When will Bouchard be considered elite?

[Regal]

As long as we agree that Barrie didn't come close to bouchs number as an Oiler. The second bouch replaced Barrie the oilers improved. And I liked Barrie but he never came close to 80 points or .ppg playoff status. Barrie got 6 points in 20 playoff games with the oilers over 2 seasons. Bouch is already at 20 after 12 or 13 games.

Bouchard is for sure much better, but Barrie was also at a 70 point pace that one year and I think he was already on the decline at that point. While I don’t agree with the first post that just any offensive defenseman could post those numbers, I also think he still showed it’s a great situation to be in for an offensive defenseman.

At the same time I think Bouchard’s skillset complements McDrai better than some other offensive defensemen as well. They don’t need someone to carry the puck in transition or dance around at the blue line. They open up enough space. Bouchard having a great first pass out of the zone, great passing in the offensive zone and one of the best blue line shots in the game is more important.

 

[Goose]

Feels like he is now where Mike Greene was around 08-09, Bouchard could go a couple of different directions with his career.

If he continues to score at a point per game (or plus) pace, he'll be in the Makar conversation regardless of his defensive play, which I think is better than some on here give him credit for.

His "casual" style leads to some glaring situations that stick out, but overall I don't he's the offensive weapon/defensive liability some have painted him as.

 

[Mr Positive]

Bouchard is for sure much better, but Barrie was also at a 70 point pace that one year and I think he was already on the decline at that point. While I don’t agree with the first post that just any offensive defenseman could post those numbers, I also think he still showed it’s a great situation to be in for an offensive defenseman.

At the same time I think Bouchard’s skillset complements McDrai better than some other offensive defensemen as well. They don’t need someone to carry the puck in transition or dance around at the blue line. They open up enough space. Bouchard having a great first pass out of the zone, great passing in the offensive zone and one of the best blue line shots in the game is more important.

Maybe there is an element to it, where you feel an elite player isn't one who plays at a high level because they fit in like a glove, but one that will play at the same level no matter what. So maybe when his numbers stay high after being separated from Ekholm, he will get more recognized as an elite.

As an Oiler fan I can say I've been a Bouchard supporter since we drafted him and had to defend him a lot, but I agree with the sentiment of the thread that something doesn't feel quite elite about him. Maybe we just need to see him do this a bit more

When I think of an elite D I imagine either an elite puck transporter like Makar, or at least like that, or a physically dominating one with offense and defense to back it up.

 

[winnipegger]

The oilers have desperately needed a real bomb from the point since Pronger left. With him and eckholm they are a cup threat. I was literally laughed at for taking him #2 in my playoff draft and who's laughing now MFs.

 

[Sniper99]

Nobody is fooled by this attempt to deflect

Look whos deflecting, you act like the Cansucks won Monday night.

 

[TheNumber4]

When Bouchard’s career is finished. He will be known as one of the all time greats. This thread, another stain HF’s record.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Bouchard proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s better than Hughes. So yeh he’s elite.

How can you say that without a doubt Bouchard is better than Q. Hughes?

 

[TheNumber4]

How can you say that without a doubt Bouchard is better than Q. Hughes?

Head to head matchup and he out played him handily. How can you not?

 

[Stephen]

The vibe I get from Bouchard is he’ll be an unsung Larry Murphy type. Not to say anything about his standalone quality (Murphy is a HHOFer) but kind of overshadowed by greater forward stars.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Head to head matchup and he out played him handily. How can you not?

I mean it's a small one series sample size. I think using that point in a debate is pretty short sited.

 

[HighAndTight]

To be fair the narrative you are spreading is exaggerated as well. Draisaitl and McDavid help each other out on the power play for sure, but I’m not convinced Draisaitl’s even strength production would be any worse without McDavid (it might actually improve). Draisaitl has already proven that he is capable of elite production with or without McDavid (see the year he won the Art Ross/Hart/Lindsay), and has looked better on most nights in these playoffs.

FYI, Draisaitl and McDavid usually play on different lines at even strength.

No my point is sound.

You've missed it. Playing on the same line as McDavid gives you the benefit of playing with McDavid, obviously.

Playing on a different line then McDavid means you draw lesser quality defenders. Not all the time or course but much more then he would if McDavid wasn't on the team.

Tangible benefits to having the best player in the world on your team.
Its the same way when Drai is hot, McDavid benefits having someone of his legitimate ability to take harder assignments or carry nights.


The difference in terms of say Crosby/Malkin, is Malkin ended up having long stretchs of carrying the team both in the regular season, playoffs and for a championship.
Drai's got a decade to prove it.

 

[TheNumber4]

I mean it's a small one series sample size. I think using that point in a debate is pretty short sited.

We have way more than that as a sample size. The entire regular season with similar production makes them close as it is. With that you can take a look at analytics which has Bouchard ahead. Add a 7 game series head to head and watch them play and it becomes apparent. Add some common sense hockey knowledge and the picture becomes clear who’s the more effective and better defenceman.

 

[Slats432]

Bouchard proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that he’s better than Hughes. So yeh he’s elite.

As an Oiler's fan, I find this comment a bit of batshit crazy.

 

[Zirakzigil]

As an Oiler's fan, I find this comment a bit of batshit crazy.

Especially considering the Oilers fanbase was ready to launch him to the moon in October.

 

[TheNumber4]

As an Oiler's fan, I find this comment a bit of batshit crazy.

Not at all. The analytics and eye test back up the fact that Bouchard is better even over a longer year long sample. The playoff series only one part (the most important part) of a year long sample.

 

[TheNumber4]

Especially considering the Oilers fanbase was ready to launch him to the moon in October.

No doubt. Myself included. That is why when Oilers fans tell you that those issues he had in October are now gone, you know it’s coming from a legitimate read of who he is now. No one wanted Bouchard to figure his defensive end more than Oilers fans, and if he hadn’t, no one would be singing his praises.

 

[Slats432]

Not at all. The analytics and eye test back up the fact that Bouchard is better even over a longer year long sample. The playoff series only one part (the most important part) of a year long sample.

Go to Twitter and type Bouchard mistake in the search box. Bouchard has had a better playoffs than Quinn Hughes. Quinn Hughes has been elite from the first day he played on NHL ice. Earlier this year most people were wondering if Bouchard could take the next step since his defense was always one dumb decision away from a -1. He has cleaned it up, playing all world for a while now.

Discussion can continue over the long term, but taking Bouchard "CLEARLY" over Hughes is stupid.

 

[TheNumber4]

Go to Twitter and type Bouchard mistake in the search box. Bouchard has had a better playoffs than Quinn Hughes. Quinn Hughes has been elite from the first day he played on NHL ice. Earlier this year most people were wondering if Bouchard could take the next step since his defense was always one dumb decision away from a -1. He has cleaned it up, playing all world for a while now.

Discussion can continue over the long term, but taking Bouchard "CLEARLY" over Hughes is stupid.

I’m well aware of Bouchard’s mistakes. All great defenceman make them. Bouchard used to make them a lot more than now but it’s much reduced. Don’t think Quinn doesn’t make them too, -11 and -24 in his first two years. He’s had growing pains too. If he doesn’t do any mistakes he’d grade out way higher analytically than Bouchard. But he doesn’t.

A year long sample plus a 7 game is enough for me. Take your time though if you want to be conservative. Doesn’t change the fact that Bouchard is better.

 

[Slats432]

I’m well aware of Bouchard’s mistakes. All great defenceman make them. Bouchard used to make them a lot more than now but it’s much reduced. Don’t think Quinn doesn’t make them too, -11 and -24 in his first two years. He’s had growing pains too. If he doesn’t do any mistakes he’d grade out way higher analytically than Bouchard. But he doesn’t.

A year long sample plus a 7 game is enough for me. Take your time though if you want to be conservative. Doesn’t change the fact that Bouchard is better.

Only biased Oilers fans will be here. If you are talking for on ice XG, corsi, fenwick, etc, Quinn Hughes numbers playing with the other fab four would be similar or better.

Like using Corsi and Fenwick and XG to prove that Kurri was better than Bossy in 1984-85. It would be nuts.

 

[Soundwave]

Omfg this narrative is damn tired. No one with a brain thinks Drai is only a product of McDavid but on the flip side people need to stop pretending that playing on the same team, let alone same line, as McDavid doesn't have tangible benefits that almost no other player receives.

It's not tired at all, there was a contingent of posters here pushing that narrative for years, now they want to pretend like no one was saying it because they know they can't keep saying it without looking like a moron.

 

[phrenssoa]

No my point is sound.

You've missed it. Playing on the same line as McDavid gives you the benefit of playing with McDavid, obviously.

Playing on a different line then McDavid means you draw lesser quality defenders. Not all the time or course but much more then he would if McDavid wasn't on the team.

Tangible benefits to having the best player in the world on your team.
Its the same way when Drai is hot, McDavid benefits having someone of his legitimate ability to take harder assignments or carry nights.


The difference in terms of say Crosby/Malkin, is Malkin ended up having long stretchs of carrying the team both in the regular season, playoffs and for a championship.
Drai's got a decade to prove it.

The benefits aren’t as tangible as you might think, especially when they are playing on different lines. McDavid being given ice time with the Oilers’ best wingers and defencemen means Draisaitl doesn’t always get that same opportunity.

But at the end of the day it sounds like you won’t give Draisaitl his due until he plays on a different team, despite what he’s accomplished with and without McDavid, so there’s no use arguing with you.

 

[Perfect_Drug]

The vibe I get from Bouchard is he’ll be an unsung Larry Murphy type. Not to say anything about his standalone quality (Murphy is a HHOFer) but kind of overshadowed by greater forward stars.

I honestly think he's Zubov.

His primary skill, is that he hits the forward with pinpoint passes in full stride.
The Canucks were so pre-occupied with trying to limit cross-seam McDavid / Draisaitl passes, they left Bouch open to lob missiles from the point.

But the Stars are gonna see for themselves. This dude is Sergei Zubov.



I'm not ready to say Bouch is better than Hughes though. The Oilers completely game-planned for Hughes, whereas the Canucks left Bouch wide open.

 

[HighAndTight]

The benefits aren’t as tangible as you might think, especially when they are playing on different lines. McDavid being given ice time with the Oilers’ best wingers and defencemen means Draisaitl doesn’t always get that same opportunity.

But at the end of the day it sounds like you won’t give Draisaitl his due until he plays on a different team, despite what he’s accomplished with and without McDavid, so there’s no use arguing with you.

Yes the benefits are tangible.

If they play on different lines McDavid draws the best shutdown line and best defensive pairing more often then Drai would. No it doesn't meant Drai is a product of McDavid but to ignore any benefit McDavid brings is as weird...

Why is this a difficult concept?

 

[TheNumber4]

Only biased Oilers fans will be here. If you are talking for on ice XG, corsi, fenwick, etc, Quinn Hughes numbers playing with the other fab four would be similar or better.

Like using Corsi and Fenwick and XG to prove that Kurri was better than Bossy in 1984-85. It would be nuts.

You assume. Based on nothing. Much of Bouchard’s numbers playing with the Oilers core is supported by his elite shot. Something Quinn can’t touch. Not to mention the higher hockey Iq and vision.

I don’t even need to use advanced stats to make my argument. Can use traditional counting stats too. Let’s see 82 points for Bouchard in regular season versus 92 for Hughes. 10 pts in post season for Hughes with 0 goals, 20 pts for Bouchard with 5 goals. So they close in the regular season but Hughes was slightly ahead. In the post season, Bouchard smoked him and post season production should far outweigh regular season. It’s what sets apart Drai from guys like Marner, and it’s what will set apart Bouch from guys like Hughes .

 

[Czechboy]

Bouchard is for sure much better, but Barrie was also at a 70 point pace that one year and I think he was already on the decline at that point. While I don’t agree with the first post that just any offensive defenseman could post those numbers, I also think he still showed it’s a great situation to be in for an offensive defenseman.

At the same time I think Bouchard’s skillset complements McDrai better than some other offensive defensemen as well. They don’t need someone to carry the puck in transition or dance around at the blue line. They open up enough space. Bouchard having a great first pass out of the zone, great passing in the offensive zone and one of the best blue line shots in the game is more important.

I agree with all of it except 70 point pace... you don't need pace arguments for a guy who's been playing over a decade. You can just look at his boxcars.

Eg. In preseason I argued that Bouch's pace since the Barrie trade was around 70 points. So I said I thought he'd get 60 to 70 points in preseason based on a smaller sample size. I got eviscerated for that.

Barrie was a very good 40 to 50 point offensive Dman.

That Covid year also saw Nurse's total spike and get that awesome contract everyone loves so much.lol Also saw the Habs in the cup final. Strange year.