Where will Ovechkin rank all time when he retires?

[JackSlater]

I'd say generally 15-5. When he retires he will be overrated for a while, as happens with pretty much all all time greats, but he'll settle from 15-5 (and probably in the middle of that range) for a long time I think. His biggest threat historically will be if Matthews continues plugging along and scores a comparable, or greater, amount of goals.

 

[The Nuge]

By the time McDavid retires it’s clearly going to be the “big 5”, but Ovi’s in that next tier, where I could easily see a case for having him 6th, or not even quite top 10. There’s so many guys like Roy, Lidstrom, Crosby, Bourque, Jagr, Hasek etc who all have a strong case for 6-10. Imo, he deserves to be in that tier since he’s the greatest scorer of all time

 

[wetcoast]

13th

1. Gretzky
2. Howe
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Beliveau
6. Harvey
7. Crosby
8. McDavid
9. Hull
10. Bourque
11. Hasek
12. Jagr
13. Ovechkin

I know that we have been over this territory before but really is the argument for Beliveau and Harvey really past the smell test here over Crosby?

Harvey took till his later 20s to get going at his insane level and Beliveau had some down years.

Heck both crosby and Beliveau have 12 seasons in top 10 scoring but the huge difference being the size of the league and competition.

If one were to take out all non Canadians to make it an apples to apples comparison this is how it would shake out.

But before we do that let's look at their top 10 scoring finishes straight up.


Beliveau 1,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,6,8,8,9
Crosby 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10,10

Taking out same finishes we end up with this.

Jean 4,8,8,9
Sid 1,5,10,10

Here is Crosby in a Canadian to Canadian apples to apples finishes

05-06 goes from 6 to 3rd

06-07 stays the same

07-08 goes from 29th to 18th with 72 points in 32 games played (just for comparative purposes Jean played in 55 of 70 games in 57-58 and still finishes 8th in scoring that what 18 first line players compared to 90 will do).

08-09 3rd to 1st

09-10 2nd to 1st

10-11 30th to 20th in only 41 GP

11-12 37 points in 22 G

12-13 stays in 3rd place with 56 points in 36 games (48 game season)

13-14 stays in first place

14-15 stays in 3rd place 3 points being the leader with 5 games missed

15-16 3rd to 2nd

16-17 stays in 2nd place

17-18 10th to 5th place

18-19 5th to 2nd

19-20 41 game season

20-21 10th to 6th

21-22 24th to 9th in 69 of 82 GP

22-23 16th to 6th

23-24 12th to 3rd

Now why exactly would you have Crosby behind Jean here?

 

[jigglysquishy]

I know that we have been over this territory before but really is the argument for Beliveau and Harvey really past the smell test here over Crosby?

Harvey took till his later 20s to get going at his insane level and Beliveau had some down years.

Heck both crosby and Beliveau have 12 seasons in top 10 scoring but the huge difference being the size of the league and competition.

If one were to take out all non Canadians to make it an apples to apples comparison this is how it would shake out.

But before we do that let's look at their top 10 scoring finishes straight up.


Beliveau 1,2,2,3,3,3,3,4,6,8,8,9
Crosby 1,1,2,2,3,3,3,3,5,6,10,10

Taking out same finishes we end up with this.

Jean 4,8,8,9
Sid 1,5,10,10

Here is Crosby in a Canadian to Canadian apples to apples finishes

05-06 goes from 6 to 3rd

06-07 stays the same

07-08 goes from 29th to 18th with 72 points in 32 games played (just for comparative purposes Jean played in 55 of 70 games in 57-58 and still finishes 8th in scoring that what 18 first line players compared to 90 will do).

08-09 3rd to 1st

09-10 2nd to 1st

10-11 30th to 20th in only 41 GP

11-12 37 points in 22 G

12-13 stays in 3rd place with 56 points in 36 games (48 game season)

13-14 stays in first place

14-15 stays in 3rd place 3 points being the leader with 5 games missed

15-16 3rd to 2nd

16-17 stays in 2nd place

17-18 10th to 5th place

18-19 5th to 2nd

19-20 41 game season

20-21 10th to 6th

21-22 24th to 9th in 69 of 82 GP

22-23 16th to 6th

23-24 12th to 3rd

Now why exactly would you have Crosby behind Jean here?

I don't think there's a huge gap. Still possible Crosby overtakes him

Beliveau was much better defensively and for much longer.

Beliveau has the clear cut better single season of the two of them. Has the best single playoffs between the two.

I've always loved how Beliveau kept it up so late in his career. 1969 regular season. Going over a PPG in 1971 to win the Cup.

 

[PensPlz]

If he finishes with the most goals record then idk how you don't rank him top 5.

Gretzky, Mario, Orr, Sid, Ovie... In just about really any order. I won't argue much.

But I still picked top 10 just in case he doesn't make it.

 

[wetcoast]

I don't think there's a huge gap. Still possible Crosby overtakes him

Personally I think Crosby overtook Jean several seasons ago

Beliveau was much better defensively and for much longer.

Maybe but even if that's really the case how much does it factor into the equation really?

Beliveau has the clear cut better single season of the two of them. Has the best single playoffs between the two.

Jean also has the lower seasons between the 2 guys and it's not even really close.

furthermore it's hard not to argue that crosby, if ehalthy has at least one season from 10-11 to 12-13 and maybe more as good or better than Beliveau's best seasons.

Playoffs it get a bit trickier but Crosby ahs been the best playoff performer of his generation much like Jean and is there a big difference here really?

I've always loved how Beliveau kept it up so late in his career. 1969 regular season. Going over a PPG in 1971 to win the Cup.

Once again those 2 things are great but Jean is less consistent in elite play compared to Crosby.

Jean also has 4 straight playoffs in the early 60s were he doesn't look so good and it's compounded by the number of elite to very good players on his club.

All in all taking in consideration team, league and individual circumstances it's looking really hard to place Jean over Sid when it's looked at critically and it has been that way for several season now.

 

[innitfam]

Top 15 or 20

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I will never understand the love Beliveau gets, in my opinion he doesn't deserve to be on any all time list that Lafleur isn't on. Lafleur was a better player at his peak than Beliveau.

When comparing their best six seasons, there isn't much that separates Beliveau and Lafleur. Beyond that, the comparison becomes laughably one-sided.

Outside of his best six years, Lafleur accomplished absolutely nothing of significance (for a top 25 all-time player). He had one season where he placed 28th in scoring (that was his only time in the top thirty). He got one (yes, literally one) vote for the Hart trophy, and that's it. He won a Stanley Cup as secondary player on a stacked team, but was far below 1 PPG in the playoffs.

If you remove Beliveau's best six years, you're still left with a HOF career. (It's not even clear which were his best six years, but to keep it simple, let's go with 1955 to 1960). This version of Beliveau still won a Hart trophy and had two more years as runner-up. He won a Conn Smythe trophy. He won five Stanley Cups (he was the leading scorer on two of them, and was no lower than third on any of them). He'd still have six years as a top ten scorer (peaking as runner-up for the Art Ross). He still led the league in assists twice (and was one assist away from tying for a third lead). And he still would have retired 16th all-time in scoring.

 

[pi314]

Will be remembered as a top 10-15 guy by most…

…but I can think of at least 20 players I’d rather go to a game 7 with.

When I was older, I played floor hockey one season for fun.

The guy who lead the league in goals?

Parked himself in front of the other goalie the whole game. He waited for everyone else to do the real work.

Even if he scored 100 goals, so did the other team.

Not even sure he was a net positive.

But he had stats and goals.

Ovechkin is the NHL equivalent of that guy.

Empty calories.

I’ve seen him cherry pick in obvious defensive situations more than 100 other players combined.

Compiling personal stats. Second empty net goals. Cherry picking in a 6-1 game. Etc.

The fact that he’s been compared to Crosby is funny.

It’s like comparing Shohei Otani to Adam Dunn because they both hit home runs.

One guy does everything well. Not a hole in his game.

The other could do only 1 thing. And had gaping holes everywhere else.

But the thing Ovechkin does shows up big on highlights and sells tickets.

He’s already comically overrated but it will be even funnier if he breaks the record.

 

[authentic]

The History of Hockey sub-forum had him at #22 in 2018, six years ago.

1) Gretzky
2) Howe
3) Orr
4) Lemieux
5) Hull
6) Beliveau
7) Roy
8) Harvey
9) Richard
10) Bourque
11) Morenz
12) Crosby
13) Hasek
14) Shore
15) Lidstrom
16) Jagr
17) Kelly
18) Potvin
19) Plante
20) Nighbor
21) Messier
22) Ovechkin

So let's look at the players he's surpassed:

21) Messier
20) Nighbor
19) Plante
18) Potvin
17) Kelly

I think most would agree that he's passed them, putting him at 17th all time.

Now it gets harder. Is he better than:

16) Jagr
15) Lidstrom
14) Shore
13) Hasek
12) Crosby
11) Morenz
10) Bourque
9) Richard
8) Harvey
7) Roy
6) Beliveau
5) Hull

You also have to throw McDavid in the mix as well, who many project to be #5, supplanting Hull.

So how far down this list do you place Ovechkin? Higher than Jagr? Lidstrom?

Crosby has no doubt moved up the list himself, many have him also fighting for that #5 spot. Does Ovechkin join him in leapfrogging Hasek? Morenz? Bourque? Richard?

I think it's not as easy as it looks to just unilaterally place him in the top 10. I'm not against the idea, but you'll need to explain who he supplants.

I think he comfortably takes Richard’s place

 

[SillyRabbit]

I think he comfortably takes Richard’s place

Is it as simple as just slotting him in ahead of Richard?

Then you need to ask yourself, is Richard ahead of Bourque, Morenz, Crosby, McDavid, Hasek, Shore, Jagr and Lidstrom?

If no, then which of those is Ovechkin better than?

I think it makes sense to go down the list one by one when trying to decide where he ranks rather than just picking a player who you think he’s better than and putting him next to them.

 

[authentic]

Is it as simple as just slotting him in ahead of Richard?

Then you need to ask yourself, is Richard ahead of Bourque, Morenz, Crosby, McDavid, Hasek, Shore, Jagr and Lidstrom?

If no, then which of those is Ovechkin better than?

I think it makes sense to go down the list one by one when trying to decide where he ranks rather than just picking a player who you think he’s better than and putting him next to them.

True, I don’t really think Richard should be top 10 at this point. Crosby, McDavid, Jagr, Hull and Ovechkin should atleast be ranked ahead for forwards and Hasek for goalies. I would probably put everyone else there ahead of him as well come to think of it along with Beliveau.

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

1. Gretzky
2. Lemieux
3. Orr
4. Howe
5. Crosby
6. Jagr
7. Hasek
8. Bourque
9. Lidstrom
10. Ovechkin

Personally I don't put much weight into pre expansion hockey.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

When comparing their best six seasons, there isn't much that separates Beliveau and Lafleur. Beyond that, the comparison becomes laughably one-sided.

Well I just disagree. Lafleur had a peak so dominant from 75-78 that only Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe can find a stretch to rival it. Beliveau didn't dominate like that. Lafleur didn't maintain it for long enough for you to appreciate it I guess. This is why all time rankings can be subjective, because I don't need someone to do something for 10+ years for me to recognize them.

The stretch OV put up from 2008-2011 was long enough for me to feel he proved himself at a higher level for a sustained period of time. I appreciate people adapting their game and finding ways to be the best year in and year out, but injuries happen and players get older.

 

[wetcoast]

Well I just disagree. Lafleur had a peak so dominant from 75-78 that only Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe can find a stretch to rival it. Beliveau didn't dominate like that. Lafleur didn't maintain it for long enough for you to appreciate it I guess. This is why all time rankings can be subjective, because I don't need someone to do something for 10+ years for me to recognize them.

The stretch OV put up from 2008-2011 was long enough for me to feel he proved himself at a higher level for a sustained period of time. I appreciate people adapting their game and finding ways to be the best year in and year out, but injuries happen and players get older.

Do you really think the 10-11 season helps Oveckins all time case that much?

And sure he had a great 3 year run, much like Lafleur for 6 years but they need some staying power, one can't simply dismiss the low points in any players career and then be taken seriously right?

 

[Fataldogg]

A lot of the people saying below Crosby are going to be surprised at published lists that happen after Ovechkin breaks the goal scoring record.

If Ovechkin scores over 900 goals, media outlets I suspect will rank Ovechkin above him whether one agrees with that or not.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Do you really think the 10-11 season helps Oveckins all time case that much?

And sure he had a great 3 year run, much like Lafleur for 6 years but they need some staying power, one can't simply dismiss the low points in any players career and then be taken seriously right?

I got the years slightly wrong, it was more like 2007-2010. It was an insane run, and the player OV was from 2006-2010 was uniquely different than the rest of his career. OV can't be young forever, and he relied more on his athleticism than other players to play at that level. I just don't like this aspect of judging an all time list without having criteria attached to it, because that level that OV hit was a level that Beliveau couldn't sniff, and should be acknowledged.

2007-2010 OV
75-78 Lafleur
Any of Beliveau's prime years
The rest of OV's prime years
The rest of Lafleur's prime years

Is how I would rank them, and I think thats pretty universal. If Jean is considered to have a better career than OV and Lafleur thats fine, but we should at least be able to point out that at their best Jean was the worst of the 3.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

A lot of the people saying below Crosby are going to be surprised at published lists that happen after Ovechkin breaks the goal scoring record.

If Ovechkin scores over 900 goals, media outlets I suspect will rank Ovechkin above him whether one agrees with that or not.

I don't think they will be surprised. OV has ranked above Crosby on lists by hot take media outlets his entire career. It just will never be a majority opinion.

 

[authentic]

Well I just disagree. Lafleur had a peak so dominant from 75-78 that only Gretzky/Lemieux/Howe can find a stretch to rival it. Beliveau didn't dominate like that. Lafleur didn't maintain it for long enough for you to appreciate it I guess. This is why all time rankings can be subjective, because I don't need someone to do something for 10+ years for me to recognize them.

The stretch OV put up from 2008-2011 was long enough for me to feel he proved himself at a higher level for a sustained period of time. I appreciate people adapting their game and finding ways to be the best year in and year out, but injuries happen and players get older.

Esposito? Jagr?

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Esposito? Jagr?

I have Jagr and Esposito in that beliveau mix as well. I am okay with people exchanging those 3 names around as they see fit. All legends of similar ilk.

 

[blundluntman]

I'd say right around top 15. I'll try to create my own list and see if he cracks it.

Tier 1 (In a class of their own due to peak, dominance, consistency, etc.)
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe

Tier 2: (Players with nearly generational peaks/feats and a bunch of hardware to back it up). Could probably switch a few players around but this is how I'd personally rank them.
5. Roy
6. Crosby
7. Hull
8. Hasek
9. McDavid

Tier 3 (Players with phenomenal longevity/consistency and very high peaks/primes. Outside of tier 2 either due to a lack of hardware, lower peak/prime and/or underwhelming playoff resume. Not much separates Tier 2 & 3 in all honesty; I wouldn't be upset if someone wanted to argue the two are actually just one large tier.)
10. Bourque
11. Beliveau
12. Richard
13. Harvey
14. Lidstrom
15. Jagr

I'd say Ovi's knocking on top 15 and belongs in tier 3. Just not sure I'd put him over any of the guys listed before him.

Voted top 20 but top 15 is fair.

 

[ViD]

By the time McDavid retires it’s clearly going to be the “big 5”, but Ovi’s in that next tier, where I could easily see a case for having him 6th, or not even quite top 10. There’s so many guys like Roy, Lidstrom, Crosby, Bourque, Jagr, Hasek etc who all have a strong case for 6-10. Imo, he deserves to be in that tier since he’s the greatest scorer of all time

Without the cup McDavid will never sniff the top 5

 

[psycat]

I'd say right around top 15. I'll try to create my own list and see if he cracks it.

Tier 1 (In a class of their own due to peak, dominance, consistency, etc.)
1. Gretzky
2. Orr
3. Lemieux
4. Howe

Tier 2: (Players with nearly generational peaks/feats and a bunch of hardware to back it up). Could probably switch a few players around but this is how I'd personally rank them.
5. Roy
6. Crosby
7. Hull
8. Hasek
9. McDavid

Tier 3 (Players with phenomenal longevity/consistency and very high peaks/primes. Outside of tier 2 either due to a lack of hardware, lower peak/prime and/or underwhelming playoff resume. Not much separates Tier 2 & 3 in all honesty; I wouldn't be upset if someone wanted to argue the two are actually just one large tier.)
10. Bourque
11. Beliveau
12. Richard
13. Harvey
14. Lidstrom
15. Jagr

I'd say Ovi's knocking on top 15 and belongs in tier 3. Just not sure I'd put him over any of the guys listed before him.

Voted top 20 but top 15 is fair.

Kinda agree with this, Crosy and Roy are in the 3rd tier for sure though. Jagr arguably in the second.

 

[blundluntman]

Kinda agree with this, Crosy and Roy are in the 3rd tier for sure though. Jagr arguably in the second.

I'd say their peaks were tier 2 level but it's harder to evaluate due to injuries (in Crosby's case) and era-deflated stats (in Roy's case). I'd still take both at their best over anyone in tier 3 though (especially if you factor in the playoffs for Roy's case). But yeah you can definitely argue some players belong in tier 2/3 depending on how you evaluate players.

 

[authentic]

I have Jagr and Esposito in that beliveau mix as well. I am okay with people exchanging those 3 names around as they see fit. All legends of similar ilk.

How was Lafleur’s peak any better than them though. Statistically Jagr did more for longer and on worse teams with clearly worse offensive support. He has Lafleur beat in peak, prime and length of each.