Where does Dale Hawerchuk rank all time?

[Stephen]

Yes, Dale was uniquely off to the races on day 1 as an 18 year old. But starting from Spezza's third season, both guys were highly skilled, putting up asinine offensive numbers, but still just a tier below the best (Hawerchuk was below Gretzky, Trottier, eventually Messier as well; Spezza was below Crosby, Malkin, and probably a few others). If Spezza had kept his level from 06, 07, 08 until about 2015 (aka finished top 5 in assists a few times, and top 5 in points one or two times while being a regular PPG player - the modern equivalent of a 100 point scorer in the 80s) , I think we'd look at both players very similarly in a historical sense.

As it stands, I like the Tavares comparison to Hawerchuk in terms of stature in the league. It helps that Tavares was the lone superstar on the Isles the same way Hawerchuk was the lone star on the Jets. Although Tavares's UFA signing with Toronto got way more fanfare than anything Hawerchuk could have done had he been in the same situation, though that could probably just be chalked up to the media and the obsession with a Toronto player coming home.

Fun fact. Before Dale Hawerchuk was traded to Buffalo, he actually requested a trade to the Toronto Maple Leafs.

 

[frisco]

So he's Joe Thornton, except Joe Thornton's peak is higher.

Pretty much. A difference is Hawerchuk played in the highest scoring era in league history. Thornton did not. So even if you make the slightly crude compensation for era (hockey reference method) Hawerchuk's adjusted big point seasons and totals take a pretty big hit vs. the raw numbers and Thornton's gets bumped up a bit. Thornton had better longevity.

Thornton had six top ten points/game finishes-1, 2, 3, 6, 6, 9.
Hawerchuk was 3, 5.

I personally like the points/game finishes as a metric as it doesn't penalize an injured player, it is era neutral, and allows you to use to include the labor shortened seasons without any problems.

My Best-Carey

 

[mrhockey193195]

True, but he was probably the second-best player in 1984-85, behind only peak-Gretzky... which is to say, at nearly any other time in League history, he would have been the best player. Albeit for only one year.

I go back and forth on Hawerchuk. Few elite players in their primes have achieved so little in the playoffs, and that with two teams. But how much of that is his fault?

I give him extra points for being the best player on two teams for ten years in a row. But while I think most posters on here rank Hawerchuk above Lafontaine, when the two were teammates from 1991 to 1993 Lafontaine completely destroyed Hawerchuk.

There's also a prevailing myth that Hawerchuk was a solid defensive forward, largely due to one faceoff he won in 1987. Hawerchuk was not a good defensive player (not to say most elite forwards were, at the time).

Not sure how relevant that is to any conversation about Hawerchuk v. LaFontaine. They both peaked at different times. Hawerchuk "completely destroys" LaFontaine in a lot of seasons in the late 80s, but they just didn't happen to be on the same team.

I do concede that LaFontaine peaked slightly higher than Hawerchuk peaked; Pat's 92-93 was a tier above Dale's 84-85, and Lafontaine has another 60 games in 91-92 at that same level. But beyond that, Hawerchuk's prime was probably slightly better than LaFontaine's. Overall, I think they have remarkably similar careers.

 

[The Panther]

Overall, I think they have remarkably similar careers.

I agree (except that Hawerchuk enjoyed fewer injuries).

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Not sure how relevant that is to any conversation about Hawerchuk v. LaFontaine. They both peaked at different times. Hawerchuk "completely destroys" LaFontaine in a lot of seasons in the late 80s, but they just didn't happen to be on the same team.

I do concede that LaFontaine peaked slightly higher than Hawerchuk peaked; Pat's 92-93 was a tier above Dale's 84-85, and Lafontaine has another 60 games in 91-92 at that same level. But beyond that, Hawerchuk's prime was probably slightly better than LaFontaine's. Overall, I think they have remarkably similar careers.

I disagree. Lafontaine had Mogilny. Hawerchuk did not have anyone remotely close to Mogilny's skill level.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I do concede that LaFontaine peaked slightly higher than Hawerchuk peaked; Pat's 92-93 was a tier above Dale's 84-85, and Lafontaine has another 60 games in 91-92 at that same level. But beyond that, Hawerchuk's prime was probably slightly better than LaFontaine's. Overall, I think they have remarkably similar careers.

i disagree. lafontaine played four extra games in 1993, which if you prorate to 80 games becomes 141 points. still higher than ducky’s 130 but it doesn’t look quite as drastic.

then consider that 1985 hawerchuk had 83 es points in his 80 games. lafontaine also had 83 es points, in four extra games.

the difference in pp scoring can be explained by 1. the four extra games, 2. there being more pp opportunities in 1993, and 3. hawerchuk playing on winnipeg and lafontaine playing on a historically good pp with two other 50 goal scorers quarterbacked by.... dale hawerchuk.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

ima just leave this here

I was glad to see Hawerchuk on my side for once. He was one of three guys in my life who hit me so hard I was knocked unconscious. I know Hawerchuk gets 100-something points a year, but I still think he's the most underrated guy in the league. When the pressure is on, he always comes through. His only problem is that until recently he's been with a team, Winnipeg, that can't quite get off the ground, so mostly he's gone unnoticed. The world needs to discover this guy, and now that he's in Buffalo, it'll happen.

Still, it became obvious that Dale wasn't going to be one of the big scorers on the team. He'd have to change his role. So we asked him to become a checker. He could've whined and called his agent and gone home, but he didn't. Instead, he was terrific. That's what makes the Canada Cup so fascinating. A superstar goal scorer turns into Joe Defense overnight for love of country.