Where have all the GOATenders gone?

[1989]

The Gretzkys and Lemiuexs left but we got Crosby and Malkin and Ovechkin and McDavid, etc.

The Prongers and Lidstroms retired but we got Fox, Makar, Josi, Hedman, Hughes, etc.

The Haseks, Roys, Prices, Brodeurs, Lundqvists have all gone now just recently.

Goalies, even true #1s, play fewer games so they're less tired, they have more coaching and development opportunities. But where is the next wave of true greats?

Disregarding the fact future goalies won't even have a chance of sniffing the wins or games played records anymore due to evolutions in team deployment, when will we see the next true GOATender be in regular contention for Hart/Lindsey/Conn Smythe/Vezina trophies?

Click to read more...

 

[CanadienShark]

Shesterkin? Hellebuyck? Demko? Sorokin? Swayman? Playoff Bobrovsky? Saros?

As for prospects, Wallstedt, Askarov, Levi, etc?

 

[The Gr8 Dane]

Maybe when 5'10 shrimps stop shooting lazer beams and regular season games aren't a powerplay fiesta they will be back , they also nerfed their equipment not sure what you want from these goalies. There's plenty of great ones in the league right now its just not a goalie friendly league

 

[Evergreen]

I’d say Vasilevskiy, Hellebuyck, Shesterkin, Bobrovsky, and maybe Sorokin or Swayman—depending on the seasons they have—are a pretty good group.

 

[Gaylord Q Tinkledink]

Shesterkin is pretty damn good.

Sorokin is also good.

It's Russia's turn to develop the top tier goalies with the states second.

Part of the lack of goalies is that Canada isn't producing any goalies of any note.

Gabriel D'aigle was a candidate to be the next one, but he sucks.

Ravensbergen might be one, but he's a right handed goalie and those are ick.

 

[CupsOverCash]

Vasi in his 2 cups runs was awesome. Doesn't get enough love for those runs.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Quebec stopped developing goalies is what happened.

 

[Letsdothis]

Everyone got so good that nobody stands out. Also the shots today happen at such a high velocity today that there's physically no time to make reaction saves, making variance (luck) a higher component in sv%.

 

[1989]

Shesterkin? Hellebuyck? Demko? Sorokin? Swayman? Playoff Bobrovsky? Saros?

As for prospects, Wallstedt, Askarov, Levi, etc?

You listed four Vezina winners (Hellebuyck won twice so four trophies total) out of 7 professionals, and none with Hart/Lindsey/Smythe considerations although Bobrovsky was in the conversation against a record-setting McDavid.

Vasilevskiy, Price Quick were probably the last most recent challengers but in the end fell short of all-time greatness.

I'm talking goalies who dominate the crease and carry seasons on their backs, not one-time flashes in the pan. Goalies that make bad teams look like playoff qualifiers and playoff contenders into champions.

You can tell me my standards are too high but the greats of yesteryear were able to achieve such lofty heights with worse equipment, less coaching, and heavier workloads and oftentimes, crappier teams. I consider the current class to be very good but not in the conversation of truly great.

 

[Demon Eyes]

Why be a goalie for less pay

 

[amnesiac]

I wrote a topic on this months ago..... Is the "longterm elite goaltender" now a thing of the past?

to me the position has become more and more normalized over time. Coaching systems and defenses now play just as much a role in their team's goals against as the goalies do. Thats my theory anyway.

Goalies seem peak just as their team does, and will look bad after just a simple coaching change or trade to less defensive team.

Tons of examples of this in the past 20 years under coaches such as: Lemaire, Hitchcock, Trotz, Montgomery etc

 

[bellringer77]

I am going out on a limb here especially because I was vocal about trading up and not grabbing a center instead of Cossa , but he’s been developing very nicely and looked very solid in a shutout last night. He might be the piece that really helps Detroit out because their lack of talent this far into the rebuild is obvious

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

So you're wondering why every era doesn't have 3 of the 5 best goaltenders of all time in it?...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Some of this is due to a weird age cutoff with the current conversation. Lundqvist and Price are the same age range as Ovechkin and Crosby.

Some eras just have low quality output i.e. late 70s born for defensemen. It's randomness of the quality of 5 individuals out of tens of thousands of input players. How weak would we view 1970s era NHL goalies if Dryden doesn't play hockey? Or how weak would the 2010-2015 era be viewed if Crosby and Ovechkin didn't play hockey?

Equipment costs are a very real problem. How many potentially elite goalies picked a different position because their parents didn't want that cost?

Traditional goaltending streams have dried up. Ontario was a goalie factory until the 1980s. Quebec was a goalie factory until the 2010s. Regions often rely on a few trainers to usher in elite goalies. One trainer falls off and isn't replaced and whole regions go away.

Award voters are stat watchers and it's especially bad for goalies. If Vezinas weren't so strongly correlated to SV% (a heavily team influenced stat) you might see guys like Lundqvist or Vasilevsky or Hellebucyk win more frequently. Their legacies "feel " smaller because they lose out to goalies playing behind elite defensive systems.

 

[DingDongCharlie]

They all became Russians. No nation is even close at the moment. It’s unfortunate and I can’t say I understand why

 

[CanadienShark]

You listed four Vezina winners (Hellebuyck won twice so four trophies total) out of 7 professionals, and none with Hart/Lindsey/Smythe considerations although Bobrovsky was in the conversation against a record-setting McDavid.

Vasilevskiy, Price Quick were probably the last most recent challengers but in the end fell short of all-time greatness.

I'm talking goalies who dominate the crease and carry seasons on their backs, not one-time flashes in the pan. Goalies that make bad teams look like playoff qualifiers and playoff contenders into champions.

You can tell me my standards are too high but the greats of yesteryear were able to achieve such lofty heights with worse equipment, less coaching, and heavier workloads and oftentimes, crappier teams. I consider the current class to be very good but not in the conversation of truly great.

Your comparisons were guys like Fox and Hughes... Those guys aren't in the Hart category either.

 

[Next Best Thing]

Quebec stopped developing goalies is what happened.

Might have done it again with Sammy. But really we literally JUST gave you guys Price. So demanding...

 

[nbwingsfan]

The Gretzkys and Lemiuexs left but we got Crosby and Malkin and Ovechkin and McDavid, etc.

The Prongers and Lidstroms retired but we got Fox, Makar, Josi, Hedman, Hughes, etc.

The Haseks, Roys, Prices, Brodeurs, Lundqvists have all gone now just recently.

Goalies, even true #1s, play fewer games so they're less tired, they have more coaching and development opportunities. But where is the next wave of true greats?

Disregarding the fact future goalies won't even have a chance of sniffing the wins or games played records anymore due to evolutions in team deployment, when will we see the next true GOATender be in regular contention for Hart/Lindsey/Conn Smythe/Vezina trophies?

Hellebucyk has more Vezinas than both Price (who’s one of the most overrated goalies of all time) and Lundqvist…

 

[Devilsfan2326]

Everyone got so good that nobody stands out. Also the shots today happen at such a high velocity today that there's physically no time to make reaction saves, making variance (luck) a higher component in sv%.

You said it. Reactive goalies were pretty entertaining. There's always been an element of prediction that's harder to see, but I really enjoyed seeing a goalie scramble all game and come out with a shutout. Somehow they were also able to play more games despite the more reactive style.

 

[winnipegger]

After suffering sudden onset blindness for 5 games last April, Hellebuyck has opened the season through two games with a .982 which is pretty good.

 

[Leksand]

Just listened to Kevin Woolley on the PDO cast. He said that since Shesterkin came into the league his cumulative stats are quite a bit better than anyone else. Don’t know what to make of that exactly but thought it’s interesting given how random and inconsistent goaltending seems to be in recent years.

Generally, it seems really hard to determine how good a goalie is. The history of hockey is just now voting on the eight best goalies all time and three overlap during the O6 era and three overlap during the dead puck era and two peaked in the 70s behind historically great teams. I am no expert at all and believe the history guys are serious, honest (they pointed out pretty much what I said in the past sentence) and very, very good (as seen in the intervention above by squiggly wiggly (?) an active history discussant) I’m in no way questioning their general rankings But as context for this discussion here it is interesting to see the historic bundling of talent and seems a bit unlikely to be the true distribution).

 

[NeelyWasAWarrior]

Everyone got so good that nobody stands out. Also the shots today happen at such a high velocity today that there's physically no time to make reaction saves, making variance (luck) a higher component in sv%.

This is the answer to the thread.

Also the butterfly, better training, bigger and lighter equipment helped commoditized the goalie position closing the gap between the best and mid tier goalies making the position less reflexive and more of a blocking position.

Better defensive systems have evolved and act as the prevailing mechanism to counter these prime area, high velocity shots and are better than before at limiting them to bad angles or keeping them at a distance.

I'll also add that there's less fear being a goalie now. I'm not trying to marginalize today's goalies but before when there was less padding, thinned out goalies still had to face guys like Al Macinnis and Al Iafrate and Brett Hull and there was more inherent fear in that position. I do believe these bigger pads have sort of welcomed in people who might not otherwise played adding to the talent pool.

in short, as was stated In the quoted post, it's harder to stand out.

 

[Romang67]

After suffering sudden onset blindness for 5 games last April, Hellebuyck has opened the season through two games with a .982 which is pretty good.

He has finished 1st, 2nd, 8th, 4th and 1st in GSAx the last 5 seasons, for a total GSAx of around 120. He also has two Vezina wins in those 5 years. I think he's pretty good.

Shame about his recent playoff performances though.

 

[Voight]

He has finished 1st, 2nd, 8th, 4th and 1st in GSAx the last 5 seasons, for a total GSAx of around 120. He also has two Vezina wins in those 5 years. I think he's pretty good.

Shame about his recent playoff performances though.

He'd probably get a lot more hype if he played for a popular team like Toronto or Boston.

 

[jetsforever]