Where did Yzerman go wrong with the rebuild?

[SoupNazi]

Post in thread '[DET] F Andrew Copp signs with the Red Wings (5 years, $5.625M AAV)' Confirmed Signing with Link: - [DET] F Andrew Copp signs with the Red Wings (5 years, $5.625M AAV)

Post in thread '[DET] F Andrew Copp signs with the Red Wings (5 years, $5.625M AAV)' Confirmed Signing with Link: - [DET] F Andrew Copp signs with the Red Wings (5 years, $5.625M AAV)

Post in thread '[DET] F Andrew Copp signs with the Red Wings (5 years, $5.625M AAV)' Confirmed Signing with Link: - [DET] F Andrew Copp signs with the Red Wings (5 years, $5.625M AAV)


Post in thread '[DET] F JT Compher signs with the Red Wings (5 years, $5.1M AAV)' Confirmed Signing with Link: - [DET] F JT Compher signs with the Red Wings (5 years, $5.1M AAV)

Want me to waste more of my Sunday morning keep digging or you going to admit you're wrong?

One post calls him “50-60” point. One says “Copp will fill a 2C hole for a couple years, at which point Kasper should be ready and he slides either down to 3C or over to a 2W spot.”

Want to admit you’re wrong to spin it like this was universally loved?

 

[SirKillalot]

Let's focus on what SY needs/should do today to set the team up for the best chance(s) of success...

I think it's apparent SY needs to do something, possibly drastic, to keep the train on the tracks...

Why is it apparent that he need to do something drastic? Are you expecting to be a playoff contender with a trade? If no, then don't overreact and let the players who need to develop do that. Time is what is needed, and it need to take the time it takes.

Only lets say critique I have is signing too many fillers where to make moves now, those have to have played well enough to be part of such moves. Outside that, its about development and not results. If the results are there great bonus, but if not, stay on the path. Other fans can say whatever they want, same they did about Seider and it worked out fine. Just got to trust the process.

 

[Finnen]

Several people here said he was a #2C capable of 60-65 pts. Even last year some were saying he just has to get over his injury from the first year.

Copp at the moment 2LW.

Copp had the potential to be our 50-65 point 2C.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Why is it apparent that he need to do something drastic? Are you expecting to be a playoff contender with a trade? If no, then don't overreact and let the players who need to develop do that. Time is what is needed, and it need to take the time it takes.

Only lets say critique I have is signing too many fillers where to make moves now, those have to have played well enough to be part of such moves. Outside that, its about development and not results. If the results are there great bonus, but if not, stay on the path. Other fans can say whatever they want, same they did about Seider and it worked out fine. Just got to trust the process.

Why does a drastic move HAVE to mean making the playoffs in April 2025?

Could it not be to both improve the team in the present and future?

 

[Dotter]

At this point Yzerman needs to come out with a presser to tell us if his plan is to have a down year or if we are shooting for an incrementally better season. Not firing Laldone tells me he wants a better draft position over having a more fun winning season.

Laldone is holding this team back. I PROMISE if we get a more experienced and structured NHL coach, this team will significantly improve within a couple weeks. (the question is what coach - I'm eyeing someone not popular)

- Laldone has lost the team.

I want to know as a fan how much I should invest. Not money because I will spend it on hockey regardless, but I want to know how much emotion and time to invest. I stayed home to watch hockey instead of going out last night with the inlaws for a family dinner in Nashville. I am invested in hockey and miss other events that I could spend elsewhere.

 

[Game suspension]

Have the Wings developed any forward talent besides Larkin and Raymond ?

Why are Raz and Valeno still here FFS ?

 

[odin1981]

Have the Wings developed any forward talent besides Larkin and Raymond ?

Why are Raz and Valeno still here FFS ?

Raz and Veleno our on bridge deals to UFA. So they are relatively cheap. They will likely be let go when they hit UFA or traded on the deadline if a "buyer" is found.

 

[Hobnobs]

Raz and Veleno our on bridge deals to UFA. So they are relatively cheap. They will likely be let go when they hit UFA or traded on the deadline if a "buyer" is found.

Not sure why people hate Raz so much. He's a pretty cheap and decent third liner. Constantly shows improvemnt and is one of the few players I see actually with a competitive mind. Reminds me a lil bit of a bigger version of Homer.

 

[lilidk]

Qp

Copp at the moment 2LW.

Copp had the potential to be our 50-65 point 2C.

Copp 3lw , because our second line is Tarasenko Kasper Kane.
I like Copp as #4 center , because between our overpriced fourth liners Veleno , Rasmussen and decent value Fischer and Motte, he is the best.

Not sure why people hate Raz so much. He's a pretty cheap and decent third liner. Constantly shows improvemnt and is one of the few players I see actually with a competitive mind. Reminds me a lil bit of a bigger version of Homer.

Cheap compare to Copp , but very expensive compared to Motte. Rasmussen been better every year until now , he is a garbage

 

[odin1981]

Not sure why people hate Raz so much. He's a pretty cheap and decent third liner. Constantly shows improvemnt and is one of the few players I see actually with a competitive mind. Reminds me a lil bit of a bigger version of Homer.

I believe it's more frustration because of his frame. 6'4"+ and 230lbs+. He should be able to at least look well on a third line as a piano puller type teammate. But every year he keeps dropping down the lineup. And appears to be content with the situation. His consistency is solely in that he appears to be resigned to his emotions and doesn't battle back against them to carve out a place on the team.

If he applied some combination of determination, motivation, and defiance to his game he could very well have a spot long term. But every year for the past 2-3 it's more of the same. And further down the depth chart he goes.

 

[SirKillalot]

Why does a drastic move HAVE to mean making the playoffs in April 2025?

Could it not be to both improve the team in the present and future?

Drastic implies to improve this year. You talk about long term deal, which to me isn't drastic.
Question is who are you giving up for what?

At this point Yzerman needs to come out with a presser to tell us if his plan is to have a down year or if we are shooting for an incrementally better season. Not firing Laldone tells me he wants a better draft position over having a more fun winning season.

Laldone is holding this team back. I PROMISE if we get a more experienced and structured NHL coach, this team will significantly improve within a couple weeks. (the question is what coach - I'm eyeing someone not popular)

- Laldone has lost the team.

What makes you think Lalonde is doing something drastically different than in Tampa?
He was coaching there as well even if he didn't have the main responsibility. This fire the coach agenda right away when things goes a little worse than planned is a bad habit from fans.

Even when we were improving every year people been bitching about Lalonde without any point of view with reality.

Why are Raz and Valeno still here FFS ?

They are not liabilities. A little overpaid, especially Veleno.

Raz and Veleno our on bridge deals to UFA. So they are relatively cheap. They will likely be let go when they hit UFA or traded on the deadline if a "buyer" is found.

Raz been getting more and more praise before this season by management and also fans.
Should never been drafted 9th overall though.
We could expect a little more scoring of them, but overall idk they do alright.

 

[Hobnobs]

I believe it's more frustration because of his frame. 6'4"+ and 230lbs+. He should be able to at least look well on a third line as a piano puller type teammate. But every year he keeps dropping down the lineup. And appears to be content with the situation. His consistency is solely in that he appears to be resigned to his emotions and doesn't battle back against them to carve out a place on the team.

If he applied some combination of determination, motivation, and defiance to his game he could very well have a spot long term. But every year for the past 2-3 it's more of the same. And further down the depth chart he goes.

I can agree that I'd want him to be more aggressive out there. But he has always been very mild mannered even in juniors

 

[odin1981]

I can agree that I'd want him to be more aggressive out there. But he has always been very mild mannered even in juniors

I think with him it's more being consistent in imposing his will for the team. Maybe he just doesn't have that switch in him. I'm not expecting a Shanahan type power forward. But he should understand by now that he is a physical specimen that few can hold up against. If he would leverage that more than once a blue moon against a sub 5'10" player that isn't under 200lbs I believe he would rise. He doesn't have to be a wrecking ball like a Tom Wilson type either. But for damn sure he shouldn't be as meek as he is.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Drastic implies to improve this year. You talk about long term deal, which to me isn't drastic.
Question is who are you giving up for what?

What makes you think Lalonde is doing something drastically different than in Tampa?
He was coaching there as well even if he didn't have the main responsibility. This fire the coach agenda right away when things goes a little worse than planned is a bad habit from fans.

Even when we were improving every year people been bitching about Lalonde without any point of view with reality.

They are not liabilities. A little overpaid, especially Veleno.

Raz been getting more and more praise before this season by management and also fans.
Should never been drafted 9th overall though.
We could expect a little more scoring of them, but overall idk they do alright.

That's because you've intentionally decided it means that...

A coaching change would and should be for more than next 5 months

Adding a younger top 6 forward or youngish top 4 dman would and should be for more than the next 5 months..

Who'd I give up? Anyone and anything not named Seider, SE, Raymond or Cossa

 

[odin1981]

I can agree that I'd want him to be more aggressive out there. But he has always been very mild mannered even in juniors

A role model that he should emulate from the Wings is Holmstom. Be the silent steady type. That seems to be more his mental outlook from a distance (my PoV).

Veleno should look to be like Glendening. Understand that in both cases you aren't a star in the league. So grind it out. Have a willingness to do the things most don't. Take pride in the dedication and professionalism to become a asset instead of accepting a diminished role. Put your best foot forward and enjoy the worker's role. That's how they can keep their careers.

Or else they are a dime a dozen type player in the NHL. And sooner rather than later they will either be a AHL, SHL vet if they continue with hockey.

 

[Hobnobs]

A role model that he should emulate from the Wings is Holmstom. Be the silent steady type. That seems to be more his mental outlook from a distance (my PoV).

Veleno should look to be like Glendening. Understand that in both cases you aren't a star in the league. So grind it out. Have a willingness to do the things most don't. Take pride in the dedication and professionalism to become a asset instead of accepting a diminished role. Put your best foot forward and enjoy the worker's role. That's how they can keep their careers.

Or else they are a dime a dozen type player in the NHL. And sooner rather than later they will either be a AHL, SHL vet if they continue with hockey.

Yea, either that or Franzén. Not saying he can score as much as him. Just his style. Or a guy like Shawn Burr (RIP) or Maltby.

Veleno should just accept that offense isnt there and just immerse himself in defensive play. We have Draper in the org. Just have him effin mentoring him into it. He definitely have the tools for it.

 

[SirKillalot]

That's because you've intentionally decided it means that...

A coaching change would and should be for more than next 5 months

No a drastic change is for short time aspects.

Everyone bitching about Lalonde now was probably the same bitching about Blashill.
We didn't drastically improve after going from Blashill to Lalonde.
You know why? The playing material isn't good enough, which someone thinks we should be competitive in the playoffs. That is the overall problem, a bunch of people thinking we'd suddenly be solid after a move or two.

You don't think Blashill is coaching in Tampa? They doing fairly alright.
The issue is not the coach. The issue is this process need to take the time it needs to get the young guys up to a point where they are getting into the roster and to a point where they provide quality.
Along the way you make trades and sign people.

This isn't a good team playing bad where coaching change matter. Its a team in development where the results will vary a lot until the pieces age and gel.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

No a drastic change is for short time aspects.

Everyone bitching about Lalonde now was probably the same bitching about Blashill.
We didn't drastically improve after going from Blashill to Lalonde.
You know why? The playing material isn't good enough, which someone thinks we should be competitive in the playoffs. That is the overall problem, a bunch of people thinking we'd suddenly be solid after a move or two.

You don't think Blashill is coaching in Tampa? They doing fairly alright.
The issue is not the coach. The issue is this process need to take the time it needs to get the young guys up to a point where they are getting into the roster and to a point where they provide quality.
Along the way you make trades and sign people.

This isn't a good team playing bad where coaching change matter. Its a team in development where the results will vary a lot until the pieces age and gel.

Who says a dramtic change is simply for short-term...you?

You've convinced yourself you're right and thus every other option/suggesstion is wrong or foolish.. its not binary here whatsoever...

This is a team w/o any semblance of identity...it's not fast nor physical, it's not puck possession nor counterstrike, it's not young and energetic nor experienced and patient...

Fans who think the team should compete for a cup in 24/25 foolish...

Success dosent happen overnight nor on its own

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Convenient for you (and others) to forget or completely deny now too. Copp has gone from a 2C to a "we needed him for the salary floor" in 3 seasons. There's reasons we aren't going to get a sniff of the playoffs while going from salary floor to salary ceiling. Copp isn't the only one - just a good example.

This might not be completely Yzerman's fault. But something tells me a lot of his old Red Wing buddies that he has working for him aren't doing their jobs and/or giving him some bad advice.

Copp
Compher
Holl
Chiarot
All busts.

One post calls him “50-60” point. One says “Copp will fill a 2C hole for a couple years, at which point Kasper should be ready and he slides either down to 3C or over to a 2W spot.”

Want to admit you’re wrong to spin it like this was universally loved?

DYOR

Two posts dang. Shots fired. The other two aren't crazy, thinking Copp having a full summer and camp to train might be good for him is crazy thinking? He had 42 points his first season.

I guess camp isn't important to you tho.

Speculation: - Raymond Seider Contract Speculation

Cant see Kasper unless he has an unreal camp and I imagine Berggren makes the team as he would need to clear waivers unless there is a trade before then... that seems more likely to me. Mazur makes sense in a bottom 6 role, guess his main competition would be Watson whos on a PTO? Berggren...

forums.hfboards.com

All this is dumb shit though, we could all dig through each others posts and find stuff.

No, you guys said no one was saying it. I showed you, wasted my time. Go do your own research if you don't believe what others were saying...

 

[SirKillalot]

Who says a drastic change is simply for short-term...you?

You've convinced yourself you're right and thus every other option/suggesstion is wrong or foolish.. its not binary here whatsoever...

Yes, I am saying that.
And you have no other argument that lets fire the coach to make a "drastic change", whatever that implies to you.

There is one other version in my opinion on drastic, but I'll leave that for now.

This is a team w/o any semblance of identity...it's not fast nor physical, it's not puck possession nor counterstrike, it's not young and energetic nor experienced and patient...

According to you. I think its quite clear what kind of identity they are trying to build. That they aren't playing like what they want right now that is correct.

Fans who think the team should compete for a cup in 24/25 foolish...

Completely agree! Have no need to get to the playoffs to be playoff fodder just to make it look like fake improvement.

Success dosent happen overnight nor on its own

Absolutely!

 

[norrisnick]

No, you guys said no one was saying it. I showed you, wasted my time. Go do your own research if you don't believe what others were saying...

I made up bullshit.
I looked up posts which plainly show my initial comment was bullshit.
I will die on my hill of bullshit.

 

[Dotter]

What makes you think Lalonde is doing something drastically different than in Tampa?
He was coaching there as well even if he didn't have the main responsibility. This fire the coach agenda right away when things goes a little worse than planned is a bad habit from fans.

Laldone was an assistant coach, not a head coach in Tampa. Wings have outgrown him and I think he has literally lost the team. I think Perron's leadership was understated.

Wings had identity last season when they were clicking. They look flat, slow and uninterested. They block shots, get hurt, and still lose games they should win on paper.

I'm telling you with a 100% certainty the coach has lost the team. It's as clear as day. There's no question whatsoever that a well structured and experienced NHL coach could boost this team into something exciting and fun to watch. You will see a completely different team.

The talent is there. You will see a much faster, hard-nosed and tight checking team to play against.

If Yzerman doesn't fire Laldone in the next week or so, then he is sending a clear message that he is tanking the season for a better draft position. Might as well start selling.