Where Does Auston Matthews Rank For You As A Goal Scorer All Time?

[GTA]

I'd have top 20 now for sure.

The man is 26 years old.

At 26 Matthews has.

3 rockets
1 Hart
1 Ted Lindsay
Rookie of the year
2 60 goal seasons

AND he's on a better pace than Ovechkin was when he was 26.

I don't how he's not top 20 of all time he's going to hit 400 goals this year.and would probably already have 400 goals if not for the 2 covid shortented seasons

He's a hall of famer today

The answer is because he goal scoring is shit when it actually counts in the playoffs. They should count for a lot more than the regular season.

 

[wetcoast]

The answer is because he goal scoring is shit when it actually counts in the playoffs. They should count for a lot more than the regular season.

Do you apply this metric to every player?

But then your argument is who has the best goal scoring peak years and not at all who is actually the best goal scorer of all time.

The 2 things are not only mutually exclusive there are inherently inclusive in the post you are responding to and really make more sense.

 

[wetcoast]

Considering Marleau played over 1000 more games than Bure, the context here is ridiculous.

Considering Marleau isn’t remotely in the conversation of best goal scorers of all time, it’s even more ridiculous.

Absolutely but then you really shouldn't have added the next part

All-time can be pretty subjective, but when discussing the absolute best of all-time, of course longevity plays a role. Hence why Ovechkin has a solid argument as the greatest of all time and Bure doesn’t.

Funny that you would compare the guy #2 all time to the guy who is tied for 76th to make your point in that the only reason the 76th all time, Bure is tied with Rick Nash, and a single goal behind Gary Roberts is that Bure has 3 rockets and a 3rd and 5th overall in goals thus that's why he is considered by many in the top 10, not because of his overall total.

 

[SeanMoneyHands]

Right behind Ovechkin and Bure and ahead of Stamkos and Kovalchuk.

 

[KevinRedkey]

To be top 5 he needs to have a longer career, while continuing to score a lot.

He's probably close to top 10 (if not already there)

He's definitely top 20 already, even if he retired today.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Two words,

Mike Gartner

You mean the guy who as of right now has the NHL record for most consecutive 30 goal seasons with 15?

yeah that makes you top 20

 

[behemolari]

right there after Laine

 

[Ol' Jase]

Absolutely but then you really shouldn't have added the next part


Funny that you would compare the guy #2 all time to the guy who is tied for 76th to make your point in that the only reason the 76th all time, Bure is tied with Rick Nash, and a single goal behind Gary Roberts is that Bure has 3 rockets and a 3rd and 5th overall in goals thus that's why he is considered by many in the top 10, not because of his overall total.

But he’s not considered the greatest of all time, is he?

Sure, I would put Bure in the top 10 for sure, but what is the main factor that keeps him out of a greatest of all time, or even a top 5 argument?

 

[danny90]

The answer is because he goal scoring is shit when it actually counts in the playoffs. They should count for a lot more than the regular season.

Despite what you’ve heard his goal scoring isn’t bad in the playoffs, they are just not up to par with his regular season which is to be expected unless your Zach Hyman.

 

[Oscar The Grouch]

Despite what you’ve heard his goal scoring isn’t bad in the playoffs, they are just not up to par with his regular season which is to be expected unless your Zach Hyman.

You're right, it's not bad, it's terrible. When you're the team's MVP, and the only thing you do is score goals, you gotta keep scoring goals in the playoffs or you are trash.

 

[danny90]

You're right, it's not bad, it's terrible. When you're the team's MVP, and the only thing you do is score goals, you gotta keep scoring goals in the playoffs or you are trash.

Interesting story you’ve made up maybe you could come up with a league that doesn’t count stats during the regular season or discounts actual playoff stats.

Matthews has underperformed in the playoffs but not terribly you should checkout the actual numbers and comparables.

 

[daver]

Without doing the historical math, my bet is that there are more than 20 guys that you can the same thought process for.

You can argue that 20 players were "better" than him, the same way that Mario is arguably the "best goalscorer" but is not the "greatest. I am not sure you can argue that there are 20 players with clearly "greater" goalscoring resumes.

Let's look at some comparables - Players with long careers who were era best point producers, or close to it, but are not among the list of "Great goalscorers".


Beliveau '53/54 to '70/71: NHL Stats

#3 in goals (Howe, Hull)
#T3 in GPG among the Top 10 (Howe, Hull and Geoffrion)
Top 5 goal finishes (1, 1, 2, 3, 3, 4, 5) plus a 3rd in GPG

#1 in playoff goals
#T2 in GPG (behind Hull)

He was as good as peak/prime Boom Boom was; a player who is noted more as a goalscorer. Beliveau likely is considered a Top 20 Great Goalscorer


Mikita (60/61 to 78/79) : NHL Stats

#3 in goals (Esposito, Hull)
#12 in GPG (among Top 20)
Top 5 goal finishes (2, 2, T2, 3, 4, 5)

#4 in playoff goals
#9 in GPG (among Top 10)

He wins at least one Rocket, maybe two if he is not competing against Hull. He is a Top 3/5 goalscorer from the post-war to expansion.


Marcel Dionne (71/72 to 88/89): NHL Stats

#1 in goals scored
#6 in GPG
Top 5 goal finishes (2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8*) *after league expanded to 21 teams

A solid regular season goalscoring resume but more of a compiler than being "one of the league's best" at any given time.


Joe Sakic (88/89to 06/07):

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

#4 in goals scored
#T4 in GPG
Top 10 goal finishes (2, 5, 6, 6, T10)

#2 in playoff goals (Hull)
#T2 in GPG (Mario, Hull)

Not really known for his goalscoring in the regular season but stepped it up in the playoffs.


Jagr (90/91 to 07/08):

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

#1 in goals scored
#3 in GPG (Hull, Selanne)
Top 10 goal finishes (2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6*, 9,) * #1 in gpg

#2 in playoff goals (Sakic)
#T3 in GPG (Mario, Sakic, Hull)

Likely has at least one Rocket in different circumstances. Jagr likely is considered a Top 20 Greatest Goalscorer


Crosby (06/07 to 23/24):

#2 in goals scored (Ovechkin)
# 3 in GPG (Ovechkin, Stamkos)
Top 10 goal finishes (1, 1, 7, 7, 17*) *#1 in GPG
# of Top 20 goal finishes/Top 20 in GPG - 15

#3 in playoff goals (Pavelski, Ovechkin)
#3 in GPG (Ovechkin, Zetterberg)

His two Rocket wins are notable. Only Ovechkin, Matthews have more in his era. His longevity is notable.


Is his resume that much weaker than Jagr and Beliveau with all things considered? There was a brief spell where he was scoring goals at a rate the was rivalling peak Ovechkin.

 

[DingerMcSlapshot]

Just inside the top 10 alltime.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

To be top 5 he needs to have a longer career, while continuing to score a lot.

He's probably close to top 10 (if not already there)

He's definitely top 20 already, even if he retired today.

I'm not ready to put him top 10 yet but if he wins a 4th rocket, I think at that point he's top 10.

And if he manages another 50+-60+ goal season he is DEFINITELY top 10 at that point

 

[wetcoast]

You mean the guy who as of right now has the NHL record for most consecutive 30 goal seasons with 15?

yeah that makes you top 20

That would be a big NO.

Thats why some people refer to Mike Gartner as a compiler as he was never a serious threat to be a top goal scorer like ever.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

That would be a big NO.

Has does 15 consecutive 30+ goal seasons, and 700+ career goals not make you top 20? That's a remarkable level of consistency

 

[wetcoast]

Has does 15 consecutive 30+ goal seasons, and 700+ career goals not make you top 20? That's a remarkable level of consistency

Sure he was consistently too 15ish or so in goals in a high scoring era maybe less than that just going off memory here.

 

[Plural]

Has does 15 consecutive 30+ goal seasons, and 700+ career goals not make you top 20? That's a remarkable level of consistency

Who would you leave out from the top-20 to slot him in?

 

[Strangle]

What's this rush to rank a bloke on an All-time list when he hasn't even cracked top 100 for goal scorers all time yet.

The fact that Matthews hasn't even cracked the top 100 all time goal scorers list, maybe wait until he hits 30 and you get a better idea of what's left for him to catch so and so on the list of scorers.

For some, number of goals is very important. For others number of goals in how many games played is also important.

This includes shorter careers and players in their primes.

Mike bossy scored 573 goals in just over 700 games. He is a better goal scorer than at least 15 or 20 of the players ranked ahead of him on the all time goals list

Sure, ciccerelli scored like 40 more goals than bossy did ….. but it took him about 600 more games to do it

 

[Honour Over Glory]

For some, number of goals is very important. For others number of goals in how many games played is also important.

This includes shorter careers and players in their primes.

Mike bossy scored 573 goals in just over 700 games. He is a better goal scorer than at least 15 or 20 of the players ranked ahead of him on the all time goals list

Sure, ciccerelli scored like 40 more goals than bossy did ….. but it took him about 600 more games to do it

If you want to walk down the path of ppg and a benchmark of games for players that has their careers shortened, there's a very good case that the top 5 players would be a lot different in perspective. Like Bossy and Lemieux.

But Matthews is young and claiming anything now will just be idiotic when he has dips later in his career before he hits 30 and it changes his trajectory rapidly and on the other side of that, he can also score more than realized and change everything.

But to make claims at 26 is ridiculous. Most of this board can't even accept Sid's pure dominance the year he got his neck injury and the pace he then repeated in a 1/4 season, and this is a f***ing legend of a player. So there's also that with the way blokes think. I like Matthews, I hope he hits 70+ while the league scoring has been up for a few years before it dips eventually. The last 7 seasons or so the scoring has been way up compared to the tighter 2005-2012 era.

It'd be cool to see Matthews finish 2nd or 3rd overall in the history of goal scorers but at 26, so much can happen that can change a lot of that.

 

[BlueBaron]

You're right, it's not bad, it's terrible. When you're the team's MVP, and the only thing you do is score goals, you gotta keep scoring goals in the playoffs or you are trash.

23 goals in 55 career playoff games isn't terrible in any reality. It just isn't elite. Hard to take you seriously now. Clearly some kind of bias.

 

[Video Nasty]

23 goals in 55 career playoff games isn't terrible in any reality. It just isn't elite. Hard to take you seriously now. Clearly some kind of bias.

I think their point stands. For a guy who has played 91% of his playoffs games exclusively in the first round, his decline in production is significant. So far, he’s a 54 goal scorer in the regular season and the equivalent of a 34 goal scorer in the playoffs. No matter how you spin it, that’s a big decline.

If we split his eight playoffs down the middle, he started with 12 goals in his first 25 games and has 11 in his last 30. This decline has coincided with him becoming a 60+ goal scorer over the past four seasons.

We can’t pretend it’s not a glaring disappointment and there’s no need to sugarcoat it. When someone is a player of the caliber that he is, it’s a given that he needs to come close to his own high standards that he set. It is terrible for a forward who has been top 5 in the world for awhile now. Why would you give this a pass?

I don’t think it’ll be this way forever, but call a spade a spade.

 

[Rabid Ranger]

Matthews might be the most polarizing player in HF history.

 

[x Tame Impala]

23 goals in 55 career playoff games isn't terrible in any reality. It just isn't elite. Hard to take you seriously now. Clearly some kind of bias.

Respective to his cap hit his production is incredibly lacking. Edmonton will be fine paying McDrai $30m combined because those two produce in the playoffs.

Matthews and the Leafs core being underwhelming is devastating for Toronto because they eat up so much cap space that doesn’t give them value in the playoffs. It’s not bias, it’s the simple realities of a cap league.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

I don’t think it’ll be this way forever, but call a spade a spade.

Why would it change?