Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[rangersblues]

Shouldn't be difficult to attract a good coach. Original 6 franchise with a deep prospect pool and an established NHL GM. There are much worse jobs an unemployed coach could take.

I don't think the prospect pool is as deep as many believe. We're still years away from competing for a championship. Possibly even one more coaching cycle. Many teams that are closer will be firing coaches before that.

 

[Shaman464]

Shouldn't be difficult to attract a good coach. Original 6 franchise with a deep prospect pool and an established NHL GM. There are much worse jobs an unemployed coach could take.

Detroit has no high end offensive talent, thin on defense and no goalie. A bad few years behind the bench can kill a coaching career for all but the most established coaches. Why would a good coach risk his career?

 

[JohanFranzenstein]

One problem here is the same problem Leafs had when they were bad. People still pay to go see this trash heap. If you want change, vote with your money.

Problem is, I'd say 80% of the people in attendance aren't die hard Red Wings / hockey fans like the large majority on this board. They're just people looking for something fun to do downtown. Which is fine, but it's actively hurting the people who actually care about the on ice product.

Chris I. doesn't see any difference in our dollars spent however. Such is life in corporate America.

 

[LongTimeDRWF]

I'm unsure what anyone thinks Yzerman can do with this particular team. Firing the coach is obvious but that's easier said then done. I think they're going to have some difficulty attracting an established coach because they'd be waiting for more attractive situations. I fairly certain the next coach is being searched for at this point.

It took 2 months to hire Lalonde after Blashill didn't get his contract renewed. I'm guessing this will take similar or more as it's harder to do an extensive search midseason than at seasons end. Firing Lalonde is akin to shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic at this point. It's highly doubtful it would make any significant difference to this season and if it did it would only worsen our draft pick. All we can hope for this season is our prospects develop in the minors, and frankly I'm no where near as optimistic about that as some.

Does anyone know what the rules/standards are about contacting coaches outside the organization midseason for interviews etc?

If a coach is already or still under contract, you can not even call or make any contact with them. If a coach has been relived of their duties, but still under contract (the usual case of firing), you must ask for permission from his employer to make contact and/or hire.

BTW, luv the Kitchener Rangers avi, that you?

 

[WingsToPick4th]

I’ve been a die hard wings fan my entire life and have never been this disinterested

 

[Baaaaaaaaaaaaah]

I've been a die hard Wings fan since the '83/84 season. I have had it. Last 4 weeks I can't even bring myself to watch a period.

 

[raymond23]

The most boring team ever

There isn't even anything to discuss

 

[AlwaysSunnyInDetroit]

If Kasper and Danielsson don't mature to take his spot as a 1st line C, he is younger and able to be a 1st line C. Thats the conundrum im having.

danielson is going to be a 1c. worst case scenario, he's a 2c on a contending team

 

[Winger98]

There's been a lot of talk this year about how Yzerman's had plenty of time to turn it around, so I started looking around the league. I counted a rebuild having been started when a team misses the playoffs two straight years and for them to be out of the rebuild if they make the playoffs for two straight years.

Chicago: missed playoffs 9 out of 10 years. Currently missed 6 of last 7.
Pittsburgh: missed 4 years.
Arizona: missed 11 of last 12 playoffs
Ottawa: missed last 7
Tampa: missed 5 of 6
Edmonton: missed 12 of 13
Vancouver: has missed 7 of 8
St. Louis: missed 5 of 6
Washington: missed 3 in a row
New Jersey: missed 9 of 10 and 10 of 12 (still haven't made the playoffs in consecutive years)
Buffalo: has missed 13 straight

One, I know we missed the playoffs 3 years previous to this under Holland, but I have a hard time crediting those years to Yzerman's rebuild. Our 1st round picks in those years were Zadina, Ras, and Cholowski. If we had grabbed guys who actually helped us and played pivotal roles, I would have viewed them differently.

Short rebuilds look like a rarity. If you're crazy lucky, you pull guys like Crosby, Malkin, and Ovi from a draft and your rebuild is essentially over. If you're just regular lucky, you get out in 7ish years. 10+ isn't exactly a rarity, though. Yzerman has missed 5 years, which is at the very low end of these rebuilds. Even with Holland's last three years tacked on, it's not a crazy long run in context with these other rebuilds.

 

[Retire91]

This hockey is not more boring than post Datsyuk era Holland, because at that time it was truly hopeless. We have the building blocks already, this is growing pains, not a trend.

 

[The Zermanator]

There's been a lot of talk this year about how Yzerman's had plenty of time to turn it around, so I started looking around the league. I counted a rebuild having been started when a team misses the playoffs two straight years and for them to be out of the rebuild if they make the playoffs for two straight years.

Chicago: missed playoffs 9 out of 10 years. Currently missed 6 of last 7.
Pittsburgh: missed 4 years.
Arizona: missed 11 of last 12 playoffs
Ottawa: missed last 7
Tampa: missed 5 of 6
Edmonton: missed 12 of 13
Vancouver: has missed 7 of 8
St. Louis: missed 5 of 6
Washington: missed 3 in a row
New Jersey: missed 9 of 10 and 10 of 12 (still haven't made the playoffs in consecutive years)
Buffalo: has missed 13 straight

One, I know we missed the playoffs 3 years previous to this under Holland, but I have a hard time crediting those years to Yzerman's rebuild. Our 1st round picks in those years were Zadina, Ras, and Cholowski. If we had grabbed guys who actually helped us and played pivotal roles, I would have viewed them differently.

Short rebuilds look like a rarity. If you're crazy lucky, you pull guys like Crosby, Malkin, and Ovi from a draft and your rebuild is essentially over. If you're just regular lucky, you get out in 7ish years. 10+ isn't exactly a rarity, though. Yzerman has missed 5 years, which is at the very low end of these rebuilds. Even with Holland's last three years tacked on, it's not a crazy long run in context with these other rebuilds.

I don't know how anyone could possibly hold Yzerman responsible for what occurred before his tenure. One needs only to look at the state of the team at the time he inherited it to see that he was starting from zero. He had Larkin (and to a lesser extent Hronek) and that's it. If you consider the state of the team outside of those two in terms of NHL talent, contracts, prospect pool, etc, he wasn't even starting from zero. He found himself at the bottom of a large hole he needed to dig the team out of.

He's done a remarkable job IMO, and the worst criticisms people can levy towards him revolve around non-factors like Walman and Copp who have no bearing on the actual rebuild taking place. One is an inconsistent showboat who can put up numbers being gifted prime ice time on the worst teams in the league, and the other is a warm body placeholder until the real reinforcements arrive. Strip away all that noise and looking purely at the core of the rebuild, and the Wings are in an excellent spot, a night and day difference from where the team was when Yzerman took over.

 

[TheClap]

This hockey is not more boring than post Datsyuk era Holland, because at that time it was truly hopeless. We have the building blocks already, this is growing pains, not a trend.

The Wings are going to have have 10 guys over 30 by the end of the year.

This is like telling your grandpappy growing pains are the reason his knees hurt.

 

[Nut Upstrom]

I don't know how anyone could possibly hold Yzerman responsible for what occurred before his tenure. One needs only to look at the state of the team at the time he inherited it to see that he was starting from zero. He had Larkin (and to a lesser extent Hronek) and that's it. If you consider the state of the team outside of those two in terms of NHL talent, contracts, prospect pool, etc, he wasn't even starting from zero. He found himself at the bottom of a large hole he needed to dig the team out of.

He's done a remarkable job IMO, and the worst criticisms people can levy towards him revolve around non-factors like Walman and Copp who have no bearing on the actual rebuild taking place. One is an inconsistent showboat who can put up numbers being gifted prime ice time on the worst teams in the league, and the other is a warm body placeholder until the real reinforcements arrive. Strip away all that noise and looking purely at the core of the rebuild, and the Wings are in an excellent spot, a night and day difference from where the team was when Yzerman took over.

Whatever Walman is, he should have returned an asset rather than costing one. Hell, that second probably could have been used to land us Kakko.

 

[SirloinUB]

The Wings are going to have have 10 guys over 30 by the end of the year.

This is like telling your grandpappy growing pains are the reason his knees hurt.

They have added Raymond, Seider, Edvinsson, Kasper, Berggren & Johansson to the roster on top of a high end prospect pool.

Fixating on some placeholders UFAs while our young prospects develop is like ignoring your young kids while your great grandpappy dies of old age.

 

[rangersblues]

If a coach is already or still under contract, you can not even call or make any contact with them. If a coach has been relived of their duties, but still under contract (the usual case of firing), you must ask for permission from his employer to make contact and/or hire.

BTW, luv the Kitchener Rangers avi, that you?

No lol. That's Walter Tkaczuk. Last season before the playoffs a board member suggested we change our avi to our favourite all-time Kitchener Ranger. I picked Walter.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

There's been a lot of talk this year about how Yzerman's had plenty of time to turn it around, so I started looking around the league. I counted a rebuild having been started when a team misses the playoffs two straight years and for them to be out of the rebuild if they make the playoffs for two straight years.

Chicago: missed playoffs 9 out of 10 years. Currently missed 6 of last 7.
Pittsburgh: missed 4 years.
Arizona: missed 11 of last 12 playoffs
Ottawa: missed last 7
Tampa: missed 5 of 6
Edmonton: missed 12 of 13
Vancouver: has missed 7 of 8
St. Louis: missed 5 of 6
Washington: missed 3 in a row
New Jersey: missed 9 of 10 and 10 of 12 (still haven't made the playoffs in consecutive years)
Buffalo: has missed 13 straight

One, I know we missed the playoffs 3 years previous to this under Holland, but I have a hard time crediting those years to Yzerman's rebuild. Our 1st round picks in those years were Zadina, Ras, and Cholowski. If we had grabbed guys who actually helped us and played pivotal roles, I would have viewed them differently.

Short rebuilds look like a rarity. If you're crazy lucky, you pull guys like Crosby, Malkin, and Ovi from a draft and your rebuild is essentially over. If you're just regular lucky, you get out in 7ish years. 10+ isn't exactly a rarity, though. Yzerman has missed 5 years, which is at the very low end of these rebuilds. Even with Holland's last three years tacked on, it's not a crazy long run in context with these other rebuilds.

Looking at that, I think you make a great case for overhauling the current salary cap structure. It's a league where the same teams every year are in the playoffs and the same teams are missing every year. Bad contracts keep a team bad for their duration and create terrible inflexibility to get away from the bad and improve.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

I wonder if the new CBA can get us a free buyout. I doubt it, but hey can always hope.

 

[Lampedampe]

Edvinsson-Seider
Walman-Maata
Chiarot-Petry
Holl

The season would look very different with this defense.

 

[SirloinUB]

Edvinsson-Seider
Walman-Maata
Chiarot-Petry
Holl

The season would look very different with this defense.

Edvinsson-Seider
Walman-Maata
Chiarot-Petry
Holl

The season would look very different with this defense.

Edvinsson-Seider
Walman-Maata
Chiarot-Petry
Holl

The season would look very different with this defense.

You okay, bud?

 

[The Zermanator]

Whatever Walman is, he should have returned an asset rather than costing one. Hell, that second probably could have been used to land us Kakko.

We have no way of knowing that.

We don't know what the circumstances in the locker room were that led to it, though there was a lot of smoke that there were character/commitment issues with him. And given the lack of farewell from his teammates and some suspiciously ambiguous comments from Larkin, all that smoke points to a fire. Seems to me that getting rid of that is a good thing.

And we don't know what the trade market was like at that time and what anyone would have been willing to offer, if anything. Seems to me that this claim that we should have gotten something rather than giving something up relies on the idea that Yzerman did no due diligence whatsoever before pulling the trigger on that trade. Which would seem to me to be unlikely on its face, especially so when you consider Yzerman's overall trading history.

I'll continue to parrot what I think is the most reasonable explanation, Walman did not have the trade value that some around here thought. And trade value is determined at the time of the trade, not after the fact when everyone can benefit from hindsight. There is no reason to think that Walman would be producing like he is now if he was still a Red Wing. In June of 2024, Walman was not a valuable asset, especially since most teams had cap concerns. This isn't the first time a struggling player was dumped and found himself in the right situation and saw some success. Good for him, doesn't mean getting rid of him wasn't the right move. Again, no reason to think he'd be performing this way on the Wings.

Edvinsson is in his place now, and that is a massive upgrade in a number of ways. Was happy to see Walman gone, just like I'll be happy when Petry, Holl, and to a lesser extent Chiarot follow him out the door. I'm not concerned with the order that happens in.

 

[Lampedampe]

You okay, bud?

Lost Internet connection for a second

 

[Snuggs]

There's been a lot of talk this year about how Yzerman's had plenty of time to turn it around, so I started looking around the league. I counted a rebuild having been started when a team misses the playoffs two straight years and for them to be out of the rebuild if they make the playoffs for two straight years.

Chicago: missed playoffs 9 out of 10 years. Currently missed 6 of last 7.
Pittsburgh: missed 4 years.
Arizona: missed 11 of last 12 playoffs
Ottawa: missed last 7
Tampa: missed 5 of 6
Edmonton: missed 12 of 13
Vancouver: has missed 7 of 8
St. Louis: missed 5 of 6
Washington: missed 3 in a row
New Jersey: missed 9 of 10 and 10 of 12 (still haven't made the playoffs in consecutive years)
Buffalo: has missed 13 straight

One, I know we missed the playoffs 3 years previous to this under Holland, but I have a hard time crediting those years to Yzerman's rebuild. Our 1st round picks in those years were Zadina, Ras, and Cholowski. If we had grabbed guys who actually helped us and played pivotal roles, I would have viewed them differently.

Short rebuilds look like a rarity. If you're crazy lucky, you pull guys like Crosby, Malkin, and Ovi from a draft and your rebuild is essentially over. If you're just regular lucky, you get out in 7ish years. 10+ isn't exactly a rarity, though. Yzerman has missed 5 years, which is at the very low end of these rebuilds. Even with Holland's last three years tacked on, it's not a crazy long run in context with these other rebuilds.

Six of these teams outright tanked on purpose for many years... That screws things if you take "tanking" into consideration.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I wonder if the new CBA can get us a free buyout. I doubt it, but hey can always hope.

We need more than that. I keep advocating for lower or no penalties on buyouts. It will remain a static league until that happens.

Here's how I would do it; the player gets paid out 2/3 of the remaining 3 years. Either no penalty or only a penalty of 1/3 of the contract's remaining value for the remaining years of the contract up to a max of 3 years. None of this 5+ years penalty shit for a contract like Abdelkader's or Suter's or Parise's.

 

[ricky0034]

There's been a lot of talk this year about how Yzerman's had plenty of time to turn it around, so I started looking around the league. I counted a rebuild having been started when a team misses the playoffs two straight years and for them to be out of the rebuild if they make the playoffs for two straight years.

Chicago: missed playoffs 9 out of 10 years. Currently missed 6 of last 7.
Pittsburgh: missed 4 years.
Arizona: missed 11 of last 12 playoffs
Ottawa: missed last 7
Tampa: missed 5 of 6
Edmonton: missed 12 of 13
Vancouver: has missed 7 of 8
St. Louis: missed 5 of 6
Washington: missed 3 in a row
New Jersey: missed 9 of 10 and 10 of 12 (still haven't made the playoffs in consecutive years)
Buffalo: has missed 13 straight

One, I know we missed the playoffs 3 years previous to this under Holland, but I have a hard time crediting those years to Yzerman's rebuild. Our 1st round picks in those years were Zadina, Ras, and Cholowski. If we had grabbed guys who actually helped us and played pivotal roles, I would have viewed them differently.

Short rebuilds look like a rarity. If you're crazy lucky, you pull guys like Crosby, Malkin, and Ovi from a draft and your rebuild is essentially over. If you're just regular lucky, you get out in 7ish years. 10+ isn't exactly a rarity, though. Yzerman has missed 5 years, which is at the very low end of these rebuilds. Even with Holland's last three years tacked on, it's not a crazy long run in context with these other rebuilds.

couldn't you say similar things about many of those other teams too though?

most of them surely had multiple GMs too

 

[SirloinUB]

We need more than that. I keep advocating for lower or no penalties on buyouts. It will remain a static league until that happens.

Here's how I would do it; the player gets paid out 2/3 of the remaining 3 years. Either no penalty or only a penalty of 1/3 of the contract's remaining value for the remaining years of the contract up to a max of 3 years. None of this 5+ years penalty shit for a contract like Abdelkader's or Suter's or Parise's.

I don’t see why the PA would agree to any of this.