Where does Kucherov rank all time for wingers?

[Golden_Jet]

How do you figure Ovechkin peaked higher than Kucherov in the playoffs? Tampa went on an 11 series playoff winning streak with Kucherov putting 30+ points in 2x of the three years, 27 points being the lowest total, coincidentally Ovechkin's high. He also did all that stuff way earlier in his career and could conceivably blow Ovechkin's playoff totals out of the water even more.

Kucherov's peak offense in the regular season blows Ovechkin's out of the water. He has double the Art Ross trophies to Ovechkin at 2 to 1.

OV’s trophy case is much bigger.

 

[Stephen]

OV’s trophy case is much bigger.

It's really just the repeat Rockets that skew award totals. There's no award for hitting 100 assists, for example.

 

[Golden_Jet]

It's really just the repeat Rockets that skew award totals. There's no award for hitting 100 assists, for example.

Not it’s not.

2 more Harts
2 more Ted Lindseys
Conn Smythe
Calder
And yes, the 9 Rocket trophies
8 first team all star vs 3
Kuch with one more Art Ross

Ya it’s not close.

 

[Randyne]

It's really just the repeat Rockets that skew award totals. There's no award for hitting 100 assists, for example.

2 rosses+2 harts+rocket robbed from Ovi that's skew award totals. If he was a Canadian his hardware would be second only to Gretzky.

 

[x Tame Impala]

It's really just the repeat Rockets that skew award totals. There's no award for hitting 100 assists, for example.

“It’s really just the record breaking 9 TIMES he scored the most goals in the league” lol

 

[daver]

Kane was better over a longer span of time. He's the leading point better in the NHL from 2010-2019

You should have done some research before posting your cherrypicking stat.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

But congrats on being healthier. Noone would say that he was better than Crosby. Malkin also had a higher PPG and Ovechkin dwarfed him in goals; both of whom were well into their 30s during that time. He was #6 in plus/minus on his team (Crosby was #1 on the Pens).

Kane is, at best, the 4th best player during the post lockout era before the next crop took over (McDavid, Kucherov, Mac, Matthews, Draisaitl).

Here is the ten year equivalent for Kucherov:

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

#2 in points and #2 in PPG. He was #2 on his team in plus/minus.

 

[daver]

Kucherov also struggled to place strong in the Art Ross race during Tampa's window. When Kucherov wins an Art Ross the Lightning have flamed out early in the playoffs and don't look good.

So the 128 point version of the Bolts (the 5th highest point total in NHL history), a team that had a SCF appearance and two CF appearances in the preceding four seasons and would go to reach the SCF for the next three seasons, were not in their Cup window in 18/19?

It is pretty well accepted by objective observers that Kucherov took his foot off the gas in 17/18 after getting close to the end of the regular season. He was the Art Ross leader until Game 75. His team reached the ECF that year.

So this does absolutely nothing to show that Kucherov benefitted from having a superior team. You are doing something special when you outscore your linemates by 60%.

 

[Felidae]

Kucherov's peak season is up there with the best wingers of all time. It's pretty close to peak Jagr and Ovi.

What hurts Kucherov in an all time sense though is that he didn't really blossom until the age of 23 and he also missed an entire year right in the middle of his prime.

Compared to other all time great wingers

Ovechkin before age 23 already had a Hart, Pearson, Art Ross and richard (Nearly half his trophy case excluding the Richards) and also one of the greatest rookie seasons of all time that had him finish 3rd in goals and 5th in points.

Bobby Hull before age 23 had 2 scoring title and was a hart finalist the same amount of times(also led the league in goals twice)

Even Jagr before 23 had an Art Ross and a 9th place scoring finish.

And all these guys have insane longevity and have never missed an entire year while in their prime years.

Kucherov's slow start in addition to not having the consecutive dominance like these 3 (he probably needed 1 or 2 more seasons like 2018-19 to at least have a case) makes it nearly impossible he'll surpass any of these guys.

I mean, it could still happen, but him winning multiple major awards in seperate years after 30 would put him in very rarified territory. Lemieux and Gretzky "only" won 2 major awards in different years after 30.

Or he'd have to continue being a top 5 scorer for 3-4 seasons. Once again, something only Howe and Gretzky have done.

I wouldn't bet on either scenario.

 

[daver]

How did he peak higher than Kane? Both of their peaks are winning the Art Ross.

So Jamie Benn's peak equals Mario's peak?

 

[daver]

Except Kane peaked higher, he actually won a Conn Smythe on a team with plenty of competition for the trophy. Kane is arguably the best playoff performer of a generation, and the timing of his hat tricks and game winning goals in the playoffs were unreal, and the competition it was against makes it all that much more impressive.

Are you arguing that Kane's 19 point 2013 performance is superior to Kucherov's 32 point 2021 playoff performance?

 

[daver]

Kucherov's peak season is up there with the best wingers of all time. It's pretty close to peak Jagr and Ovi.

What hurts Kucherov in an all time sense though is that he didn't really blossom until the age of 23 and he also missed an entire year right in the middle of his prime.

Compared to other all time great wingers

Ovechkin before age 23 already had a Hart, Pearson, Art Ross and richard (Nearly half his trophy case excluding the Richards) and also one of the greatest rookie seasons of all time that had him finish 3rd in goals and 5th in points.

Bobby Hull before age 23 had 2 scoring title and was a hart finalist the same amount of times(also led the league in goals twice)

Even Jagr before 23 had an Art Ross and a 9th place scoring finish.

And all these guys have insane longevity and have never missed an entire year in the middle of their prime.

Kucherov's slow start in addition to not having the consecutive dominance like these 3 (he probably needed 1 or 2 more seasons like 2018-19 to at least have a case) makes it nearly impossible he'll surpass any of these guys.

I mean, it could still happen, but him winning multiple major awards in seperate years after 30 would put him in very rarified territory. Lemieux and Gretzky "only" won 2 major awards in different years after 30.

Or he'd have to continue being a top 5 scorer for 3-4 seasons. Once again, something only Howe and Gretzky have done.

I wouldn't bet on either scenario.

There is a bit of a "Secondary PP assist accumulator" and "elite team/linemates" air to his regular season and playoff numbers before last season which was likely reflected in his Conn Smythe consideration in '20 and '21.

Last season he lead the league in ES points and was 60% clear of the 2nd place scorer on his team so perhaps he put that narrative to bed.

I still think he is a rich man's Kane rather than a poor man's Ovechkin or Jagr.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

So Jamie Benn's peak equals Mario's peak?

Jamie Benn did an award sweep? News to me. I was under the impression he just got an Art Ross in his best year, while Mario led in points, assists, and goals by margins we have never seen outside of Gretzky while capturing the MVP award.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Are you arguing that Kane's 19 point 2013 performance is superior to Kucherov's 32 point 2021 playoff performance?

Not only am I arguing that Kane had a better postseason campaign in 2013 when he captured the Conn Smythe, but I believe his 2015 was better as well. When you take the Chicago cup window of 2010-2015 and compare it to the bolts 2019-2024, Kane's playoff resume looks much better than Kucherov's, with the Conn Smythe and 11 game winning goals all in a lower scoring environment.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

So the 128 point version of the Bolts (the 5th highest point total in NHL history), a team that had a SCF appearance and two CF appearances in the preceding four seasons and would go to reach the SCF for the next three seasons, were not in their Cup window in 18/19?

I never said that? I just said that when Kucherov captured the Art Ross in 2019, they got swept in the 1st round. Is that an impressive performance? One could argue that Kucherov pressing so much in his Art Ross years leads to poor playoff performances, and its much easier for him to play well in the playoffs when he sits out for the whole season and ramps up right before.

 

[x Tame Impala]

So you arguing that you put a 30 year old Kane on the 2023/24 Bolts and he puts up more than 144 points?

No I'm arguing that Artemi Panarin, who Kane is better than, put up 120 points last season. Clearly scoring is up drastically from when Kane was in his prime. If he were playing now, yes I'd reasonably expect him to be putting up 120+ points seasons often. Maybe he would've scored 144+ points in Kucherov's situation, maybe not. Kucherov had a fantastic year and I don't see the value in using a hypothetical in this way. There's no denying Kucherov's incredible year.

Their numbers, with context, should dictate who is rated higher. Anyone arguing that 144 >>> 106 points is not to be taken seriously. As is anyone arguing that a peak Kane would have beaten Kucherov's 30 year old season (they would be close IMO) is also not to be taken seriously.

Are you arguing that Kane's 19 point 2013 performance is superior to Kucherov's 32 point 2021 playoff performance?

You're the one not using context here. I'd be curious to see how Kucherov would've done playing against the 2013 Kings and 2013 Bruins, when league scoring was 13% lower than last year. You're the one just pulling up stats. I've watched Kane his entire career and Kucherov for most of his playoff career, my eye test says I'm taking Kane.

 

[Sky04]

OV captained his team to the cup and won the conn smythe in the process. Kucherov did not win a Conn Smythe. 2018 OV campaign looks better on the resume to me personally than any postseason Kucherov put together.

OV has done an award sweep a couple of times. Kucherov has never came close to the peak dominance of OV. Not sure why you would even try to argue that point, and if Kucherov's compilation trophy case somehow seems more impressive to you than OV's, than there is no reasoning with you.

Ovy is a one hit wonder in the playoffs, a career 2nd round exiter who just compliles off easy 1st round matchups, try again. He's captained his team is a massively underwhelming playoff resume for a stacked team, no doubt because their "best player" was completely one-dimensional.

 

[daver]

You're the one not using context here. I'd be curious to see how Kucherov would've done playing against the 2013 Kings and 2013 Bruins, when league scoring was 13% lower than last year. You're the one just pulling up stats. I've watched Kane his entire career and Kucherov for most of his playoff career, my eye test says I'm taking Kane.

Ok, so reduce Kucherov's point total by 13% and its now 28 points. Fair enough?

Or you can just say "that despite what the number say, I like Kane better" rather than trying to argue that the numbers favour Kane when they don't with unreasonable narratives.

These "look better" arguments start to ring hallow when they are not backed up statistically.

Ovy is a one hit wonder in the playoffs, a career 2nd round exiter who just compliles off easy 1st round matchups, try again. He's captained his team is a massively underwhelming playoff resume for a stacked team, no doubt because their "best player" was completely one-dimensional.

I don't think you are going to win a "stacked team" argument. The Bolts challenge the 2008 Wings for most talented Cup winner since the lockout.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovy is a one hit wonder in the playoffs, a career 2nd round exiter who just compliles off easy 1st round matchups, try again. He's captained his team is a massively underwhelming playoff resume for a stacked team, no doubt because their "best player" was completely one-dimensional.

Ovechkin is a very physical player, in addition to being top 10 in assists during his generation, in addition to being the greatest goal scorer in hockey history. Which of those 3 dimensions is the 1 dimension?

The Capitals have never had another top 200 player of all-time during Ovechkin's career (is Nick Backstrom top 300?).

They were indeed stacked from about 2016 to 2017. Aside from that they were a flawed team.

 

[Sky04]

Ovechkin is a very physical player, in addition to being top 10 in assists during his generation, in addition to being the greatest goal scorer in hockey history. Which of those 3 dimensions is the 1 dimension?

The Capitals have never had another top 200 player of all-time during Ovechkin's career (is Nick Backstrom top 300?).

They were indeed stacked from about 2016 to 2017. Aside from that they were a flawed team.

They're only talked about as "flawed" because they continously underachieve, you're talking like they were bubble teams who barely made the playoffs. They were a top team year in and out and got bounced in round 2 or earlier in just about every single year, that's on a bad core and bad leadership.

 

[DFC]

Kucherov's peak season is up there with the best wingers of all time. It's pretty close to peak Jagr and Ovi.

What hurts Kucherov in an all time sense though is that he didn't really blossom until the age of 23 and he also missed an entire year right in the middle of his prime.

Compared to other all time great wingers

Ovechkin before age 23 already had a Hart, Pearson, Art Ross and richard (Nearly half his trophy case excluding the Richards) and also one of the greatest rookie seasons of all time that had him finish 3rd in goals and 5th in points.

Bobby Hull before age 23 had 2 scoring title and was a hart finalist the same amount of times(also led the league in goals twice)

Even Jagr before 23 had an Art Ross and a 9th place scoring finish.

And all these guys have insane longevity and have never missed an entire year while in their prime years.

Kucherov's slow start in addition to not having the consecutive dominance like these 3 (he probably needed 1 or 2 more seasons like 2018-19 to at least have a case) makes it nearly impossible he'll surpass any of these guys.

I mean, it could still happen, but him winning multiple major awards in seperate years after 30 would put him in very rarified territory. Lemieux and Gretzky "only" won 2 major awards in different years after 30.

Or he'd have to continue being a top 5 scorer for 3-4 seasons. Once again, something only Howe and Gretzky have done.

I wouldn't bet on either scenario.

Kucherov was a bit of a late bloomer. I think there's a good argument to be made that he is still improving. Or at least that he improved until now. Obviously, improving on last season would be a long shot.

 

[Midnight Judges]

They're only talked about as "flawed" because they continously underachieve ….

Well no, that’s false.

They were flawed because they never had a good blue line until Orpik and Niskanen came over in 2015 and they never had center or wing depth until Kuznetsov emerged in 2016 and the Oshie trade. They also had poor coaching outside of Barry Trotz - which is evident in the fact that Adam Oates and Dale Hunter and Todd Rierdan have not had head coaching jobs outside the Caps and Boudreau suffered a lack of playoff success everywhere else as well.

 

[x Tame Impala]

Ok, so reduce Kucherov's point total by 13% and its now 28 points. Fair enough?

Or you can just say "that despite what the number say, I like Kane better" rather than trying to argue that the numbers favour Kane when they don't with unreasonable narratives.

These "look better" arguments start to ring hallow when they are not backed up statistically.

Despite what the numbers say I DO like Kane better. There's paragraphs of context here. I watched the games for both of these guys, I don't need anyone to agree with me to feel that I'm right.

Kane had tougher competition in a lower scoring league and he made a HoF career out of coming up big in ways Kucherov hasn't.

 

[Felidae]

There is a bit of a "Secondary PP assist accumulator" and "elite team/linemates" air to his regular season and playoff numbers before last season which was likely reflected in his Conn Smythe consideration in '20 and '21.

Last season he lead the league in ES points and was 60% clear of the 2nd place scorer on his team so perhaps he put that narrative to bed.

I still think he is a rich man's Kane rather than a poor man's Ovechkin or Jagr.

Generally, the best point producers tend to also be the highest secondary assist accumulators, so I don't put much stock into that.

As far as elite linemates go, yeah no denying throughout his career he's been in a more ideal situation than most. But he has also handedly outproduced his teammates beyond just this year.

Here's his gap over the 2nd best scorer on his team throughout the years.

2016-17.
13 more points than 2nd best, 32 more points than 3rd best.

2017-18
14 more points than 2nd best, 34 more points than 3rd.

2018-19
30 more points than 2nd best

2019-20
19 more points than 2nd best

2022-23
18 more points than 2nd best


Obviously a far cry from the 54 point gap he had over his teammates this year, but I think at this point Kucherov deserves the benefit of the doubt. He's been the straw that stirs the drink for a while now, and the only time he's been outproduced since 2016 was when he was injured.


But I actually do agree with your description of a rich man's Kane.. though to me that's the same different to a poor man's Ovi/Jagr. Even just 1 more art Ross Trophy (as I said in previous post, unlikely) and he's in Lafleur territory, who is also not that far apart from Jagr and Ovi.

 

[boredmale]

#2 behind Kip

 

[KevinFinnerty]

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