Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[Henkka]

To beat a dead horse:

Ed-Mo
Walman-Hronek
Chiarot-Maata

This would have been a decent defense.

You add 3.4M (Walman) and 7.25M Hronek in caphits.

So you don't sign 3.4M Holl, and 2.0M Gustafsson on those off-seasons.

That's 5.25M less in cap space. Then there's no Kane at season before, because Hronek existed. And no Kane proably at all.

Also, Yzerman got draft picks from Hronek and used the 1st to draft Sandin Pellikka. That 2nd was traded down for Brady Cleveland + extra 5th pick Kevin Bicker.

So this Hronek-trade basicly is transferring the rebuild timeline back with 8 years, from 27-year old Hronek to 19-year old Pellikka. Plus getting some extra draft picks and opening cap space for short-term help.

 

[Lampedampe]

You add 3.4M (Walman) and 7.25M Hronek in caphits.

So you don't sign 3.4M Holl, and 2.0M Gustafsson on those off-seasons.

That's 5.25M less in cap space. Then there's no Kane at season before, because Hronek existed. And no Kane proably at all.

I'd be fine with that.

If he doesn't trade for Petry there would be money for Kane though, right?

A lot of things probably would have been different if Yzerman kept Hronek.

 

[Ulysses31]

You add 3.4M (Walman) and 7.25M Hronek in caphits.

So you don't sign 3.4M Holl, and 2.0M Gustafsson on those off-seasons.

That's 5.25M less in cap space. Then there's no Kane at season before, because Hronek existed. And no Kane proably at all.

Also, Yzerman got draft picks from Hronek and used the 1st to draft Sandin Pellikka. That 2nd was traded down for Brady Cleveland + extra 5th pick Kevin Bicker.

So this Hronek-trade basicly is transferring the rebuild timeline back with 8 years, from 27-year old Hronek to 19-year old Pellikka. Plus getting some extra draft picks and opening cap space for short-term help.

ASP got to b better than hronek doesnt he?

 

[Henkka]

ASP got to b better than hronek doesnt he?

Yeah, in potential.

But development is not a 100% guarantee.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

I don't think the rebuild is lost, but if there's a criticism to be had, it's pro scouting for defense.

 

[schuelma24]

Last night really illustrated this for me - if you look at things completely dispassionately and just ignore absolute putrid state of things with the current roster, I'd argue the rebuild looks better now than it did in the summer.

-Ed not only made the leap to top 4 defender, he's playing like a legit top pair.
-Kasper is up and holding his own (I know the production isn't there yet, but I'd still call this a positive development)
- To the extent the team does well, it's basically entirely because of players who will be around in 2-3 years (though I'll admit who knows if Cat will get extended).

Then you look at the prospects and things are progressing extremely well:

- ASP is setting records in the SHL and playing 20 minutes a game.
-Cossa is at a .931 playing a heavy workload.
-Buch is performing at a historic pace in the KHL and there's now a chance he's a legit top 6 winger.
-Lombardi is rocking the AHL.
-Danielson and MBN are doing fine after admittedly slow starts.


All of this is far more important than how bad the current roster looks.

Where I agree there needs to be improvement is current pro scouting. We're about to have a ton of cap space again, and if we blow it on mediocre guys it will set things back again.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

Last night really illustrated this for me - if you look at things completely dispassionately and just ignore absolute putrid state of things with the current roster, I'd argue the rebuild looks better now than it did in the summer.

-Ed not only made the leap to top 4 defender, he's playing like a legit top pair.
-Kasper is up and holding his own (I know the production isn't there yet, but I'd still call this a positive development)
- To the extent the team does well, it's basically entirely because of players who will be around in 2-3 years (though I'll admit who knows if Cat will get extended).

Then you look at the prospects and things are progressing extremely well:

- ASP is setting records in the SHL and playing 20 minutes a game.
-Cossa is at a .931 playing a heavy workload.
-Buch is performing at a historic pace in the KHL and there's now a chance he's a legit top 6 winger.
-Lombardi is rocking the AHL.
-Danielson and MBN are doing fine after admittedly slow starts.


All of this is far more important than how bad the current roster looks.

Where I agree there needs to be improvement is current pro scouting. We're about to have a ton of cap space again, and if we blow it on mediocre guys it will set things back again.

Well, and you have to consider that this is exactly how Yzerman has said he was gonna do it.

 

[heyfolks]

Soderblom is not going back to sweden as far as i can see.
"Third season as a Griffin … Fifth year pro … Sent on loan to Tingsryd (HockeyAllsvenskan) from Frolunda J20, 1/17/20 … Signed to a two-year rookie contract by Frolunda HC (SHL), 4/3/20 … Signed to a three-year entry-level contract by Detroit, 6/9/22 ... Assigned by Detroit, 12/9/22 ... Recalled by Detroit, 12/14/22 ... Reassigned by Detroit, 1/8/23 ... Assigned by Detroit, 10/8/23 ... Assigned by Detroit, 10/6/24. "

To be more specific, next season. His contract expires at the end of the season. It may not be Sweden, but it won't be back in Detroit (unless he wants a career in GR.)

 

[TKB]

Well, and you have to consider that this is exactly how Yzerman has said he was gonna do it.

It continues to "bottle" my mind that people, including Red Wing observers, can't see this.

No guarantee it ultimately works as well as hoped, but the vision and plan are very clear, and for now at least, on track.

 

[FriendlyGhost92]

It continues to "bottle" my mind that people, including Red Wing observers, can't see this.

No guarantee it ultimately works as well as hoped, but the vision and plan are very clear, and for now at least, on track.

When they finally turn the corner it'll be, "Well it took too long!"

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

I don't think the rebuild is lost, but if there's a criticism to be had, it's pro scouting for defense.

View attachment 935956

Last year the team had 44 goals from its defensemen.

This year we have 5 in 21.

 

[saska sault]

I don't think the rebuild is lost, but if there's a criticism to be had, it's pro scouting for defense.

View attachment 935956

As tough as it is to look at everyone minus the top 2 (AlJo gets a break), it's pretty easy on the eyes to look at Mo and Simon and think at ages 21 and 23... we were lucky to get those 2 in the draft. Lottery luck sucks but so far, managment haven't missed on some really important pieces in the 1st round.

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

I don't think the rebuild is lost, but if there's a criticism to be had, it's pro scouting for defense.

View attachment 935956

It's hard for me to judge the pro scouts with Bob Boughner running both a struggling defense group and an absolutely atrocious PK. Like all these defensemen could play at other stops in their career. Suddenly they just all fell off the earth? And why is their pk so atrocious when other teams can make it work by pretty much effort alone? Maybe those are the same problem.

The way I figure, you have to let Boughner go, and that'll let you assess the situation better.

 

[Frk It]

I don't think the rebuild is lost, but if there's a criticism to be had, it's pro scouting for defense.

View attachment 935956

I thought getting rid of Hronek would be fine because we would bring in a Pesce, Montour, or Roy.

Losing Hronek and then running these guys out here is just unacceptable. We have nothing behind Mo/Ed.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I thought getting rid of Hronek would be fine because we would bring in a Pesce, Montour, or Roy.

Losing Hronek and then running these guys out here is just unacceptable. We have nothing behind Mo/Ed.

With Hronek I have to think it was timing of re-signing him more than anything.

It would've meant signing Seider, Raymond and Hronek all in one off season. And one of those things is not like the other. Hronek got an 8-year $58 million deal from Vancouver.

I think he's a good player but was 26 years old at the time and probably not someone Yzerman wanted to lock up for that long. Trading Hronek showed Stevie's hand a bit as to where he thought the Wings were in the rebuild. Because if you're close to competing you don't trade Hronek.

 

[Frk It]

With Hronek I have to think it was timing of re-signing him more than anything.

It would've meant signing Seider, Raymond and Hronek all in one off season. And one of those things is not like the other. Hronek got an 8-year $58 million deal from Vancouver.

I think he's a good player but was 26 years old at the time and probably not someone Yzerman wanted to lock up for that long. Trading Hronek showed Stevie's hand a bit as to where he thought the Wings were in the rebuild. Because if you're close to competing you don't trade Hronek.

I understand letting Hronek go. I understand replacing him with ASP (long term). I do not understand or agree that we should have not brought anyone in to help out in the here and now. Again, not in a summer where there a number of RHD available.

We are now watching our middle pair get absolutely caved in every night and it is not OK.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

ESPN writers have given the Wings a C+ this season.

This is what the writers said about the Wings. No specific writer was mentioned, so I'll include both:

Ryan S. Clark
Kristen Shilton

"What's gone right? The Red Wings have benefited from an (unexpected?) youth movement headlined by Marco Kasper, Simon Edvinsson and a (suddenly!) striking Jonatan Berggren. Kasper, 20, has been so reliable as a physical force up front that coach Derek Lalonde recently promoted him to play on a line with Patrick Kane and Alex DeBrincat. And the 21-year-old Edvinsson had been terrific patrolling Detroit's blue line before suffering a lower-body injury. The Red Wings have also received solid goaltending from offseason signee Cam Talbot (.921 SV%, 2.62 GAA) and their power play is excellent, sitting just outside the top 5 at 28.1%. Detroit is good in one-goal games, too, posting a 4-1-2 record in those outings this season.

What's gone wrong? Detroit has been so strong on the man advantage its nearly overshadowed how poor their 5-on-5 scoring is. The Red Wings are 31st in even-strength goals -- only Nashville is worse. Detroit's inability to generate offense has robbed them of too many wins already this season. The Red Wings' penalty kill is a league-worst now (66.7%), which is another constant hurdle holding them back. And, as has been the case for several years, Detroit simply can't deliver a full-team by-in on defense -- they're giving up the fourth-most shots on net (31.9 per game, fifth-most in the league), and allowing 3.15 goals against per game.


Grade: C+. Detroit is running out of excuses. The Red Wings have been maturing throughout this extended rebuild and yet the purported progress simply isn't showing. And it feels like Lalonde is increasingly closer to paying the price with his job. The Red Wings are by all accounts a quiet group, and it could be the lack of vocal veteran leadership keeping them in a rut. Captain Dylan Larkin must be the change there, and veterans like Kane, Vladimir Tarasenko and J.T. Compher can help too (some added offense from those three wouldn't hurt, either). The Red Wings have been shuffling the deck up front lately and maybe that'll help jump-start Detroit in the next quarter."

 

[Retire91]

I understand letting Hronek go. I understand replacing him with ASP (long term). I do not understand or agree that we should have not brought anyone in to help out in the here and now. Again, not in a summer where there a number of RHD available.

We are now watching our middle pair get absolutely caved in every night and it is not OK.

these are meaningless seasons written off to the rebuild. Filling in better stop gaps means people who can demand longer term which interferes with the seasons where Yzerman really will start signing. Yzerman telegraphed ad nauseam this is how the rebuild was going to be slow and through the draft..

 

[ricky0034]

Last year the team had 44 goals from its defensemen.

This year we have 5 in 21.

yeah but 22 of those 44 were from Ghost and Walman and this forum says those guys sucked and we should be glad they're gone

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I understand letting Hronek go. I understand replacing him with ASP (long term). I do not understand or agree that we should have not brought anyone in to help out in the here and now. Again, not in a summer where there a number of RHD available.

We are now watching our middle pair get absolutely caved in every night and it is not OK.

I don't exactly remember what RHD were available but I'm guessing term was an major issue in signing them. Yzerman wants relatively short term so you're not gonna get coveted players.

 

[Bench]

I don't exactly remember what RHD were available but I'm guessing term was an major issue in signing them. Yzerman wants relatively short term so you're not gonna get coveted players.

Trouba was a done deal until he veto'ed any trades. Then Roy was the play and he got a 6 year deal. After that, it was back to the bargain bin hunting for gems.

NHL free agency and contracts are a mess right now. They are great for players, no doubt, but it essentially demands you overpay people in their waning years on guaranteed contracts. And if you don't think you're competing in the next 3-4 years, you're basically swallowing that poison pill or hoping the cap keeps infinitely going up.

Like when is the last high profile free agent signing that's been made that everyone was like "That's going to be great throughout the entire contract, nice!" Those are unicorn deals. Either you get the best player available to top dollar and hope he doesn't regress in this mid 30s or you're signing B level guys hoping they exceed expectations on actually OK deals.

Yzerman has been far from perfect, so I'm not hand waving away everything, but the landscape now is honestly the least exciting era I've experienced. 10-15 year rebuilds and ho hum trade movement and free agency. Oh and about 5 year of true contender windows even if you hit everything perfectly right. Hell yeah, if that doesn't get your blood pumping, I don't know what will.

I'm honestly surprised the NHL is doing as well as it is right now. I think playoff hockey is still one of the best experiences in all of sports but everything else... ehhhhhhhh.

 

[TKB]

I don't exactly remember what RHD were available but I'm guessing term was an major issue in signing them. Yzerman wants relatively short term so you're not gonna get coveted players.

Probably Matt Roy, ended up in Washington for 7X $5.75

 

[Frk It]

these are meaningless seasons written off to the rebuild. Filling in better stop gaps means people who can demand longer term which interferes with the seasons where Yzerman really will start signing. Yzerman telegraphed ad nauseam this is how the rebuild was going to be slow and through the draft..

If it was 3 years ago, fine. We were in the playoff hunt until the very last game of the season last year.

I don't exactly remember what RHD were available but I'm guessing term was an major issue in signing them. Yzerman wants relatively short term so you're not gonna get coveted players.

Guess it comes down to if you think not doing anything is acceptable or not. I don’t. Especially after you created a hole by trading away Hronek.

Trouba was a done deal until he veto'ed any trades. Then Roy was the play and he got a 6 year deal. After that, it was back to the bargain bin hunting for gems.

NHL free agency and contracts are a mess right now. They are great for players, no doubt, but it essentially demands you overpay people in their waning years on guaranteed contracts. And if you don't think you're competing in the next 3-4 years, you're basically swallowing that poison pill or hoping the cap keeps infinitely going up.

Like when is the last high profile free agent signing that's been made that everyone was like "That's going to be great throughout the entire contract, nice!" Those are unicorn deals. Either you get the best player available to top dollar and hope he doesn't regress in this mid 30s or you're signing B level guys hoping they exceed expectations on actually OK deals.

Yzerman has been far from perfect, so I'm not hand waving away everything, but the landscape mow is honestly the least exciting era I've experienced. 10-15 year rebuilds and ho hum trade movement and free agency. Oh and about 5 year of true contender windows even if you hit everything perfectly right. Hell yeah, if that doesn't get your blood pumping, I don't know what will.

I'm honestly surprised the NHL is doing as well as it is right now. I think playoff hockey is still one of the best experiences in all of sports but everything else... ehhhhhhhh.

Make the cap higher and get rid of the lottery altogether.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Guess it comes down to if you think not doing anything is acceptable or not. I don’t. Especially after you created a hole by trading away Hronek.

I don't know about acceptable but it seems like the options are either keep Hronek and sign him for big money, which means locking up 3 players for 7 to 8 years in one off season. Trade Hronek and commit to a free agent for 6 to 7 years, which you're going to overpay in both AAV and term, so maybe it's better to keep Hronek. Or trade Hronek and sign shorter term and get the bottom of the barrel of free agency but on a timeline that better fits the window.

I think there's an argument to be made for the first two, but as far as I know there weren't really upgrades out there for the shorter term.

 

[Frk It]

I don't know about acceptable but it seems like the options are either keep Hronek and sign him for big money, which means locking up 3 players for 7 to 8 years in one off season. Trade Hronek and commit to a free agent for 6 to 7 years, which you're going to overpay in both AAV and term, so maybe it's better to keep Hronek. Or trade Hronek and sign shorter term and get the bottom of the barrel of free agency but on a timeline that better fits the window.

I think there's an argument to be made for the first two, but as far as I know there weren't really upgrades out there for the shorter term.

Well it’s frustrating for me because I expected it to be a non-issue and right now it is very much an issue.

I also don’t think the contracts we passed on would have crippled us or anything like that. Despite how much people complain about Compher/Copp/Chiarot etc, we still are sitting pretty well cap wise in the long term.