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Where does Dale Hawerchuk rank all time?

YippieKaey

How you gonna do hockey like that?
Apr 2, 2012
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So i feel like he is a little bit underrated, 13th all time in .ppg and a couple of consecutive 100+ point season for a pretty poor Winnipeg team followed by a number of good seasons for a Sabres team that weren´t exactly super badass either. Where would you put him?

And yes, this is a "im bored at work during the offseason thread".
 
He ranks too low in virtually every poll. And yes, it was because his best years were largely unseen by most hockey people. Playing in Winnipeg, a mostly non-playoff team, back in the 1980's, few hockey pundits outside of Manitoba saw him in his prime on a regular basis. But he was special. Very special. He made stars out of average players, and was regularly among the best players of the highly talented 1980's.

During this forum's recent Top 120 Players of All Time project, I had him listed at no. 86 of all time. I'm happy to say that a couple of participants in that project had him rated even higher.
 
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DannyGallivan said:
During this forum's recent Top 120 Players of All Time project, I had him listed at no. 86 of all time. I'm happy to say that a couple of participants in that project had him rated even higher.
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Yeah 86 all time seems about right. Am i mistaken in believing he had a bit of an edge aswell?
 
DannyGallivan said:
He ranks too low in virtually every poll. And yes, it was because his best years were largely unseen by most hockey people. Playing in Winnipeg, a mostly non-playoff team, back in the 1980's, few hockey pundits outside of Manitoba saw him in his prime on a regular basis. But he was special. Very special. He made stars out of average players, and was regularly among the best players of the highly talented 1980's.

During this forum's recent Top 120 Players of All Time project, I had him listed at no. 86 of all time. I'm happy to say that a couple of participants in that project had him rated even higher.
Click to expand...

It is due to forums like this that I appreciate him more now then I would have previously.
 
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One of those guys who feels “underrated” because he’s directly adjacent to a few 1,000 pound gorillas of hockey history, but is realistically behind a whole slew of guys who are less famous than him because he played in an era where stars really produced across the board. I think there was a point in the 90s where it was easy to forget he wasn’t always just another first liner on the Sabres, but that doesn’t have any bearing on how he might stack up with say, Sid Abel.
 
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80s offensive stars all have huge numbers, but they're kind of just... in the crowd. I don't think he's top 100 really. I kind of agree with TDMM that 150 is probably a good spot - same as a second-tier "star" level player in any generation. Like a slightly better Patrick Marleau-type?
 
Dale was...
  • Never top 5 in goals (only thrice top 10)
  • Never top 3 in assists (thrice top 5, twice more top 10)
  • Never made it to conference finals (best scoring came in two first round wins)
Yet he is in the HHOF. He is appreciated enough.
 
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The Macho Man said:
80s offensive stars all have huge numbers, but they're kind of just... in the crowd. I don't think he's top 100 really. I kind of agree with TDMM that 150 is probably a good spot - same as a second-tier "star" level player in any generation. Like a slightly better Patrick Marleau-type?
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Let's not go crazy; he was a lot better than Patrick Marleau.
 
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The Macho Man said:
80s offensive stars all have huge numbers, but they're kind of just... in the crowd. I don't think he's top 100 really. I kind of agree with TDMM that 150 is probably a good spot - same as a second-tier "star" level player in any generation. Like a slightly better Patrick Marleau-type?
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I don't really think Marleau is a good comparison. He was a franchise C; Marleau's always seemed like more of a complementary type.

But yeah, I think of him as a second-tier type star. In his era he was behind guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Trottier and Yzerman. A good dead puck era comparable would be someone like Modano (overshadowed by Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov etc). A good modern day comparable would be Tavares. He just has sexier numbers because of his era (he was better offensively than these guys as well but not by as much as raw numbers suggest and a lot of centres from his era weren't anything special defensively).
 
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I've always felt that Hawerchuk, Savard, and LaFontaine were very similar. High-scoring, highly skilled centers that didn't offer a lot beyond their offense (as opposed to an Yzerman, Sakic, Francis, Modano, etc.), and as such they were often just a tier below the best. Even forgetting Gretz and Mario, I'm not sure many people would have taken Savard or Hawerchuk over Messier in the late 80s, and I'm not sure many people would have taken LaFontaine over Fedorov or Gilmour in the early 90s. That being said, these guys were bonafide top centers that teams could compete with.

Spezza was tracking to be that kind of player (in my opinion) before his scoring fell off a bit around 2010. Maybe a guy like Giroux fits that mold for current players, even though he's not playing center anymore. Or maybe Tavares. Those guys are always overshadowed by the true top tier - Crosby, Malkin, McDavid - but also could be considered below Bergeron, Backstrom, Kopitar, Toews - i.e., guys that score less but probably offer more outside the offensive zone.
 
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Another guy who was overshadowed by the obvious stars of his day. Similar to Federko, didn't play on a popular team during his peak, never went anywhere in the playoffs during that time thus did not have a ton of recognition when he was at his best.

The Macho Man said:
80s offensive stars all have huge numbers, but they're kind of just... in the crowd. I don't think he's top 100 really. I kind of agree with TDMM that 150 is probably a good spot - same as a second-tier "star" level player in any generation. Like a slightly better Patrick Marleau-type?
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Marleau is a stretch. Never made an AST, has two top 10 goal finishes and thats it.

Hawerhcuk at least made a 2nd AST and came in second for the Hart in 85, and we all know there was only one player during that time who was going to win the Hart + make 1st AST.

Plus he placed 3,4,7,9 in scoring which is impressive when you realize he wasn't exactly playing with a Jari Kurri type.
 
VanIslander said:
Dale was...
  • Never top 5 in goals (only thrice top 10)
  • Never top 3 in assists (thrice top 5, twice more top 10)
  • Never made it to conference finals (best scoring came in two first round wins)
Yet he is in the HHOF. He is appreciated enough.
Click to expand...

However..............he stacks up pretty well when you look at his point finishes:

3, 4, 7, 9, 11, 11, 11, 12, 16, 17

He was a great scorer and carried the load for a long time in Winnipeg with maybe Thomas Steen as his next best teammate? Had 13 straight seasons of at least 80+ points. Only Wayne Gretzky is the other player in NHL history to do this.

The Macho Man said:
80s offensive stars all have huge numbers, but they're kind of just... in the crowd. I don't think he's top 100 really. I kind of agree with TDMM that 150 is probably a good spot - same as a second-tier "star" level player in any generation. Like a slightly better Patrick Marleau-type?
Click to expand...

Others have mentioned it already, but he is far above Marleau. Hawerchuk played in the NHL for 16 years, Marleau has played in 22 and he never hit Hawerchuk's level either. In 1985 he was 3rd in scoring and 2nd in Hart voting behind you know who. Marleau could never reach that.

If you did a poll with Hawerchuk vs. Savard it would be interesting if that tells you anything.
 
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EpochLink said:
Hawerchuk centered Paul Mclean and Brian Mullen.
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Right, but Steen is probably considered the best teammate he had in Winnipeg I would think. MacLean had that one big year because of Hawerchuk. I don't think he stood on his own quite as well as Steen.
 
Regarding his career path and place within the pantheon, we may get to a place where we have to constantly remind ourselves that Steven Stamkos was right behind Sid and OV as the top offensive banana, and not just one of the 25 or so legitimately scary forwards going nowadays. So in that sense, he’d be under appreciated if we just forget that he could pop off 60 in a year. But in the wider scope of things, it’s not Sid and OV keeping him out of the spotlight, it’s the 100 other guys with more going in their careers.
 
generic superstar scoring centers, minimum requirements = one 2nd team all-star, one top three in points, and one top five hart placement

dionne, thornton

(gap)

stastny,* oates

(smaller gap)

a morass of ratelle, perreault, savard, hawerchuk, sedin

(same size gap as the one after stastny)

sittler, lafontaine


active players who qualify: getzlaf, giroux, stamkos, tavares


players who fall below the threshold but may belong in this category: federko, turgeon, sundin, staal, backstrom


he was an 06 guy so that's kind of a different ballgame (because was he even on his team's first line?) but does norm ullman belong here too?


* = never was a 2nd team all-star but was 3rd three times including once behind gretzky and mario


———


dionne: AST1, AST1, AST2, AST2, AST3, scoring placements of 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, hart record of 2, 3, 3, 5

thornton: AST1, AST2, AST2, AST2, scoring placements of 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, hart record of 1, 4, 5, 5

stastny: AST3, AST3, AST3, scoring placements of 2, 3, 4, 5, hart record of 4

oates: AST2, scoring placements of 3, 3, 3, hart record of 4

ratelle: AST2, scoring placements of 3, 4, hart record of 4

perreault: AST2, AST2, AST3, AST3, scoring placements of 3, 4, 5, hart record of 5

savard: AST2, AST3, scoring placements of 3, 5, hart record of 3, 5

hawerchuk: AST2, AST3, scoring placements of 3, 4, hart record of 2, 5

sedin: AST1, AST1, scoring placements of 1, 4, hart record of 1

sittler: AST2, scoring placement of 3, hart record of 3

lafontaine: AST2, scoring placement of 2, hart record of 3

getzlaf: AST2, AST3, scoring placement of 2, hart record of 2

giroux: AST2,* AST3, AST3, scoring placements of 2,* 3, 3, hart record of 3, 4,* 4

stamkos: AST2, AST2, AST3, scoring placements of 2, 2, 5, 5, hart record of 2

tavares: AST1, scoring placement of 2, hart record of 3

federko: n/a

turgeon: scoring placement of 5, hart record of 5

sundin: AST2, AST2, scoring placement of 4

staal: AST2, hart record of 4

backstrom: AST3, scoring placements of 4, 4

ullman: AST1, AST2, scoring placements of 2, 3, hart record of 2, 5


* = primarily a LW
 
GlitchMarner said:
I don't really think Marleau is a good comparison. He was a franchise C; Marleau's always seemed like more of a complementary type.

But yeah, I think of him as a second-tier type star. In his era he was behind guys like Gretzky, Lemieux, Trottier and Yzerman. A good dead puck era comparable would be someone like Modano (overshadowed by Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov etc). A good modern day comparable would be Tavares. He just has sexier numbers because of his era (he was better offensively than these guys as well but not by as much as raw numbers suggest and a lot of centres from his era weren't anything special defensively).
Click to expand...

But he has better .ppg than both those players, whilst playing for massively worse teams.....how much weight should one put into that?
 
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