isn't name dropping. Jean was a competitor for a couple of the Art Ross trophies, not sure why you are nit picking how I worded it.

Okay? I know Howe and Jean are really good, that is why I brought them up.

I mean that is a magic scenario that takes a million what ifs into account, and OV still doesn't outdo Hull in hypothetical Art Ross trophies. You still haven't answered how OV is getting those magical trophies without Backstrom centering him.

You are getting really caught up in trophy counting and yes Hull has 3 art ross trophies to Ovi's single one but it's not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be either.

I like Hull a lot as a player but Ovi simply has longer and more relevant hockey over his career and accomplished more in the goal scoring category and both players are consider goal scorers first and foremost.

If Ovi gets 10 more points over 3 seasons he could easily have 4 Art Ross that's how close it really is and in larger league there is just going to be more variance and chances to be slightly off an Art Ross.

The point to me isn't that Ovi has 1,2,3 or even 4 Art Ross trophies it's that he was an elite producer for a very long time in a very difficult era of the NHL.

Both guys are still pretty close but I think Ovi has surpassed him a while back.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

How mamy years was Crosby the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league based on hart votes?

2006, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2018, 2020 he missed the cut

2008, 2011, 2012 you give due to injuries as he would have been 2nd, 1st, 1st those years

However that leaves 06, 09, 15, 18, and 2020 as years he wasnt a hart.finalist and wouldnt have been one either.

Still most people would say he was the best player in the league from 2006-2017 and still top 5ish until 2019.

Hull like Crosby was consistently amongst the leaders leaguewide, had consistently great hart, ross and goal scoring finishes.

Hull wasn't a center, but was as valuable as most centers then, being very highly regarded and consistent in his production.

He was the best player in the WHA on multiple years, and left the NHL at age 34, missing chances for further strong hart/ross finishes in 1973 and 1975 when Bobby Clarke won major hardware, and his teammate at 32-33 had 6th and 7th hart finished in 73 and 74, with Hull being the better player and missing chances for further top 3 or 5 hart finishes the next 2-3 years

Crosby, would be over Hull if he had been healthy, but his 08, 11, 12 injury years hurt his chance to be greater than him for me.

better player, talent and skillwise, yea can agree to that.

Top 5 Hart finishes 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,4,5
U will be hard pressed to find someone with better finishes not part of the big 4

 

[hamzarocks]

Top 5 Hart finishes 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,4,5
U will be hard pressed to find someone with better finishes not part of the big 4

Sure, Crosby is right there for non big 5 group

He can be as high as 6th or as low as 8th (Bobby Hull and Hasek)

Mcdavid has an incredible hart voting record as well and his will continue to grow vs Crosby who is likely done getting top 10 places now

Mcdavid at 27: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 5

 

[Caps8112]

I think this is flawed thinking. OV likely gets out compiled soon after he retires as scoring continues to tick up. His claim to fame of Greatest Goalscorer is very flawed. It should be based on the 9 Rockets.

Bobby Hull has 913 goals if you count WHA btw. I think its still fair to say he or Mario are better all time great scorers.

with that thinking, does Ovi get to count his 55 RSL goals? How many lockouts did Bobby Hull go through?
Someone will likely pass ovi one day but the goal total use to be thought of as unbreakable but because its Ovi it gets downplayed more and more on HF the closer he gets.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Top 5 Hart finishes 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,4,5
U will be hard pressed to find someone with better finishes not part of the big 4

Agreed. See this post - Crosby currently ranks 5th all-time (1st excluding the Big Four) in Hart trophy shares ("all-time" going back to the late 1940's).

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

You are getting really caught up in trophy counting and yes Hull has 3 art ross trophies to Ovi's single one but it's not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be either.

I am not getting caught up in trophy counting, I am using the Art Ross trophies Bobby Hull won as a proxy to demonstrate his superior point finishes.

I like Hull a lot as a player but Ovi simply has longer and more relevant hockey over his career and accomplished more in the goal scoring category and both players are consider goal scorers first and foremost.

Thats the basis of our disagreement. Hull simply had more time being relevant at the top of the points leaderboard for longer. That has to be taken into consideration. Yes OV outcompiled Hull, and that should be taken into consideration as well.

If Ovi gets 10 more points over 3 seasons he could easily have 4 Art Ross that's how close it really is and in larger league there is just going to be more variance and chances to be slightly off an Art Ross.

But he didn't. Hull narrowly missed out on Art Ross wins as well. I don't like this version of the 'what if' game.

The point to me isn't that Ovi has 1,2,3 or even 4 Art Ross trophies it's that he was an elite producer for a very long time in a very difficult era of the NHL.

Both guys are still pretty close but I think Ovi has surpassed him a while back.

I agree, and the point to me isn't that Hull has 3 Art Ross trophies to OV's 1. The point is that after 2010, OV was no longer considered a real threat to compete for the Art Ross trophy, whereas Hull spent his entire prime years as a real threat to the Art Ross trophy while also being a threat to win the Rocket. That is what gives Hull the edge for me, but they are so close I can see why one might prefer the other. That is why I rank them in the same grouping when doing rankings, because I haven't seen much that separates them.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

with that thinking, does Ovi get to count his 55 RSL goals? How many lockouts did Bobby Hull go through?
Someone will likely pass ovi one day but the goal total use to be thought of as unbreakable but because its Ovi it gets downplayed more and more on HF the closer he gets.

Sure, count it all. I was trying to demonstrate that Hull dominated the goal scoring race for a very long time, and by all measurements is just as impressive as a goal scorer and will be deservedly ranked alongside OV on these lists. OV has successfully out compiled him, and I am not trying to downplay that, but the gap isn't wide enough to just say that OV is a better goal scorer based on his sheer ability to out compile Hull.

 

[Caps8112]

Sure, count it all. I was trying to demonstrate that Hull dominated the goal scoring race for a very long time, and by all measurements is just as impressive as a goal scorer and will be deservedly ranked alongside OV on these lists. OV has successfully out compiled him, and I am not trying to downplay that, but the gap isn't wide enough to just say that OV is a better goal scorer based on his sheer ability to out compile Hull.

see this is the term that is used on HF often to cast a negative light on something without saying it. Seen it used a lot for players like Andreychuk and Gartner. Ovi didnt out compile Hull. He out played him. This is also a tough discussion given eras, game changing, equipment and Im sure 50 other things. We can only compare some aspects.

Hull 15 NHL seasons from age 18
GP: 1063 Goals: 610 = .5738/game

Ovi First 15 NHl Seasons from age 20 (advantage Ovi being older)

GP: 1152 Goals: 706 = .6128/game

You brought up Hulls WHA goals as a positive which it isnt. Hulls GPG goes from .5738 to .737 after joining a clearly inferior league.

Hull WHA GP: 411 Goals 303 = .737

Ovi plays the traditional over 30 down years in the NHL.

Ovi NHL season 16 on in the much more difficult league in what should be his lean years.
GP: 274 Goals: 147 = 2.5364

Factor in Hull played his entire NHL career against 95ish% canadians and half of it in a 6 team league. Think it was 16 teams by his last season but there isnt an argument for Hull imo. Doesnt mean he wasnt an amazing player though and era comparisons are always difficult.

 

[Duder54]

Damn
“Not even top 100”

Who is that user

Nobody who should be taken seriously, that's for sure.

 

[Duder54]

The History of Hockey sub-forum had him at #22 in 2018, six years ago.

1) Gretzky
2) Howe
3) Orr
4) Lemieux
5) Hull
6) Beliveau
7) Roy
8) Harvey
9) Richard
10) Bourque
11) Morenz
12) Crosby
13) Hasek
14) Shore
15) Lidstrom
16) Jagr
17) Kelly
18) Potvin
19) Plante
20) Nighbor
21) Messier
22) Ovechkin

So let's look at the players he's surpassed:

21) Messier
20) Nighbor
19) Plante
18) Potvin
17) Kelly

I think most would agree that he's passed them, putting him at 17th all time.

Now it gets harder. Is he better than:

16) Jagr
15) Lidstrom
14) Shore
13) Hasek
12) Crosby
11) Morenz
10) Bourque
9) Richard
8) Harvey
7) Roy
6) Beliveau
5) Hull

You also have to throw McDavid in the mix as well, who many project to be #5, supplanting Hull.

So how far down this list do you place Ovechkin? Higher than Jagr? Lidstrom?

Crosby has no doubt moved up the list himself, many have him also fighting for that #5 spot. Does Ovechkin join him in leapfrogging Hasek? Morenz? Bourque? Richard?

I think it's not as easy as it looks to just unilaterally place him in the top 10. I'm not against the idea, but you'll need to explain who he supplants.

Howie Morenz at #11 and Frank Nighbor @ #20? lol.

 

[Coffees]

Below Crosby

@Midnight Judges okay dude I owe you an apology, for years I was on you for bringing Crosby’s name down, but it does happen a lot vice versa in Ovi threads too …

 

[Toby91ca]

I’m fine with difference of opinion, lots of subjective stuff here, but based on the results, it looks like close to 20% of posters are dumb.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Top 10. Maybe top 15 if you factor how underwelming he was in best on best play.

Nope, Olympics are a joke

 

[Leafshater67]

@Midnight Judges okay dude I owe you an apology, for years I was on you for bringing Crosby’s name down, but it does happen a lot vice versa in Ovi threads too …

It’s pretty cool in one generation we got to watch one of the best players ever and one of the best (I think he is the best) goal scorer ever.

I still put Crosby ahead but it was super cool we got to watch them since teenagers

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

see this is the term that is used on HF often to cast a negative light on something without saying it. Seen it used a lot for players like Andreychuk and Gartner. Ovi didnt out compile Hull. He out played him. This is also a tough discussion given eras, game changing, equipment and Im sure 50 other things. We can only compare some aspects.

Hull 15 NHL seasons from age 18
GP: 1063 Goals: 610 = .5738/game

Ovi First 15 NHl Seasons from age 20 (advantage Ovi being older)

GP: 1152 Goals: 706 = .6128/game

Hull 13 NHL seasons from age 20
GP: 923 Goals: 579 = .63/game

Ovi First 13 NHL Seasons from age 20 (taking away advantage of Ovi being older and playing pro in Russia)

GP: 1003 Goals: 607 = .61/game

The problem is you are twisting stats. Hull matched OV in goal production from age 20 to age 33. While Hull maintained his status as a top point producer for far longer over that time compared to OV. The reality is OV stayed in the NHL longer and compiled longer than Hull, while Hull left for more money while the NHL was going through growing pains. He left on a 50 goal season, so he wasn't really declining either.

You brought up Hulls WHA goals as a positive which it isnt. Hulls GPG goes from .5738 to .737 after joining a clearly inferior league.

It was to demonstrate that he left on the top of his game, to join a league that paid him more money. He famously signed hockey's first million dollar contract in the WHA.

Hull WHA GP: 411 Goals 303 = .737

Ovi plays the traditional over 30 down years in the NHL.

Ovi NHL season 16 on in the much more difficult league in what should be his lean years.
GP: 274 Goals: 147 = 2.5364

I mean the league famously got more high scoring as OV aged. I would say they faced very similar competition.

Factor in Hull played his entire NHL career against 95ish% canadians and half of it in a 6 team league. Think it was 16 teams by his last season but there isnt an argument for Hull imo. Doesnt mean he wasnt an amazing player though and era comparisons are always difficult.

I mean factor in that Hull by all measurements was a very similar goal scorer as OV throughout his career while maintaining relevancy as an elite point producer for far longer than OV and I might edge towards Hull. You can try to twist stats to favor one or the other, OV for his insane compilation stats or Hull for his edge being relevant in the scoring race for longer. I really feel like they are a wash when I look at it objectively.

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Greatest goal scorer of all time IMO, basically averaged 50 goals per season for almost his entire career. Overwhelming physical presence, unique combination of speed, size and skill.

He would’ve excelled in any era of hockey, whether it’s run and gun like the 80s or DPE 2.0 in the early 2010s.

There’s no other Ovi in the hockey history books. He’s solidly in the top 10 all time, and closer to 5 than 10 I would say.

 

[Caps8112]

Hull 13 NHL seasons from age 20
GP: 923 Goals: 579 = .63/game

Ovi First 13 NHL Seasons from age 20 (taking away advantage of Ovi being older and playing pro in Russia)

GP: 1003 Goals: 607 = .61/game

The problem is you are twisting stats. Hull matched OV in goal production from age 20 to age 33. While Hull maintained his status as a top point producer for far longer over that time compared to OV. The reality is OV stayed in the NHL longer and compiled longer than Hull, while Hull left for more money while the NHL was going through growing pains. He left on a 50 goal season, so he wasn't really declining either.

It was to demonstrate that he left on the top of his game, to join a league that paid him more money. He famously signed hockey's first million dollar contract in the WHA.

I mean the league famously got more high scoring as OV aged. I would say they faced very similar competition.

I mean factor in that Hull by all measurements was a very similar goal scorer as OV throughout his career while maintaining relevancy as an elite point producer for far longer than OV and I might edge towards Hull. You can try to twist stats to favor one or the other, OV for his insane compilation stats or Hull for his edge being relevant in the scoring race for longer. I really feel like they are a wash when I look at it objectively.

In the time frame you outlined Ovi had more assists then Hull. Trying to follow your "top point producer" comment.

Hull left and rightfully so for the money but whos to say he maintains his nhl pace had he stayed aging in the more competitve and quickly changing NHL.

You really believe that the mid tier guys of today were equivalent to the mid tier guys of the 60s?

Again, the last bold doesnt make sense unless your referring to Hull only having a few superstars to compete with in the scoring race as opposed to Ovi having to compete against all the talent available in the world.

just varying opinions i guess

 

[centipede2233]

An all time list including goalies I have in no order

The top 4
Bourque
Lidstrom
Crosby
Mcdavid (when he retires)
Jagr
Hull
Hasek
Roy

I have ovie just outside top 10

 

[Midnight Judges]

Bobby Hull accomplished less than Ovechkin while competing against far lessor competition. The case for him over Ovie is nostalgia plus a lack of context.

That's not to knock Hull, as his ranking as the 5th greatest player of all time is fine based on merit. It's a knock on the indefensibly low ratings of Ovechkin.

Lidstrom and Bourque were never in the conversation for best player in the world - which should matter when talking about the greatest players ever.

 

[um]

I'd say right around top 15. I'll try to create my own list and see if he cracks it.

Tier 1 (In a class of their own due to peak, dominance, consistency, etc.)
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe

Tier 2: (Players with nearly generational peaks/feats and a bunch of hardware to back it up). Could probably switch a few players around but this is how I'd personally rank them.
5. Roy
6. Crosby
7. Hull
8. Hasek
9. McDavid

Tier 3 (Players with phenomenal longevity/consistency and very high peaks/primes. Outside of tier 2 either due to a lack of hardware, lower peak/prime and/or underwhelming playoff resume. Not much separates Tier 2 & 3 in all honesty; I wouldn't be upset if someone wanted to argue the two are actually just one large tier.)
10. Bourque
11. Beliveau
12. Richard
13. Harvey
14. Lidstrom
15. Jagr

I'd say Ovi's knocking on top 15 and belongs in tier 3. Just not sure I'd put him over any of the guys listed before him.

Voted top 20 but top 15 is fair.

It doesn’t make sense that your number 5 player has zero MVPs. He only finished in the top 3 twice.

 

[Felidae]

It's been the case for sometime now, but European NHL player have their own cemented "big 4" with Ovechkin, Jagr, Lidstrom and Hasek. They all play different positions too.

All of them can be ranked anywhere from the 15th to 5th spot.

 

[blundluntman]

It doesn’t make sense that your number 5 player has zero MVPs. He only finished in the top 3 twice.

Tbf, outside of maybe McDavid, I don't think any of the players in tier 2 would have an MVP if their primes overlapped with Gretzky and Mario.

Out of everyone I have in tier 2, Roy's definitely the best playoff performer, has a very high peak (when you take era into account, it's much closer to Hasek's peak seasons), and insane longevity/consistency (finished top 3 in hart voting 1 season before retirement and was still vezina calibre at 37). You can definitely argue someone else belongs at #5 but I don't think other guys have overwhelmingly stronger cases.