When Was the Last Time

[RedWingsNow*]

When was the last time you thought Mike Babcock outcoached the other coach in playoff series?

We keep talking about Babcock being the best, or one of the best..


And, please, if you're going to say it's "all about the players," then why even bother saying "Babcock is a great coach," if coaches only matter when you win?

 

[Heaton]

When was the last time you thought Mike Babcock outcoached the other coach in playoff series?

We keep talking about Babcock being the best, or one of the best..


And, please, if you're going to say it's "all about the players," then why even bother saying "Babcock is a great coach," if coaches only matter when you win?

Define outcoaching please, because without some baseline to go off of the entire idea is all extremely subjective.

 

[Shoalzie]

Michel Therrien in the first Wings-Pens comes to mind...that might've been as much of a case of Therrien self-destructing.

 

[PullHard]

Mike's made some bad calls this year...

-Abby being forced into something he isn't
-Players playing special teams repeatedly, despite failing in those situations often
-Guys like Tatar and Nyquist not given confidence by Babs until way later than they should've been (Tatar is still waiting)
-Guys like Lash playing way too many minutes. I get we were thin, so keep him in a limited role on the 6th pair. Don't play the guy with Kronner for 1/3rd of the season.

I could go on.

But Holland needs to be called in to attention, as well. It isn't exactly like Babs has a ton to work with on this team.

edit: last time you ask? hmmmmm, probably '09. Or vs. Coyotes in '11. And I think he did well against Sharks in '11, too. We just didn't have the roster, really.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Define outcoaching please, because without some baseline to go off of the entire idea is all extremely subjective.

Where Mike Babcock coached better than the other guy

That's all I got

Basically looking for a series where you were extremely impressed with Babcock's adjustments/lineup changes/strategies and credit them for the outcome

 

[Heaton]

Where Mike Babcock coached better than the other guy

That's all I got

Right, but couldn't you say that every time a coach won a series they outcoached the other guy? I don't really get the point, normally when a coach's players play better than the other team they win. Sometimes it has to do with coaching decisions, sometimes the coach's team is just better.

I think if another team's coach makes adjustments to counter what the other team is doing you could consider that outcoaching. Like when last year the Preds stood up our forwards and gave us nothing. I think Babcock could've adjusted better.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Right, but couldn't you say that every time a coach won a series they outcoached the other guy? I don't really get the point, normally when a coach's players play better than the other team they win. Sometimes it has to do with coaching decisions, sometimes the coach's team is just better.

I think if another team's coach makes adjustments to counter what the other team is doing you could consider that outcoaching. Like when last year the Preds stood up our forwards and gave us nothing. I think Babcock could've adjusted better.

Right, so it's NOT always the coaching.

But sometimes the coaching really stands out.

A lot of coaching is the day-to-day process building. How do you measure that in a 7-game series?
You don't

 

[Yemack]

when was the last time he was outcoached then?

 

[Actual Thought*]

I would say the fact that the Wings are still in this series means that Babs has outcoached Boudreau. Boudreau has a much better roster to work with yet the games have been very tight. IMHO Bab's is getting everything out of this roster that it has to give.

 

[Heaton]

Right, so it's NOT always the coaching.

But sometimes the coaching really stands out.

A lot of coaching is the day-to-day process building. How do you measure that in a 7-game series?
You don't

I think coaching gets too much credit and too much blame. Obviously a bad coach get really hurt a team, but for the most part a coach is only as good as the team they have. You'll have situations where teams just find a way to turn it on for a while, but it usually isn't sustainable. I think Babcock is a good coach because he's been able to keep this team at a high level for a long time while we had great players and great teams. I think Barry Trotz is a really good coach. I don't get into the 'best' coach nonsense but I think in the league today it's all about the players and less about the coaching.

 

[Fugu]

I think Therrien comes to mind as well, like Shoalzie said.

when was the last time he was outcoached then?

I think Todd McLellan has managed to do a good job of finding his mentor's weaknesses. Bylsma in 2009, Canucks always gave the Wings fits, and the Ducks under Carlyle were usually quite the handful (when we had an elite team as well). Hawks and Wings seemed closer in the past few years (vs the current year), probably due to them using very similar styles. Tippet is another coach that I think does a good job of creating problems for the Wings.

Edit: Trotz, after seeing Heater mention him. Very good at putting together competitive teams with very young rosters, scrap pieces, etc. They do have a good draft/development record in Nashville.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I'd say he was outcoached by Coach no-neck this year, and by coach McLellan.

And not that I think the Ducks coach is awesome or anything, but...it's Babcock's lines and roster decisions haven't helped this team this series.

Glad that Lashoff is gone. But maybe the damage is done.

Also... Cory Emmerton has been a giant liability at center this series, because of his faceoffs.

Why not try Bertuzzi with Datsyuk and CLEAN UP our 4th line center issue?

 

[Winger98]

I give Babcock a lot of credit for getting the Wings through the past couple of seasons, and into the playoffs, despite a host of setbacks (injuries, player turnover, etc.). I think he and the Wings have made some definite mistakes - such as not moving prospects into the lineup when they should - and I'm not always thrilled with Babcock's approach, but it's been damn effective. Not sure how to judge him outcoaching someone in a series, though a bit of that might be my old man memory failing me.

 

[Heaton]

I'd say he was outcoached by Coach no-neck this year, and by coach McLellan.

And not that I think the Ducks coach is awesome or anything, but...it's Babcock's lines and roster decisions haven't helped this team this series.

Glad that Lashoff is gone. But maybe the damage is done.

Also... Cory Emmerton has been a giant liability at center this series, because of his faceoffs.

Why not try Bertuzzi with Datsyuk and CLEAN UP our 4th line center issue?

I think last game had to do with only getting 1 shot on the 5 minute powerplay. I know the Wings PP has been crappy this year for the most part, but when your big guns aren't able to even get into the zone and set up or get shots I don't know what a coach is supposed to do. Drawing up plays only works if the players can execute them.

 

[Fugu]

We're going off what CB is asking though.

Who are the other elite coaches in the NHL?

Have the Wings faced them and how did they fare? Did our guy out-do the other guy?

 

[Heaton]

I think Therrien comes to mind as well, like Shoalzie said.




I think Todd McLellan has managed to do a good job of finding his mentor's weaknesses. Bylsma in 2009, Canucks always gave the Wings fits, and the Ducks under Carlyle were usually quite the handful (when we had an elite team as well). Hawks and Wings seemed closer in the past few years (vs the current year), probably due to them using very similar styles. Tippet is another coach that I think does a good job of creating problems for the Wings.

Edit: Trotz, after seeing Heater mention him. Very good at putting together competitive teams with very young rosters, scrap pieces, etc. They do have a good draft/development record in Nashville.

It's an interesting concept. I think Blysma got badly outcoached last year against the Flyers.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I think coaching gets too much credit and too much blame. .

Then why doggedly defend a coach?

This is why, IMO, coaches are disposable after a certain number of years.

 

[Heaton]

Then why doggedly defend a coach?

This is why, IMO, coaches are disposable after a certain number of years.

I defend him because I think he gets too much blame. You don't see me going around praising him all the time, do you?

 

[Bench]

I'd call Hitchcock, Tippett, and Babcock the best defensive coaches in the NHL. How well you think that works is another story.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

I think last game had to do with only getting 1 shot on the 5 minute powerplay. I know the Wings PP has been crappy this year for the most part, but when your big guns aren't able to even get into the zone and set up or get shots I don't know what a coach is supposed to do. Drawing up plays only works if the players can execute them.

Misleading.
We hit 1 or 2 posts.
And it was only 4 minutes, because Babcock inexplicably put out Eaves and Emmerton... in a move that is indefensible.

The problem is that we're running the Nick Lidstrom/Brian Rafalski/Tomas Holmstrom powerplay, when those guys are all gone.

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[aar000n]

when he coached the Ducks and they swept us.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

The Pens kind of self destructed in the last cup win, but I guess you could give him that one. He absolutely bent Quenneville over the series before that. But it has been a little while. When they power bombed the Coyotes the second go round a lot of people might not be looking at that as coaching but the way they dismantled a team coached by a guy I really respect without Zetterberg in the lineup might also be up for this. The Coyotes couldn't get Yandle away from Datsyuk to save their life.

The obvious one would be the entire Ducks run before he got here, but I think that is being a little mean. You can significantly outcoach the other team with more talent it just rarely gets noticed as you expect them to win. It doesn't mean he didn't do an exceptional job of preparing and making it look more lopsided.

 

[Yemack]

Misleading.
We hit 1 or 2 posts.
And it was only 4 minutes, because Babcock inexplicably put out Eaves and Emmerton... in a move that is indefensible.

The problem is that we're running the Nick Lidstrom/Brian Rafalski/Tomas Holmstrom powerplay, when those guys are all gone.

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yeah but then he managed to put out the guys who scored 2 goals for Wings. In the end, lost the game 3-2 in OT to a team who had alot more tools than us obviously.

I keep telling you to look at the forest. You keep saying a tree is the forest.

 

[Bench]

The problem is that we're running the Nick Lidstrom/Brian Rafalski/Tomas Holmstrom powerplay, when those guys are all gone.

That's a fair critic. It's also why I am so adamant the team needs a real point weapon outside of Kronwall. Kindl and Smith haven't cut it, and don't get me started in the forwards trying.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Misleading.
We hit 1 or 2 posts.
And it was only 4 minutes, because Babcock inexplicably put out Eaves and Emmerton... in a move that is indefensible.

The problem is that we're running the Nick Lidstrom/Brian Rafalski/Tomas Holmstrom powerplay, when those guys are all gone.

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This points more to our depth on a five minuter PP you should see a third unit, it is just that ours stinks. But even the Ducks sent out Etem and basically a third line on theirs the other night, it is long enough you usually have to do that and most teams will.