When Was the Last Time

[Heaton]

Misleading.
We hit 1 or 2 posts.
And it was only 4 minutes, because Babcock inexplicably put out Eaves and Emmerton... in a move that is indefensible.

The problem is that we're running the Nick Lidstrom/Brian Rafalski/Tomas Holmstrom powerplay, when those guys are all gone.

---

The first two units could barley get into the zone and when they were it was one and done since the passing was beyond brutal. Datsyuk had a rough game in that regard and while I'd love to blame the ice both teams had to play on it.

But back on topic I think the term outcoached gets thrown around a little bit because we don't want to say our players were outplayed. Players aren't robots, they're not told what to do and just execute it, especially guys like Datsyuk and Z. They play within the system, obviously, but they are given free reign to make decisions because they usually make good decisions. Take for instance during the cup runs in '08 and '09 when they were on a 5 on 3, Babcock was smart enough to let Z, Kronwall and Lidstrom discuss what to do.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

That's a fair critic. It's also why I am so adamant the team needs a real point weapon outside of Kronwall. Kindl and Smith haven't cut it, and don't get me started in the forwards trying.

Kindl's best part of his game is the PP -- if you're going with the Blast from the Point strategy, he's awesome

Give him time with the first unit.

Right now, he's had a bunch of time with the second unit -- and not even that anymore.

Kronwall and Smith are dangerous on the PP because of their skating. They dart in and out of the slot

So if those are your guys, build a strategy that works for that -- alot more movement and guys diving in from the point (as others cover for them)

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Really wish he would use his timeouts better, that is one area Babcock seems clueless compared to his peers.

 

[Actual Thought*]

Babcock's NHL record is 421-216-101.
Babcock's Red Wing record is 352-154-68
He has been to the cup final 3 times.
He has won the stanley cup.
He has won olympic gold. Apparently he outcoaches the other guy about twice as often as he gets outcoached.
He is a good coach.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The first two units could barley get into the zone and when they were it was one and done since the passing was beyond brutal. Datsyuk had a rough game in that regard and while I'd love to blame the ice both teams had to play on it.

But back on topic I think the term outcoached gets thrown around a little bit because we don't want to say our players were outplayed. Players aren't robots, they're not told what to do and just execute it, especially guys like Datsyuk and Z. They play within the system, obviously, but they are given free reign to make decisions because they usually make good decisions. Take for instance during the cup runs in '08 and '09 when they were on a 5 on 3, Babcock was smart enough to let Z, Kronwall and Lidstrom discuss what to do.

Once again, you've put this entirely on the players.
And that's fine.

You don't think coaching matters much.

I think lines and lineups matter
I think strategy matters. Line matching strategies matter. (some teams lose their own gameplan trying to match lines, for example).

Putting Franzen at center, for example, was a great move -- reignited Franzen to a certain extent.

 

[Heaton]

Once again, you've put this entirely on the players.
And that's fine.

You don't think coaching matters much.

I think lines and lineups matter
I think strategy matters. Line matching strategies matter. (some teams lose their own gameplan trying to match lines, for example).

Putting Franzen at center, for example, was a great move -- reignited Franzen to a certain extent.

I don't put it entirely on the players, I think it's 70% players, 30% strategy/schemes.

 

[Fugu]

Babcock's NHL record is 421-216-101.
Babcock's Red Wing record is 352-154-68
He has been to the cup final 3 times.
He has won the stanley cup.
He has won olympic gold. Apparently he outcoaches the other guy about twice as often as he gets outcoached.
He is a good coach.

I'd give more credit to Lidstrom, Datsyuk et al for that record than him to be honest.


I remember a CBJ beat writer once saying he and his colleague could coach that Wings' line-up to the second round. After that, it might get dicey. I figured I could do the same.

 

[Heaton]

I'd give more credit to Lidstrom, Datsyuk et al for that record than him to be honest.


I remember a CBJ beat writer once saying he and his colleague could coach that Wings' line-up to the second round. After that, it might get dicey. I figured I could do the same.

Do you feel the same way about Scotty's records?

 

[Bench]

Do you feel the same way about Scotty's records?

Goaltending argument all over again. Every all-time wins leader played on stacked teams. Coaches, same deal.

 

[Heaton]

Goaltending argument all over again. Every all-time wins leader played on stacked teams. Coaches, same deal.

Yup. Scotty had the best talent any coach has ever had in the history of the game. He also used that talent the best way any coach could.

 

[Fugu]

Do you feel the same way about Scotty's records?

Nope. Scotty designed those teams and systems.

 

[norrisnick]

Nope. Scotty designed those teams and systems.

The systems maybe... the key components were there before Bowman showed up. Not sure you could cook up many systems that wouldn't work if you had Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, etc... to work with.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

The systems maybe... the key components were there before Bowman showed up. Not sure you could cook up many systems that wouldn't work if you had Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, etc... to work with.

Dave Lewis and Bryan Murray tried and failed. Though Lewis never had Konstantinov.

 

[norrisnick]

Dave Lewis and Bryan Murray tried and failed. Though Lewis never had Konstantinov.

Scotty didn't win it every season. I firmly believe Bowman is the best coach hockey has ever seen. So, lets get that out of the way at the hop. Just seems silly give him credit for winning with great players and less so to other coaches that won with great players.

 

[Heaton]

Nope. Scotty designed those teams and systems.

I think that's picking and choosing though. Without Babcock's approach, the Wings weren't succeeding. It took a mix of what was and what he brought to get the Wings back to championship material. The players were where it was at for sure though. But Scotty had Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Lemieux etc... to help 'design' those systems. It's not like he was working with Phoenix Coyote rosters.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

Scotty didn't win it every season. I firmly believe Bowman is the best coach hockey has ever seen. So, lets get that out of the way at the hop. Just seems silly give him credit for winning with great players and less so to other coaches that won with great players.

Scott was the best coach I ever saw, as far as I can tell, anyway.
He just had an air about him... something beyond confident. Babcock is confident, in his own way..but it's not believable. It sounds like Babcock is full of **** most of the time.

Bowman... I could barely understand what the hell he was talking about. But he exuded true authority.
Even when you didn't understand Bowman, it was difficult to question him.

 

[Fugu]

I think that's picking and choosing though. Without Babcock's approach, the Wings weren't succeeding. It took a mix of what was and what he brought to get the Wings back to championship material. The players were where it was at for sure though. But Scotty had Yzerman, Lidstrom, Fedorov, Lemieux etc... to help 'design' those systems. It's not like he was working with Phoenix Coyote rosters.

And even with Lids et al. as soon as he left, the team got really stale, predictable very quickly. I think you're underestimating those little tweaks and matchings Scotty could do on the fly. Man is a genius.

Babs is very good, and is better with established/older players, but he's not in the same echelon as Scotty. The true test would have been how he did with that roster w/o Bowman around as a consultant. We've discussed this before, but Babs wanted to chuck the system entirely when he got here and was told by Holland he'd have to accept it.

 

[Fugu]

The systems maybe... the key components were there before Bowman showed up. Not sure you could cook up many systems that wouldn't work if you had Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Konstantinov, etc... to work with.

Yes, but how many years of great players did the Wings have before they actually won the Cup? The NHL was different in those days as well, but Bowman knew exactly what was needed to take it to the next level. Imho.

 

[norrisnick]

Yes, but how many years of great players did the Wings have before they actually won the Cup? The NHL was different in those days as well, but Bowman knew exactly what was needed to take it to the next level. Imho.

And Babcock did no work at all recrafting a system to win in '08? Nevermind that he did so in a cap era with nowhere near the raw amount of talent that Scotty had to work with. I'm guessing our complaints of lines and matchups would be far fewer if we could run Yzerman, Fedorov, Larionov, and Draper down the middle...

 

[SirloinUB]

Short answer to your question: several times this season.


Long answer:

Its funny.

We talk about how ****** Coliacovo, Emmerton, Abdelkader, White, Lashoff, Cleary are.

I always here our defense is weak.

Ive seen posts talking about our average (at best) starter

I read daily, how inconsistent Franzen, Filpulla, Kindl, Smith, Kronwall are.

Ive seen posts claiming Zetterberg and Datsyuk are the only legitimately good players on this team.

Apparently we don't use our talented kids enough.


and despite all of the above we made the playoffs. Coaching played a huge role in that! Babcock built a system that turned our awful defense in too a team that finished top 5 in GA/Game. Very few coaches could have done that with this team.


So you ask: when was the last time babcock out-coached the other team? How about the numerous times we went to a shootout against a fastly superior Hawks team? Or our multiple wins against the ducks, Canucks, Sharks, Kings, and st. louis.

 

[golffuul]

I give Babs and Holland a major pass, this year. They felt that they had Suter as a FA, this summer. Losing Stuart, Lidstrom, Holmstrom, and Hudler in one year is a lot for any team. That they actually made it into the Playoffs is enough for me to give them both a pass. Now....next year....no.

 

[vladdy16]

First of all, Bowman coached for decades and decades before he even got here, so there's no comparison to be made.

On topic. I really admire Babcocks tenacity and commitment. Day in and day out, he's executing his plan in a precise and organized manner.

However I believe his plan has weakened our roster considerably, and it messed up the layers of talent in the organization. I also believe he overwhelms himself in his own work ethic and becomes short sighted from a managerial stand point, and his in game adaptability/gutsiness are big weaknesses. His round hole square peg syndrome is off the charts. He doesn't double check his work nearly enough.

Fugu's point about Bowman insuring that some of the Red Wings systems stayed in tact after Babcock got here is really interesting. Since then, the transition to Babcocks system has been a step backwards for sure, and I don't know if many people are actually counting on that transition ever getting to phase two.

Interesting topic for sure, I hate being negative on game day, so I'm gonna go bump the GDT.

 

[norrisnick]

First of all, Bowman coached for decades and decades before he even got here, so there's no comparison to be made.

On topic. I really admire Babcocks tenacity and commitment. Day in and day out, he's executing his plan in a precise and organized manner.

However I believe his plan has weakened our roster considerably, and it messed up the layers of talent in the organization. I also believe he overwhelms himself in his own work ethic and becomes short sighted from a managerial stand point, and his in game adaptability/gutsiness are big weaknesses. His round hole square peg syndrome is off the charts. He doesn't double check his work nearly enough.

Fugu's point about Bowman insuring that some of the Red Wings systems stayed in tact after Babcock got here is really interesting. Since then, the transition to Babcocks system has been a step backwards for sure, and I don't know if many people are actually counting on that transition ever getting to phase two.

Interesting topic for sure, I hate being negative on game day, so I'm gonna go bump the GDT.

Has less to do with either coach's system and more to do with the overall skill level on the roster, IMO.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Define outcoaching please, because without some baseline to go off of the entire idea is all extremely subjective.

Tell me the last time a #7 seed Wings team beat a #2 seed in the playoffs. That seems like a pretty good baseline.

We didn't in 1990-91 when Bryan Murray was coaching the team. You have to go all the way back to Sid Abel when he coached the team in 1965-66. Back then you win one series and you are in the Stanley Cup Finals.

This team isn't good. Unfortunately Babcock doesn't assemble the roster. We've taken 3 of the first 5 games to OT. We've been competitive, the Ducks just have far more talent. Why was Bruce Boudreau fired in Washington but finished #2 in the Western Conference this year? It's Jimmy and Joes not X's and O's. RJ Umberger said everything that needed to be said about those Caps teams.

 

[RedWingsNow*]

does anyone think our roster is that worse than Anaheim's?
I mean...their defense isn't all that hot

Datsyuk Getzlaf
Zetterberg perry
Franzen Ryan
Flip Koivu
Brunner Selanne