Where will Ovechkin rank all time when he retires?

[wetcoast]

Hard disagree

Not sure if either Crosby or OV have passed Bobby Hull. Have him 6th all time on my list

What exactly is the case for Hull over Crosby?

Mcdavid has passed him but these two are behind still and unlikely to pass.

At worse, Hull is right there with them for their careers.

I disagree.

He dominated the league and was the 2nd best player in the league usually behind after Howe and then Orr, two players in the top 4/5 all time

Well aside from the name dropping this isn't even really true most seasons.

59-60 he was second behind Howe.

60-61 Wasn't in the race at all

61-62 He was 3rd, Howe was 4th

62-63 wasn't in the race at all

63-64 Hull was second behind Jean

64-65 He won the Hart over Norm Ullman and then Howe both with Detroit (and looking back his win was weird because he missed 9 games was 4th in scoring behind both Detroit players and 16 points behind team mate stan Mikita.

65-66 he had his strongest win over Beliveau and Howe

66-67 He was 3rd behind Mikita and Giacomin, 18 year old bobby Orr was 6th and 38 year old Gordie Howe was 7th

67-68 He was 3rd behind Mikita, Beliveau was second at age 36, Orr was 4th but was 19 and missed 28 games and Howe was 5th at age 39.

68-69 He was 5th, Orr was 4th and still only 20 years old.

69-70 He wasn't in the top 10 his teammates finished 2,4 and 10th

70-71 He was 3rd behind a 22 year old Orr.

71-72 He was 7th

 

[hamzarocks]

What exactly is the case for Hull over Crosby?



I disagree.



Well aside from the name dropping this isn't even really true most seasons.

59-60 he was second behind Howe.

60-61 Wasn't in the race at all

61-62 He was 3rd, Howe was 4th

62-63 wasn't in the race at all

63-64 Hull was second behind Jean

64-65 He won the Hart over Norm Ullman and then Howe both with Detroit (and looking back his win was weird because he missed 9 games was 4th in scoring behind both Detroit players and 16 points behind team mate stan Mikita.

65-66 he had his strongest win over Beliveau and Howe

66-67 He was 3rd behind Mikita and Giacomin, 18 year old bobby Orr was 6th and 38 year old Gordie Howe was 7th

67-68 He was 3rd behind Mikita, Beliveau was second at age 36, Orr was 4th but was 19 and missed 28 games and Howe was 5th at age 39.

68-69 He was 5th, Orr was 4th and still only 20 years old.

69-70 He wasn't in the top 10 his teammates finished 2,4 and 10th

70-71 He was 3rd behind a 22 year old Orr.

71-72 He was 7th

How mamy years was Crosby the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league based on hart votes?

2006, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2018, 2020 he missed the cut

2008, 2011, 2012 you give due to injuries as he would have been 2nd, 1st, 1st those years

However that leaves 06, 09, 15, 18, and 2020 as years he wasnt a hart.finalist and wouldnt have been one either.

Still most people would say he was the best player in the league from 2006-2017 and still top 5ish until 2019.

Hull like Crosby was consistently amongst the leaders leaguewide, had consistently great hart, ross and goal scoring finishes.

Hull wasn't a center, but was as valuable as most centers then, being very highly regarded and consistent in his production.

He was the best player in the WHA on multiple years, and left the NHL at age 34, missing chances for further strong hart/ross finishes in 1973 and 1975 when Bobby Clarke won major hardware, and his teammate at 32-33 had 6th and 7th hart finished in 73 and 74, with Hull being the better player and missing chances for further top 3 or 5 hart finishes the next 2-3 years

Crosby, would be over Hull if he had been healthy, but his 08, 11, 12 injury years hurt his chance to be greater than him for me.

better player, talent and skillwise, yea can agree to that.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Yes n 59-60 hull won the Art Ross with this line 70-39-42-81.

Jean was 28 and finished 3rd with a line of 60-34-40-74.

Surely if Jean had played in 10 more games he would have had 7 or 8 more points?

He didn't though?

Howe was 31 for the 59-60 season and was by far the oldest player in the top 5 scoring year in year out when Hull played.

Yeah, he was top 5 in scoring because he was the GOAT.

To me this is just name dropping as in Hull's second Art Ross finish Jean was injured and only played in 43 games and was 30.

Howe putting together GOAT like seasons in his 30s is relevant, it isn't name dropping. Jean was a competitor for a couple of the Art Ross trophies, not sure why you are nit picking how I worded it.

The season before in 60-61 Jean had 90 points and Hull had 56.

The season after Howe led the NHL in scoring at age 34, Jean was 6th and Hull was 9th.

Okay? I know Howe and Jean are really good, that is why I brought them up.

Hull is an elite goal scorer but so is Ovi and as outlined above in an apples to apples or Canadian to Canadian comparison he really outdoes Hull.

I mean that is a magic scenario that takes a million what ifs into account, and OV still doesn't outdo Hull in hypothetical Art Ross trophies. You still haven't answered how OV is getting those magical trophies without Backstrom centering him.

 

[wetcoast]

He didn't though?

Yeah, he was top 5 in scoring because he was the GOAT.

Howe putting together GOAT like seasons in his 30s is relevant, it isn't name dropping. Jean was a competitor for a couple of the Art Ross trophies, not sure why you are nit picking how I worded it.

Okay? I know Howe and Jean are really good, that is why I brought them up.

I mean that is a magic scenario that takes a million what ifs into account, and OV still doesn't outdo Hull in hypothetical Art Ross trophies. You still haven't answered how OV is getting those magical trophies without Backstrom centering him.

You are getting really caught up in trophy counting and yes Hull has 3 art ross trophies to Ovi's single one but it's not as big of a deal as you are making it out to be either.

I like Hull a lot as a player but Ovi simply has longer and more relevant hockey over his career and accomplished more in the goal scoring category and both players are consider goal scorers first and foremost.

If Ovi gets 10 more points over 3 seasons he could easily have 4 Art Ross that's how close it really is and in larger league there is just going to be more variance and chances to be slightly off an Art Ross.

The point to me isn't that Ovi has 1,2,3 or even 4 Art Ross trophies it's that he was an elite producer for a very long time in a very difficult era of the NHL.

Both guys are still pretty close but I think Ovi has surpassed him a while back.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

How mamy years was Crosby the 2nd or 3rd best player in the league based on hart votes?

2006, 2008, 2009, 2011, 2012, 2015, 2018, 2020 he missed the cut

2008, 2011, 2012 you give due to injuries as he would have been 2nd, 1st, 1st those years

However that leaves 06, 09, 15, 18, and 2020 as years he wasnt a hart.finalist and wouldnt have been one either.

Still most people would say he was the best player in the league from 2006-2017 and still top 5ish until 2019.

Hull like Crosby was consistently amongst the leaders leaguewide, had consistently great hart, ross and goal scoring finishes.

Hull wasn't a center, but was as valuable as most centers then, being very highly regarded and consistent in his production.

He was the best player in the WHA on multiple years, and left the NHL at age 34, missing chances for further strong hart/ross finishes in 1973 and 1975 when Bobby Clarke won major hardware, and his teammate at 32-33 had 6th and 7th hart finished in 73 and 74, with Hull being the better player and missing chances for further top 3 or 5 hart finishes the next 2-3 years

Crosby, would be over Hull if he had been healthy, but his 08, 11, 12 injury years hurt his chance to be greater than him for me.

better player, talent and skillwise, yea can agree to that.

Top 5 Hart finishes 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,4,5
U will be hard pressed to find someone with better finishes not part of the big 4

 

[hamzarocks]

Top 5 Hart finishes 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,4,5
U will be hard pressed to find someone with better finishes not part of the big 4

Sure, Crosby is right there for non big 5 group

He can be as high as 6th or as low as 8th (Bobby Hull and Hasek)

Mcdavid has an incredible hart voting record as well and his will continue to grow vs Crosby who is likely done getting top 10 places now

Mcdavid at 27: 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 5, 5

 

[Caps8112]

I think this is flawed thinking. OV likely gets out compiled soon after he retires as scoring continues to tick up. His claim to fame of Greatest Goalscorer is very flawed. It should be based on the 9 Rockets.

Bobby Hull has 913 goals if you count WHA btw. I think its still fair to say he or Mario are better all time great scorers.

with that thinking, does Ovi get to count his 55 RSL goals? How many lockouts did Bobby Hull go through?
Someone will likely pass ovi one day but the goal total use to be thought of as unbreakable but because its Ovi it gets downplayed more and more on HF the closer he gets.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Top 5 Hart finishes 1,1,2,2,2,2,3,4,5
U will be hard pressed to find someone with better finishes not part of the big 4

Agreed. See this post - Crosby currently ranks 5th all-time (1st excluding the Big Four) in Hart trophy shares ("all-time" going back to the late 1940's).