Where will Connor McDavid rank all-time by the time he retires?

[jigglysquishy]

3rd highest peak value after Grez and Lemieux. Has change to take over Lemieux in career value


Orr has claim, but Howe doesn't

Howe peaked nearly as high offensively while being the best defensive winger in the world. And has the singular best longevity in the sport's history.

Howe over Lemieux is a very easy choice.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Howe peaked nearly as high offensively while being the best defensive winger in the world. And has the singular best longevity in the sport's history.

Howe over Lemieux is a very easy choice.

Sure if your not realistic

 

[CanadienShark]

I always thought he made it a big 5, with him being #5. Now... I don't know. Honestly he could be anywhere from 2-4. He's a special player. I always knew he would be amazing dating back to juniors, but he's even exceeded the hype and his perceived ceiling as a player.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

He’s already 4th and will be at least 2nd by the end of his career

 

[Coffey]

None of the top 4 carried a Nurse and Ceci to the cup. So if he wins, he’s right below Gretzky.

 

[crowfish]

Mario says hi. Its gonna take more than 1 cup to pass him.

One cup and he is already ahead of Orr, Lemieux, and Howe?

It's not about Cup counting, it never has been. Otherwise, we would all agree that Beliveau
is the GOAT or that Messier > Gretzky.

IF (still a big if), McDavid and the Oilers complete this comeback, it is the greatest comeback in sports history. McDavids postseason run could already be considered the greatest performance in NHL playoff history. He has the most era-adjusted points ever and is just slightly behind Gretzky for era-adjusted pts/game. When you consider the competition that he is doing this against you can easily argue it is the best ever. None of the big 4 players did anything as legendary as this in the playoffs. McDavid's peak is close to Lemieux's already, adding the best comeback + the best individual playoff performance would be enough to put him ahead in my opinion. And if that is a hot take, it's only a matter of a few more seasons of major awards for McDavid before it would be consensus.

 

[Xspyrit]

I don't really get these "IF he does this, he'll be Top-10" comments. It's very obvious when watching McDavid that he is the most talented and impressive hockey player of all-time. He has already done things that even superstars can only dream about. Sure he's only 27 y/o so he will need longevity but IMO he has at least another 10 years of pure dominance. If he stays healthy he will easily break 2000 pts and end up 2nd behind Gretzky who will always have the advantage of having played in the most prolific era.

Just right now, he has 42 pts in these playoffs with 1 game to go. Only guys who did better in a playoff run were :

Wayne Gretzky in 1984-85 : 47 pts
Mario Lemieux in 1990-91 : 44 pts
Wayne Gretzky in 1987-88 : 43 pts

Lemieux in 1990-91 is actually the most impressive but McDavid's is right there

 

[JackSlater]

Howe peaked nearly as high offensively while being the best defensive winger in the world. And has the singular best longevity in the sport's history.

Howe over Lemieux is a very easy choice.

The best defensive winger in the NHL? I don't know about that based no anything I've read, even just on Detroit it seems like Pavelich definitely ranked higher. Better defensively than Gretzky/Lemieux/McDavid yes, and at a time when wingers had a lot more defensive responsibility than they do now.

I think McDavid muddies the water a lot but people will regard him (now or inevitably before long) among the five best players ever if Edmonton wins tomorrow. I don't really care about either team but it's interesting to see a game that has big historic implications for a player. It's not quite as big as the implications the last World Cup final had for Messi, but it is a big one. It's sort of like if Lemieux had to play in a game 7 in 1991, because people would not consider him really up there with Gretzky had he never played on a Stanley Cup winning team, fair or not.

 

[WingsFan95]

Unlike Maholmes in the NFL, McDavid truly is separating himself from the pack historically but the problem is how you put him up with d-men and goaltenders.

For skaters alone you can say right now he's Top 5, but add defensemen and goalies???

I mean, we look at Roy and Hasek, can we not agree with their careers they are certainly above McDavid right now and by quite a margin? Yes.

Then for defensemen not named Orr, I think it's ludicrous to understate the likes of Bourque and Lidstrom.

And then finally for forwards we're looking at Gretz, Mario and Howe but surely the soon to be all-time goals leader Ovechkin??

5 Art Ross
4 Pearsons
3 Harts
1 Smythe
0 Cups

And for any Lemieux comparisons let's acknowledge he's already played 645 games so pretty soon he'll have the compiler factor as opposed to actual comparison though it's getting close as Lemieux "only" had 1 more Ross and Smythe along with the 2 Cups.


But in a projection of say 8 Ross, 5 Harts and 3 Smythe with 2 Cups? Boy howdy......

I'm starting to believe he could be #1. Listen Gretz had a massively stacked team to work with and I refuse to ignore this. He made exactly 1 Final outside Edmonton and team lost in 5. I believe he only made 1 other Conference Final with the Rangers in 97 too.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I'm starting to believe he could be #1. Listen Gretz had a massively stacked team to work with and I refuse to ignore this. He made exactly 1 Final outside Edmonton and team lost in 5. I believe he only made 1 other Conference Final with the Rangers in 97 too.

This is always such a weird point.

In 1980-81, Gretzky set the all time points record with 164 at only 20 years of age. Next highest scoring Oiler was Kurri in 36th spot and 75 points. No other Oiler is in the top 50 in points.
In 1981-82, Gretzky set the all time goals, assists, and points record at 212. Next highest scoring Oiler was Glenn Anderson in 11th spot and 105 point. Gretzky outscored his closest teammate by 107 points.
In 1982-83, Gretzky scored 196 points. This is the first year the non-Gretzky Oilers are actually good. Messier had 106 points (7th place), Kurri had 104 points (10th place), and Coffey had 96 points (14th place). Greyzky outscored closest teammate by 91 points.
In 1983-84, Gretzky scored 205 points in only 74 games. Yet he still outscored Coffey (2nd place) by 79 points.
In 1984-85, Gretzky scored 208 points. He outscored Kurri (2nd place) by 73 points.
In 1985-86, Gretzky scored 215 points. He outscored Coffey (3rd place) by 77 points.
In 1986-87, Gretzky scored 183 points. He outscored Kurri (2nd) by 75 points.
In 1987-88, Gretzky scored 149 points (he missed 16 games). Despite missing all that time, he still outscored Messier (7th place) by 38 points.
Then he gets traded. So outside his rookie year and injury year, no Oiler ever got within 73 points of him in a single season.

He keeps it up in LA too.
In 1989-90, he scored 142 points in 73 games. He outscored Robitaille (12th) by 41 points.
In 1990-91, he scored 163 points. He outscored Robitaille (15th) by 72 points.
Then he breaks his back in 1991. You do still get some crazy spreads though.

In 1993-94, at age 33, he leads the league in points and outscored his closest teammate (Robitaille, 24th place) by 44 points.
In 1997-98, at age 37, he finishes 3rd in the league in points and 28 points ahead of his closest teammate (LaFontaine)

You can just look at Gretzky's record in SCF games.
1983: Oilers swept, Gretzky 4 GP 0 G 4 A 4 P - 3. Still leads the Oilers
1984: Oilers win in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 4 G 3 A 7 P + 3. Leads Oilers
1985: Oilers win in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 7 G 4 A 11 P + 4. Leads Oilers
1987: Oilers win in 7. Gretzky 7 GP 2 G 9 A 11 P + 5. Leads Oilers
1988: Oilers win in 4. Gretzky 4 GP 3 G 8 A 11 P + 4. Leads Oilers
1993: Kings lose in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 2 G 5 A 7 P +1. Leads Kings

So in 6 Cup Final appearances, Gretzky lead his team in points all 6 times and had a statline of.
30 GP 18 G 33 A 51 P +14

How are we criticizing Gretzky here?

Yes, the Oilers were outstanding 1984-1988, but Gretzky outplayed them all.

 

[wetcoast]

This is always such a weird point.

In 1980-81, Gretzky set the all time points record with 164 at only 20 years of age. Next highest scoring Oiler was Kurri in 36th spot and 75 points. No other Oiler is in the top 50 in points.
In 1981-82, Gretzky set the all time goals, assists, and points record at 212. Next highest scoring Oiler was Glenn Anderson in 11th spot and 105 point. Gretzky outscored his closest teammate by 107 points.
In 1982-83, Gretzky scored 196 points. This is the first year the non-Gretzky Oilers are actually good. Messier had 106 points (7th place), Kurri had 104 points (10th place), and Coffey had 96 points (14th place). Greyzky outscored closest teammate by 91 points.
In 1983-84, Gretzky scored 205 points in only 74 games. Yet he still outscored Coffey (2nd place) by 79 points.
In 1984-85, Gretzky scored 208 points. He outscored Kurri (2nd place) by 73 points.
In 1985-86, Gretzky scored 215 points. He outscored Coffey (3rd place) by 77 points.
In 1986-87, Gretzky scored 183 points. He outscored Kurri (2nd) by 75 points.
In 1987-88, Gretzky scored 149 points (he missed 16 games). Despite missing all that time, he still outscored Messier (7th place) by 38 points.
Then he gets traded. So outside his rookie year and injury year, no Oiler ever got within 73 points of him in a single season.

He keeps it up in LA too.
In 1989-90, he scored 142 points in 73 games. He outscored Robitaille (12th) by 41 points.
In 1990-91, he scored 163 points. He outscored Robitaille (15th) by 72 points.
Then he breaks his back in 1991. You do still get some crazy spreads though.

In 1993-94, at age 33, he leads the league in points and outscored his closest teammate (Robitaille, 24th place) by 44 points.
In 1997-98, at age 37, he finishes 3rd in the league in points and 28 points ahead of his closest teammate (LaFontaine)

You can just look at Gretzky's record in SCF games.
1983: Oilers swept, Gretzky 4 GP 0 G 4 A 4 P - 3. Still leads the Oilers
1984: Oilers win in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 4 G 3 A 7 P + 3. Leads Oilers
1985: Oilers win in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 7 G 4 A 11 P + 4. Leads Oilers
1987: Oilers win in 7. Gretzky 7 GP 2 G 9 A 11 P + 5. Leads Oilers
1988: Oilers win in 4. Gretzky 4 GP 3 G 8 A 11 P + 4. Leads Oilers
1993: Kings lose in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 2 G 5 A 7 P +1. Leads Kings

So in 6 Cup Final appearances, Gretzky lead his team in points all 6 times and had a statline of.
30 GP 18 G 33 A 51 P +14

How are we criticizing Gretzky here?

Yes, the Oilers were outstanding 1984-1988, but Gretzky outplayed them all.

It almost goes without saying that gretzky just will never be caught as #1.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

I think he'll be 5th when its all said and done.

 

[bobholly39]

It almost goes without saying that gretzky just will never be caught as #1.

Never say never

 

[GMR]

Wake me up when he passes Jonathan Toews in “intangibles”

 

[jigglysquishy]

Never say never

I 100% Gretzky to be overtaken as the consensus #1 in my lifetime. With ~50 more years of NHL to watch, someone will do it.

Realistically, I expect that person to start that conversation in their 18 year old year. Someone that comes in, wins a Hart as a rookie, and just moves to a higher level. We've seen some monster rookie seasons since Gretzky (Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid). I think the guy that overtakes Gretzky will be best-in-the-world good his rookie year.

 

[Regal]

I 100% Gretzky to be overtaken as the consensus #1 in my lifetime. With ~50 more years of NHL to watch, someone will do it.

Realistically, I expect that person to start that conversation in their 18 year old year. Someone that comes in, wins a Hart as a rookie, and just moves to a higher level. We've seen some monster rookie seasons since Gretzky (Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid). I think the guy that overtakes Gretzky will be best-in-the-world good his rookie year.

Part of me feels like once leagues become as technical and equipment and training becomes as big of a business as it has it’s not possible to stand out in quite the same way anymore, but at the same time, there’s a lot of recent things with McDavid and others that I didn’t think were possible anymore either.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Part of me feels like once leagues become as technical and equipment and training becomes as big of a business as it has it’s not possible to stand out in quite the same way anymore, but at the same time, there’s a lot of recent things with McDavid and others that I didn’t think were possible anymore either.

If anything, I think McDavid has shown that a Gretzky-esque talent is still possible.

If his wingspan was 2-3 inches wider and he had a Draisaitl/Matthews tier shot he would be putting up 15-20 more points a year. It sounds like a lot, but we just saw him score 64 goals with his shot being a noted weakness in his game.

 

[Regal]

If anything, I think McDavid has shown that a Gretzky-esque talent is still possible.

If his wingspan was 2-3 inches wider and he had a Draisaitl/Matthews tier shot he would be putting up 15-20 more points a year. It sounds like a lot, but we just saw him score 64 goals with his shot being a noted weakness in his game.

That’s probably fair. A McDavid/Ovechkin hybrid maybe. I always think he’s bigger because for some reason he looks like he’s 6’3 out there. Though I wouldn’t say his shot was a weakness last year. Whatever his abdominal injury is seems to have affected it this year but he had a wicked shot last year from anywhere in the slot. He doesn’t have the shot from distance of those others though. But then does that take away from the assists?

 

[Bizz]

1. Gretzky
2. Joe Thornton
3. Orr
4. Lemieux
5. Howe

so somewhere in the 6-10 range.

 

[Iggys Dome]

If he stays healthy and ages well I could see him being #2 or 3.

 

[WingsFan95]

This is always such a weird point.

In 1980-81, Gretzky set the all time points record with 164 at only 20 years of age. Next highest scoring Oiler was Kurri in 36th spot and 75 points. No other Oiler is in the top 50 in points.
In 1981-82, Gretzky set the all time goals, assists, and points record at 212. Next highest scoring Oiler was Glenn Anderson in 11th spot and 105 point. Gretzky outscored his closest teammate by 107 points.
In 1982-83, Gretzky scored 196 points. This is the first year the non-Gretzky Oilers are actually good. Messier had 106 points (7th place), Kurri had 104 points (10th place), and Coffey had 96 points (14th place). Greyzky outscored closest teammate by 91 points.
In 1983-84, Gretzky scored 205 points in only 74 games. Yet he still outscored Coffey (2nd place) by 79 points.
In 1984-85, Gretzky scored 208 points. He outscored Kurri (2nd place) by 73 points.
In 1985-86, Gretzky scored 215 points. He outscored Coffey (3rd place) by 77 points.
In 1986-87, Gretzky scored 183 points. He outscored Kurri (2nd) by 75 points.
In 1987-88, Gretzky scored 149 points (he missed 16 games). Despite missing all that time, he still outscored Messier (7th place) by 38 points.
Then he gets traded. So outside his rookie year and injury year, no Oiler ever got within 73 points of him in a single season.

He keeps it up in LA too.
In 1989-90, he scored 142 points in 73 games. He outscored Robitaille (12th) by 41 points.
In 1990-91, he scored 163 points. He outscored Robitaille (15th) by 72 points.
Then he breaks his back in 1991. You do still get some crazy spreads though.

In 1993-94, at age 33, he leads the league in points and outscored his closest teammate (Robitaille, 24th place) by 44 points.
In 1997-98, at age 37, he finishes 3rd in the league in points and 28 points ahead of his closest teammate (LaFontaine)

You can just look at Gretzky's record in SCF games.
1983: Oilers swept, Gretzky 4 GP 0 G 4 A 4 P - 3. Still leads the Oilers
1984: Oilers win in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 4 G 3 A 7 P + 3. Leads Oilers
1985: Oilers win in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 7 G 4 A 11 P + 4. Leads Oilers
1987: Oilers win in 7. Gretzky 7 GP 2 G 9 A 11 P + 5. Leads Oilers
1988: Oilers win in 4. Gretzky 4 GP 3 G 8 A 11 P + 4. Leads Oilers
1993: Kings lose in 5. Gretzky 5 GP 2 G 5 A 7 P +1. Leads Kings

So in 6 Cup Final appearances, Gretzky lead his team in points all 6 times and had a statline of.
30 GP 18 G 33 A 51 P +14

How are we criticizing Gretzky here?

Yes, the Oilers were outstanding 1984-1988, but Gretzky outplayed them all.

And this was very much the case for Jordan, but we don't sit here and pretend those Bulls teams weren't great behind him. It's actually rarer for loaded teams NOT to have a superstar leader. And we'll absolutely leave NFL out of it and only look at NBA and NHL.

I guess the other way of looking at it is with Mario where despite his shortened career we do look back and ask why he didn't win more and it's absolutely because of his teams where he in no way was a lesser player than Gretzky, it was clear he had lesser teams.

I 100% Gretzky to be overtaken as the consensus #1 in my lifetime. With ~50 more years of NHL to watch, someone will do it.

Realistically, I expect that person to start that conversation in their 18 year old year. Someone that comes in, wins a Hart as a rookie, and just moves to a higher level. We've seen some monster rookie seasons since Gretzky (Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid). I think the guy that overtakes Gretzky will be best-in-the-world good his rookie year.

Part of me feels like once leagues become as technical and equipment and training becomes as big of a business as it has it’s not possible to stand out in quite the same way anymore, but at the same time, there’s a lot of recent things with McDavid and others that I didn’t think were possible anymore either.

Tend to side with Regal here. The deeper the talent pool, the more saturated the market and salary caps diluting teams, the much harder it becomes for older legends to be overtaken in any meaningful capacity.

Frankly put, it's virtually impossible for any defenseman to even sniff Orr. Moving forward with players being protected/reserved it's virtually impossible to touch Roy, Hasek or Brodeur. And then finally with forward, as great as McDavid is and obviously the center of the universe in Edmonton he's just never going to have a recognition of a Gretzky.

I think boxing and movies are a great reference point for transcending legacy in the modern world. Titanic came out in 1997, Terminator 2 came out in 1991, Godfather 1972, Citizen Kane in 1941. As much as I like some recent films like Interstellar, Wolf of Wallstreet, etc I can already see them fading more than the aforementioned. Moving to boxing Muhammad Ali was last the Heavyweight Champ in 1978 and Mike Tyson went to prison in 1991. I loved the Klitschkos and Lennox Lewis is underrated but boxing legacy the last 30 years is nowhere near the 80s. Joe Louis first won the title nearly a century ago.

Need I go on?

Man guys like Howe and Orr truly are timeless figures.