Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[Retire91]

Huh? Where's the second one?

The Wings have 3 players with double digit goals, Copp has 7 (2 EN) and Raz has 6 (1 EN).

For comparison, the Caps random mashup of NHL castaways have 5 double digit scorers and 9 players with 7 or more goals. That doesn't even include PLD with 26 points or Carlson with 23.

Sorry just going to check out at this point. Want to be negative on the team its every fans right. I choose to see the building aspects and not let a throw away season of the rebuild impact my outlook when there are clearly good things going on. Enjoy the Yzerman bashing echo chamber of people yelling at clouds.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Excuse me what? Holland did not do anything even remotely close to rebuilding before he left. Getting a high pick because you finally drove the team as far into the ground as it could go was the consequences of going for it as many times as you could until the wheels fell off and fell to last place. The rebuild did not start until Yzerman got here. This is year 6

So drafting 9th and 6th overall are simply scrubbed because we didn't sell enough?

Rasmussen and Zadina were not quick turn around picks...they were initial rebuilding blocks who simply didn't work out as well as had hoped (sounds familiar with other clubs questionable picks during rebuilds that we as DRWfans f9nt excuse away)...

SY has done a good job, he honestly has. he is not immune from criticism however..

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

Yzerman did the smartest possible thing going into this season. He gambled on bringing in some more vets who have playoff and champion experience, so if the Wings came out swinging like last season, he looks like a genius for bringing in dudes to help us in the postseason.

However, the team went route two, in which case he's also a genius because "we're still rebuilding, these guys are stop gaps until the prospects are ready"


Obviously the fans who came into this season hoping we'd ride the momentum from the end of last season are extremely disappointed, frustrated, and disenfranchised with the Yzerplan.



Also, as I was typing this I saw Mclellan was hired. So there is hope, I guess?

 

[19 for president]

So drafting 9th and 6th overall are simply scrubbed because we didn't sell enough?

Rasmussen and Zadina were not quick turn around picks...they were initial rebuilding blocks who simply didn't work out as well as had hoped (sounds familiar with other clubs questionable picks during rebuilds that we as DRWfans f9nt excuse away)...

SY has done a good job, he honestly has. he is not immune from criticism however..

Yeah I don't think you can discount the 6th and 9th as the beginning of the rebuild, Holland just scrubbed it. If you make a better choice and nab one of Dobson, Bouchard, or Hughes over Zadina we likely take an extra forward instead of Ed or ASP because we already have another top dman in the system. If you land a Vilardi, Suzuki, Necas, or my preference Thomas then you have another viable offensive asset at forward. This rebuild is a lot further along if Holland had made better choices.

*I qualify this as I was excited about Zadina in 2018 and was meh about Ras in 2017.

I think Yzerman's rebuild is still TBD as none of his 1st rounders have failed to hit. Until he doesn't hit or if we still aren't competing once all those early picks are on the roster, its going to be really hard to judge the rebuild.

I have lots of criticisms on some of his UFA signings and his lack of addressing the defense this off season, but I don't really consider that the rebuild. The only thing I dislike so far rebuild wise, is holding onto Lalonde too long. I think that could have a negative effect long term unless McLellan and turn this around pretty quickly.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

So drafting 9th and 6th overall are simply scrubbed because we didn't sell enough?

Rasmussen and Zadina were not quick turn around picks...they were initial rebuilding blocks who simply didn't work out as well as had hoped (sounds familiar with other clubs questionable picks during rebuilds that we as DRWfans f9nt excuse away)...

SY has done a good job, he honestly has. he is not immune from criticism however..

missing the playoffs and drafting high =/= rebuilding. rebuilding is a conscious decision to trade veteran roster players for futures, play younger players for the purpose of development, assessment of talent and determine needs throught the roster. it is a long and difficult process, one that Holland had no desire to take part in and is likely the main reason he chose to leave detroit

the rebuild started the day yzerman took over

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

missing the playoffs and drafting high =/= rebuilding. rebuilding is a conscious decision to trade veteran roster players for futures, play younger players for the purpose of development, assessment of talent and determine needs throught the roster. it is a long and difficult process, one that Holland had no desire to take part in and is likely the main reason he chose to leave detroit

the rebuild started the day yzerman took over

Didn't KH sell off assets specifically for future draft picks in both 2017 and 2018 to aquire future rebuilding capital?

 

[Gniwder]

So can we count Lalonde as a mistake?

I think he did more damage than good, chasing away Vrana, Sprong, and Walman (all 3 were healthy scratched). Possibly Fabbri and Maatta as well. He's done very little to help Burger. Plus everyone took a step backwards this season.

 

[Euro Twins]

So can we count Lalonde as a mistake?

I think he did more damage than good, chasing away Vrana, Sprong, and Walman (all 3 were healthy scratched). Possibly Fabbri and Maatta as well. He's done very little to help Burger. Plus everyone took a step backwards this season.

Nah vrana was his own undoing

 

[FMichael]

So can we count Lalonde as a mistake?

I think he did more damage than good, chasing away Vrana, Sprong, and Walman (all 3 were healthy scratched). Possibly Fabbri and Maatta as well. He's done very little to help Burger. Plus everyone took a step backwards this season.

If Lalonde was a member of organized crime....He would've been sleeping with the fishes a looooong time ago.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

First, I'd really quibble with your downgrading of Danielson and Kasper based on a very small sample size and based on literally one stat, but that aside...if you're going to trash Danielson/Mazur/Kasper for their lack of counting stats, if you're being fair you then have to bring up ASP and Buch, right?

ASP is literally the only Red Wings prospect not named Augustine or Cossa that I'm excited to see, especially after his performance for Sweden yesterday.

Meanwhile, you know that stats like goals and assists for Round 1 forward draft picks matter, right? Not this "underlying numbers" garbage that nobody cares about which was the hallmark of Detorit's now-former coach, right?

It's their job to score goals and produce offense. They're not doing it - at least, not at a level that Red Wings fans could get excited about.

As I said before, their numbers absolutely could improve. But I'm not encouraged that Kasper will be anything more than a bottom-six forward who can bring some energy based on his sample size right now. If he was some game-changing top-level talent, he'd have more than two goals in 30 games, even as a rookie.

 

[Hockeyfan2390]

So what? You demand a better product otherwise you will complain on hfboards?

Fans are allowed to demand a better product. It's a business, and the fans are the paying customers.

And if the team doesn't deliver a satisfactory product, the fans don't have to give them their money anymore. No different than eating at a restaurant that caused you to have explosive diarrhea after every meal for six years - eventually, people aren't going to come back until the product they pay for improves.

And since Steve Yzerman doesn't host weekly Q+A's with the fans, a platform like HFBoards is one of the ways that fans can vent their frustrations.

People act like after certain amount of time they are entitled to something.

No, but fans are right to be frustrated by the fact that the Red Wings are the 2nd to last team in the East with an equally abysmal ranking in goals scored and goals allowed midway through Yzerman's sixth year on the job.

Meanwhile, you act as though it's blasphemy to question the direction the club has taken under Yzerman, who isn't some kind of Teflon deity who is 100% off limits from being questioned.

If you want to complain about Yzerman than you need to keep your facts straight, it is his 6th season.

Yeah, and the fact that they're trending toward a 6th straight year outside of the playoffs (unless yesterday's coaching change lights a fire under the team and their woefully underperforming players) is unacceptable.

You're free to think that Yzerman deserves unlimited runway while trotting out the tired "look at what he inherited, what did you expect" excuse, but you can't get upset at fans who expected this product to be much further along by now.

 

[Pavels Dog]

As I said before, their numbers absolutely could improve. But I'm not encouraged that Kasper will be anything more than a bottom-six forward who can bring some energy based on his sample size right now. If he was some game-changing top-level talent, he'd have more than two goals in 30 games, even as a rookie.

There's room in between "bottom six forward" and "game-changing top-level talent" though.

Kasper is, at worst, trending towards being a good middle-six forward.

When it comes to scoring, keep in mind that the vast majority of 20 year olds don't play center in the NHL, and even fewer do it without being surrounded by really good veterans. In fact the only rookie with more faceoffs than Kasper is Celebrini (he's in the game-changing tier), and the closest guys behind him are 22 year olds.

 

[Sentinel]

Losing Ghost and Walman.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Anyone have any idea what's going on with pro scouting? I can piece together that Bruce Haralson and Marty Stein were let go when Yzerman returned, and Mark Howe retired. It looks like Eric Soltys served as a NA scout but left after one season in 2022.

There's Maltby and Chris Yzerman, so we've got the former player / nepotism angle covered quite well in this department. Anyone know anything about whether there's anyone leading this goat rodeo? For instance, in Europe, Hakan Andersson is the director of scouting. There are three other pro scouts listed on the website: Kyle MacKinnon, Boyd Gordon and Brian Flynn.

My suspicion is Draper is leading this but without the title. He's formally head of Amateur Scouting, but it does seem weird there's no one who replaced Howe's formal role.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I wanted to discuss Lalonde's firing in the safe space here rather than deal with the Yzerman obsessed in the main forum.

Well you guys were right that Lalonde should've been fired much earlier. I was a little slow to come around but the last few weeks this team was clearly rudderless and demoralized. Boughner deservedly got canned too after the PK that was inexplicably awful and not changing.

This season is looking like it will be a lost one. If McLellan turns things around it's gonna take a lot to make the playoffs, but they'll likely be better than bottom 5 times in terms of draft pick.

 

[Pengu]

Signing ANY free agents that wasn't poor. I would say 90% of his UFA singing were outright bad. Holl, Chiarot were EXTREMELY bad. Gustafsson was poor, Signing all this garbage meant young d had no room and you had to let Walman and Ghost leave. Not much better up front with Copp, Tarasenko, Kane not performing. Compher is not turning out well either.
Which UFA signing actually were a success?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Signing ANY free agents that wasn't poor. I would say 90% of his UFA singing were outright bad. Holl, Chiarot were EXTREMELY bad. Gustafsson was poor, Signing all this garbage meant young d had no room and you had to let Walman and Ghost leave. Not much better up front with Copp, Tarasenko, Kane not performing. Compher is not turning out well either.
Which UFA signing actually were a success?

Chiarot was not a bad signing. He's just playing above where he should.
Ghost got a 3 year deal with Carolina. It's highly likely Yzerman didn't want to give him that term.
Walman's departure wasn't for his play on the ice.

The replacement players you've mentioned like Tank, Kane and Gustaffson have definitely been a disappointment. And I don't know what the hell happened with Compher but he's been awful this season.

McLellan's got his work cut out for him but hopefully he can provide some sort of structure.

 

[SirloinUB]

Signing ANY free agents that wasn't poor. I would say 90% of his UFA singing were outright bad. Holl, Chiarot were EXTREMELY bad. Gustafsson was poor, Signing all this garbage meant young d had no room and you had to let Walman and Ghost leave. Not much better up front with Copp, Tarasenko, Kane not performing. Compher is not turning out well either.
Which UFA signing actually were a success?

Umm. Ghostisbehere..

Wild how often people point to him leaving as a mistake without giving credit for bringing him in as a UFA in the first place.

Im of the mindset that Chairot, Copp and Compher are okay signings.

Kane was a good ufa signing . Extending him hasn’t worked out well but he definitely brought a boost to the offence last year.

Talbot + Lyon were good UFA signings

Maatta was solid too.

Sprong had a decent run after coming on as a UFA. He had his warts but he brought some depth offence that the team is sorely missing right now.

I’m not saying his UfA work has been world beating but a Lot of good work gets glossed over.

 

[Frk It]

Anyone have any idea what's going on with pro scouting? I can piece together that Bruce Haralson and Marty Stein were let go when Yzerman returned, and Mark Howe retired. It looks like Eric Soltys served as a NA scout but left after one season in 2022.

There's Maltby and Chris Yzerman, so we've got the former player / nepotism angle covered quite well in this department. Anyone know anything about whether there's anyone leading this goat rodeo? For instance, in Europe, Hakan Andersson is the director of scouting. There are three other pro scouts listed on the website: Kyle MacKinnon, Boyd Gordon and Brian Flynn.

My suspicion is Draper is leading this but without the title. He's formally head of Amateur Scouting, but it does seem weird there's no one who replaced Howe's formal role.

My suspicion is Draper is doing the actual job he’s listed as having.

 

[SirloinUB]

My suspicion is Draper is doing the actual job he’s listed as having.

Easy. That’s a tinfoil hat type of theory

 

[Run the Jewels]

My suspicion is Draper is doing the actual job he’s listed as having.

So who's leading pro scouting? Have they left the position open since Howe retired? Was someone promoted internally but not given the title?

 

[Frk It]

So who's leading pro scouting? Have they left the position open since Howe retired? Was someone promoted internally but not given the title?

Do you think someone could handle heading Amateur AND Pro scouting? Do you know how many regions you have to keep tabs on for amateur scouting alone?

My guess is the pro scouting is being ran either by Yzerman’s brother or one of the guys listed on the team site that has an ambiguous title. Possibly Fischer, I think he was tasked with scouting Euro FA’s at one point.

 

[SoupNazi]

The replacement players you've mentioned like Tank, Kane and Gustaffson have definitely been a disappointment.

As far as Kane and Tank go, I'm interested in seeing how the perform under the new coach. I think they've both been disappointments but I wonder if McLellan will bring out anything else in them.

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

As far as Kane and Tank go, I'm interested in seeing how the perform under the new coach. I think they've both been disappointments but I wonder if McLellan will bring out anything else in them.

he could start by playing tank on his natural side. can't wait for todd's first practice lines to drop

 

[Run the Jewels]

Do you think someone could handle heading Amateur AND Pro scouting? Do you know how many regions you have to keep tabs on for amateur scouting alone?

My guess is the pro scouting is being ran either by Yzerman’s brother or one of the guys listed on the team site that has an ambiguous title. Possibly Fischer, I think he was tasked with scouting Euro FA’s at one point.

My initial question was who is heading up NA pro scouting? Doesn't it seem weird they didn't fill Howe's role? From your replies I get that you don't know, which is totally understandable.

I wouldn't expect any of the beat writers to ask about this other than maybe Max.