When to extend Byfield?

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When to extend Byfield?

  • During season

    Votes: 18 27.7%
  • After season

    Votes: 47 72.3%

  • Total voters
    65
I don’t think PLD is a top line center, neither is Danault. If byfield keeps this up and as a natural center, I think he needs to play center because I don’t think anyone else can once the Kopitar days are over. Byfield is going to determine if the Kings crater after Kopitar or will be just fine without him.

What type of team do you expect the Kings to have after Kopitar’s final season? How do they not crater? That typically happens with teams who trade so many 1st rounders and young assets trying to win now.

The Kings are very likely going to have multiple high 1st rounders in the seasons after Kopitar (and Doughty) hang it up. That will be where you hopefully find your Matthews, MacKinnon, Hughes type center to lead the next era. Not from what will be a 24 year old who’s been a winger the previous 3-4 seasons.
 
I don’t think PLD is a top line center, neither is Danault. If byfield keeps this up and as a natural center, I think he needs to play center because I don’t think anyone else can once the Kopitar days are over. Byfield is going to determine if the Kings crater after Kopitar or will be just fine without him.
Byfield will be 23 when Kopitar's contract ends in July of 2026. 2 years and 11 months younger than when the Kings brought in Fiala, who I know you like.

Byfield's youth/prime won't be wasted if the Kings take some time to bring in a center, either through trades or draft/development.

I don't want the Kings to be like Montreal, either. But if Byfield grows into a very good 1 LW (not even saying a star here), I can't subscribe to the notion that it's all a waste.
 
If the Kings don’t try to put Byfield in a center role by next season then this entire thing would have been a big waste of time.
Yeah, Kempe just be the gold star standard example on why you shouldn't waste time on a player.
 
Never change hf 😂

There have been numerous players over the years who have been criticized on these forums for a lack of game sense.

From guys in the Top 5 I can remember...

Johnson, Fantilli, Bogosian, Slafkovsky, Hall, Yakupov, JVR

But now another player drafted that high is criticized for this and it's automatically assumed to be racism? Isn't it just more likely that fans are critical of IQ for players based on their observations, the same way they are critical of things like skating, size, scoring touch.

How come there wasn't any questioning of Seth Jones game sense if there is racism permeating these forums?
 
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But now another player drafted that high is criticized for this and it's automatically assumed to be racism?
No. Racism as a discussed underlying cause when an independent scouting service heaped nothing but praise on the top-5 white guys and had a laundry list of deficiencies for the one black guy by the same service. And because of that, it may have planted a seed with non-inherently racist people that his hockey IQ is a problem among other things. This has been outlined multiple times in the thread.

We don't just say "racism" when a black person gets criticized. But we question the bias of a writer/editor who put a questionable dichotomy of reports and how it may have influenced others.
How come there wasn't any questioning of Seth Jones game sense if there is racism permeating these forums?
Was the one black dude in the top-5 given a different undertone of reports compared to the 4 white dudes?
 
KP,

Maybe those complaints are valid? I really don't think the kid processes the game well enough to be a C and think he is much better geared towards the wing, am I a racist too? Or is it just what myself and others are seeing?

Again, you can't possibly say that white prospects have not been criticized for many flaws (including game sense) over the years. But the second it's a black kid it has racist undertones?

You don't think that the fact that the Kings moved him to winger and the fact that he's been much better as a winger gives validation to those views that people had?
 
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KP,

Maybe those complaints are valid? I really don't think the kid processes the game well enough to be a C and think he is much better geared towards the wing, am I a racist too? Or is it just what myself and others are seeing?
You're intentionally derailing the topic after it's been said multiple times that nobody here thinks anyone else here is racist for criticizing Byfield. We gave specific history and context to why it was brought up. Do you think there's no racism in the league? Or can you accept a possibility there was a racial bias in a report that may have planted a seed in common discourse before people could see him play live, consequently causing questions of his hockey IQ to be overblown?

And I'm not even saying all people were influenced by it. I don't even think all people who question his IQ are racists. It's pretty sad that this has to be repeated, but here we are. I disagree with certain questions of his IQ and game sense, and guess what? I think he's a better winger than center, too. His combination of size, reach, speed, and strength will make him a menace if he continues to put it all together.
Again, you can't possibly say that white prospects have not been criticized for many flaws (including game sense) over the years. But the second it's a black kid it has racist undertones?
In the context I provided, multiple times, it was questioned in an entire thread before Byfield was drafted. Are you ignoring that we're talking about a report that listed NO criticisms of the other top-5 players but Byfield was a walking precautionary tale in this report.
 
Or can you accept a possibility there was a racial bias in a report that may have planted a seed in common discourse before people could see him play live, consequently causing questions of his hockey IQ to be overblown?
There's a very good analogy to this actually now that I think about it. Years ago a report came out from a scientist that stated vaccines can cause autism. Many many years later, the scientist said his data was not real and the report was made up. That made no difference to the people who believed it though. There wasn't a wholesale dismissal of that claim and it's one that persists to this day.

Similarly, the Hockey IQ thing gets presented as a "fact" way early on, years later he shows it to NOT be the case, and people will still cling to that narrative because "he's not playing C". Yes, in this particular instance, I'm using Herby as an example (but that is just for the purposes of this post.). But it's important to point it out.

Herby isn't automatically a racist for holding these feelings, but if the Hockey IQ complaint was created due to racial bias from someone, often times we have a hard time stepping away from our opinions on the matter no matter how honest and true our belief is to really examine it. Herby can strongly believe that Byfield has poor IQ to play center and it can have nothing to do with his race. That doesn't mean the initial discussion and reports weren't couched in it from others.
 
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KP,

Maybe those complaints are valid? I really don't think the kid processes the game well enough to be a C and think he is much better geared towards the wing, am I a racist too? Or is it just what myself and others are seeing?

Again, you can't possibly say that white prospects have not been criticized for many flaws (including game sense) over the years. But the second it's a black kid it has racist undertones?

You don't think that the fact that the Kings moved him to winger and the fact that he's been much better as a winger gives validation to those views that people had?

Your complaints are valid. Others' complaints here are valid.

There is significant evidence that several other posts and authors whose comments colored the initial discourse were questionably intentioned at very best and a dive into their histories showed some significant evidence of racism.

That's it. You don't have to believe it. But constantly aggressively railing against it isn't helping anyone or anything.
 
Re: the winger thing--I think you can make the argument both ways. Think of how many times over the years we've complained about overdrafting centers and their inability to convert to wing. Now we're going to compare the guy that COULD do it to Jack Johnson?

I can see where you're coming from to some degree if you're evaluating last year, but even then, we saw a dude move up to play with skilled players and SUDDENLY AND DRAMATICALLY amplify their production as well as do everything but score himself.

This year, he's there again--but he is the line driver and way up with them in production. On the first line of one of the most dominant teams in the league.

I don't see how you can look at a guy with that trajectory who by even the biggest critics' honest looks has improved leaps and bounds in his play and give him the same "all the tools but no toolbox" label.
 
I don't see how you can look at a guy with that trajectory who by even the biggest critics' honest looks has improved leaps and bounds in his play and give him the same "all the tools but no toolbox" label.
When I hear that label I think of Dustin Brown. I know that's over the top, but I mean...it's just what I see. Byfield has always LOOKED more talented than Dustin Brown to me. I've just always questioned whether he had that moxie that Brown had. No matter how often that toe drag failed, you knew he'd do it again the next time down the ice hoping it would work.
 
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There's a lot of scouting reports, but if anyone has a link to the one being discussed, I'd be curious to read it. If the report says he has a crappy shot, doesn't move well, slow foot speed, timid, poor skater, then yes, I'll lean more towards the author had some shady intentions. But if it's just hockey sense, reading plays, executing plays, positioning, those are legitimate... rather were legitimate.

He wasn't even the consensus #2 pick. I think I saw him rated as low as 6th in some rankings which means there were aspects of his game that some were unsure of. Seeing as he has size, power, speed, skating, skill and agility, it certainly wasn't anything tool wise.

I've watched his WJC games and there was a clear difference between him and his peer group of Lafreniere and Stutzle. I've watched almost all of his AHL and all of his NHL games. I've mentioned several examples of what I felt where hockey IQ related.

I'm with Herby in that I don't see why it couldn't just be a valid area of concern and nothing more than that.

I don't believe at all that any criticisms of his hockey sense were unfounded and I can 100% see why they were made to begin with. He has god-given physical attributes and skill yet it was how he executed plays that held him back. It was something I noticed more than just a few times. I've commented that plays seem to simply die on his stick.

That being said, it could 1000% be him just needing time to adjust to the pace of higher levels of hockey. And should he continue to perform as he has been this season, it'll be crystal clear that he just needed that time. Certainly wouldn't be the first for a player.
 
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There's a lot of scouting reports, but if anyone has a link to the one being discussed, I'd be curious to read it. If the report says he has a crappy shot, doesn't move well, slow foot speed, timid, poor skater, then yes, I'll lean more towards the author had some shady intentions. But if it's just hockey sense, reading plays, executing plays, positioning, those are legitimate... rather were legitimate.

He wasn't even the consensus #2 pick. I think I saw him rated as low as 6th in some rankings which means there were aspects of his game that some were unsure of. Seeing as he has size, power, speed, skating, skill and agility, it certainly wasn't anything tool wise.

I've watched his WJC games and there was a clear difference between him and his peer group of Lafreniere and Stutzle. I've watched almost all of his AHL and all of his NHL games. I've mentioned several examples of what I felt where hockey IQ related.

I'm with Herby in that I don't see why it couldn't just be a valid area of concern and nothing more than that.

I don't believe at all that any criticisms of his hockey sense were unfounded and I can 100% see why they were made to begin with. He has god-given physical attributes and skill yet it was how he executed plays that held him back. It was something I noticed more than just a few times. I've commented that plays seem to simply die on his stick.

That being said, it could 1000% be him just needing time to adjust to the pace of higher levels of hockey. And should he continue to perform as he has been this season, it'll be crystal clear that he just needed that time. Certainly wouldn't be the first for a player.

The thing for me is, I've been posting at this forum for over two decades, in that time there have been so many players who have had their hockey IQ questioned that you couldn't even reasonably put a number on it. I already mentioned a few of them, but there are so many more, Top 5 picks, 1st rounders, 2nd rounders, mid round picks, UDFA from college. So if 345 players are given this label by fans on these forums, we decide to make it an issue with player 346 because of the color of his skin?

Furthermore, you look at a player like Seth Jones, another black player who was picked in the Top 5. Where is the criticism of Seth Jones game-sense? In fact, it's quite the opposite, Jones hockey-IQ was universally considered to be a strength of his by everyone, (while lack of physicality and ceiling concerns caused him to "fall" to #4 in the draft). If there is a bias to unfairly labeling black players with poor game-sense/hockey IQ, why was it not applied to Seth Jones, who at the time was projected to be the highest drafted black player, and ended up being tied with Evander Kane. Nobody seemed to want to address the Seth Jones stuff earlier in the thread but maybe now. What made Seth Jones above the racist bias that is shown on this forum to black players and hockey-IQ?

I know people will say the move to wing was for other reasons, and maybe it was, but the facts are when a C at lower levels switches to wing at the NHL level it's almost always because teams don't believe the player can handle all the duties that come with being a center at the NHL level. I am pretty sure that is what happened here with the Kings. And that is fine, I credit the Kings for not forcing the square peg and trying to make him something he won't be successful at when he can be a good winger and has clearly shown that.
 
Are you kidding me?

I'm done.

You didn't address it. You compared it to the other players in the draft. Is it just possible that he had the weakest hockey IQ out of those players? Does what has happened in the 3 years since mean anything?

I'm just having a hard time understanding how if there is a bias against black players and their hockey IQ why it was never brought up with the previously highest drafted black player? In fact it was the opposite, his hockey IQ was praised as his biggest strength, and it turned out to be true, Jones is a very high-IQ player . So there wasn't bias and racism in 2013 but there was in 2020?

Seth Jones knock was that his ceiling was limited and he might not be the superstar d-man you expect out of a d-man you might take top 1-3 in the draft. Similar to white player Matty Beniers, diff position but same strengths and weaknesses.

Byfield's knock was that his hockey IQ might be to weak to be a high-end #1 center you take top 1-3 in the draft. Similar to white player Jack Johnson, diff position but same strengths and weaknesses.

Both things ended up being true, Jones never developed into a superstar Norris Caliber d-man and Byfield was moved to wing in his third pro-season. So turns out the racist concerns in the scouting reports were right.
 
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Realistically... He could probably play center right now and be totally fine (or potentially even very good).

It seems a lot of people are basing his 'inability to play center' on the fact that he was underwhelming as a center as a 19/20 year old. What we saw from 19/20 year old QB at center is not the end all be all when it comes to the player's ability / future (It feels silly to even have to say that). He'd likely look MUCH better down the middle now as his confidence is starting to get going and he's starting to realize he can be a force in this league.

As for when/if he'll shift back to center - Yes, that does seem to be a bit of a concern at the moment. But things change. PLD can play wing - And is probably better suited as a power forward winger anyways from what I've seen (and his struggles with faceoffs). Hell, even Kopitar could shift to wing. I know that's less likely, but maybe as a 37 or 38 year old father time finally does catch up to him and he loses a step to the point where it's difficult for him to control play down the middle. In this league with how fast players are, it's possible. Look at how things have gone for Claude Giroux in Ottawa. He was a career center (and a REALLY good one for a while there) - Now he's a winger. It happens.

For all we know we could see this next year:
PLD - Byfield - Kempe
Fiala - Kopitar - Laferriere

Or something along those lines. And then move PLD back to center when Kopitar retires. One of the reasons the Kings really liked PLD to begin with is his versatility and the fact that he can play both positions. Yes... The price they paid does suggest they see him more as a center - But again, things change, s**t happens.
 
Realistically... He could probably play center right now and be totally fine (or potentially even very good).

It seems a lot of people are basing his 'inability to play center' on the fact that he was underwhelming as a center as a 19/20 year old. What we saw from 19/20 year old QB at center is not the end all be all when it comes to the player's ability / future (It feels silly to even have to say that). He'd likely look MUCH better down the middle now as his confidence is starting to get going and he's starting to realize he can be a force in this league.

As for when/if he'll shift back to center - Yes, that does seem to be a bit of a concern at the moment. But things change. PLD can play wing - And is probably better suited as a power forward winger anyways from what I've seen (and his struggles with faceoffs). Hell, even Kopitar could shift to wing. I know that's less likely, but maybe as a 37 or 38 year old father time finally does catch up to him and he loses a step to the point where it's difficult for him to control play down the middle. In this league with how fast players are, it's possible. Look at how things have gone for Claude Giroux in Ottawa. He was a career center (and a REALLY good one for a while there) - Now he's a winger. It happens.

For all we know we could see this next year:
PLD - Byfield - Kempe
Fiala - Kopitar - Laferriere

Or something along those lines. And then move PLD back to center when Kopitar retires. One of the reasons the Kings really liked PLD to begin with is his versatility and the fact that he can play both positions. Yes... The price they paid does suggest they see him more as a center - But again, things change, s**t happens.

The Kings traded for a center and signed him to an 8 year deal, and then signed Kopitar for another 2 years after this one.

If a team truly believed in the ability of a plaher they used a #2 pick on to play C they wouldn’t move him to the wing for 3+ seasons.

If the Kings thought Byfield could be as good as PLD or Danault at C anytime soon they wouldn’t have traded for PLD.

Maybe they are terribly off on their analysis, but the showing on the ice since the position change sure seems to show a player who is much more comfortable and thus much better playing the wing where his natural god-given skills aren’t lessened by a weakness processing the game.

And PLD was not traded for to play on the wing. No way is a team paying that much and giving up that much for a player of PLD’s caliber to play wing, it would be awful cap management, the only wingers who make that much are star caliber ones. Also, there is more to just playing C effectively than winning face offs. PLD has 450 NHL games producing as a very good 2C, that is why they traded for him and gave him a ton of money, not to play winger.
 
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The Kings traded for a center and signed him to an 8 year deal, and then signed Kopitar for another 2 years after this one.

If a team truly believed in the ability of a plaher they used a #2 pick on to play C they wouldn’t move him to the wing for 3+ seasons.

If the Kings thought Byfield could be as good as PLD or Danault at C anytime soon they wouldn’t have traded for PLD.

Maybe they are terribly off on their analysis, but the showing on the ice since the position change sure seems to show a player who is much more comfortable and thus much better playing the wing where his natural god-given skills aren’t lessened by a weakness processing the game.

And PLD was not traded for to play on the wing. No way is a team paying that much and giving up that much for a player of PLD’s caliber to play wing, it would be awful cap management, the only wingers who make that much are star caliber ones. Also, there is more to just playing C effectively than winning face offs. PLD has 450 NHL games producing as a very good 2C, that is why they traded for him and gave him a ton of money, not to play winger.
OR.... they did the things you mentioned because...

A) They value PLD VERY highly (it's pretty clear Kings management has been in love with the guy since he was drafted by the Blue Jackets) and they know it's pretty rare a player like him becomes available
B) They wanted to be SURE center depth was a strength (instead of banking on 21 year old QB who may/may not need more time)
C) They wanted to keep their franchise, future hall of fame captain around for a couple more seasons

It's entirely possible the Kings believe(d) Byfield could be as good or better than PLD and/or Danault sooner rather than later - But didn't want to risk being wrong on that. They've said multiple times that one of the things they really like about PLD is that he can play both center and wing. For all we know, they saw PLD as the ultimate contingency plan to guarantee really strong center depth for at the very least the next 2-3 seasons. So much of your argument is based on the assumption that you know what the Kings believe / why they did certain things. Ultimately, you don't.

Maybe they acquired PLD and gave him a big contract because they believed he could be either a very good 2C or a star power forward winger - whichever they needed him to be - while also allowing themselves to continue to be patient with Byfield - while also allowing themselves to bolster their roster and contend for a cup while Kopitar and Doughty are still producing at a high level - and saw a ton of value in that.

Also, Byfield seems more comfortable playing this year in general. Yes, he happens to be playing the wing but this could also just be him settling into the NHL in general and for all we know we could've seen the same results from Byfield while playing center at this point in his career. You mentioned Byfield moved to wing for 3+ seasons??? So far he's been at wing for less than 1 full season. Additionally, I don't believe he has a weakness when it comes to hockey IQ / how he processes the game. He's a GREAT playmaker and is VERY solid defensively. Those two things don't happen for a 21 year old that can't process the game well.
 
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TLDR: With Byfield breaking out and PLD in his prime - The Kings have options. That's important especially with a 36 year old 1C. Who knows what happens next year or the following year.

I mean hell look at Patrik Laine - He's been a pure winger his whole life and all of the sudden switched to C as a 25 year old and actually looked pretty decent before getting injured. If he can do that, I'm sure Byfield can shift back to center after a couple years on the wing if needed.
 
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OR.... they did the things you mentioned because...

A) They value PLD VERY highly (it's pretty clear Kings management has been in love with the guy since he was drafted by the Blue Jackets) and they know it's pretty rare a player like him becomes available
B) They wanted to be SURE center depth was a strength (instead of banking on 21 year old QB who may/may not need more time)
C) They wanted to keep their franchise, future hall of fame captain around for a couple more seasons

It's entirely possible the Kings believe(d) Byfield could be as good or better than PLD and/or Danault sooner rather than later - But didn't want to risk being wrong on that. They've said multiple times that one of the things they really like about PLD is that he can play both center and wing. For all we know, they saw PLD as the ultimate contingency plan to guarantee really strong center depth for at the very least the next 2-3 seasons. So much of your argument is based on the assumption that you know what the Kings believe / why they did certain things. Ultimately, you don't.

Maybe they acquired PLD and gave him a big contract because they believed he could be either a very good 2C or a star power forward winger - whichever they needed him to be - while also allowing themselves to continue to be patient with Byfield - while also allowing themselves to bolster their roster and contend for a cup while Kopitar and Doughty are still producing at a high level - and saw a ton of value in that.

Also, Byfield seems more comfortable playing this year in general. Yes, he happens to be playing the wing but this could also just be him settling into the NHL in general and for all we know we could've seen the same results from Byfield while playing center at this point in his career. You mentioned Byfield moved to wing for 3+ seasons??? So far he's been at wing for less than 1 full season. Additionally, I don't believe he has a weakness when it comes to hockey IQ / how he processes the game. He's a GREAT playmaker and is VERY solid defensively. Those two things don't happen for a 21 year old that can't process the game well.

They moved a #2 overall pick to winger and gave out 15 years and over $100m in center contracts after he was drafted. But yeah, seems totally normal behavior for a team that thinks said #2 overall pick can still play C.

So he's going to play wing for 3+ seasons and then suddenly be able to switch to C, a position he had already struggled at? How many players in NHL history played wing for 3+ seasons and then successfully switched to playing center?

It's extremely unusual, but hey maybe you are right. This is the same team that sent Bjornfot back to the minors after 2 seasons in the NHL and pulled a kid from college at 19 after he finished the year with 1 goal in his final 18 NCAA games. Maybe it is just the Kings way.
 
The Kings traded for a center and signed him to an 8 year deal, and then signed Kopitar for another 2 years after this one.

If a team truly believed in the ability of a plaher they used a #2 pick on to play C they wouldn’t move him to the wing for 3+ seasons.

If the Kings thought Byfield could be as good as PLD or Danault at C anytime soon they wouldn’t have traded for PLD.

Maybe they are terribly off on their analysis, but the showing on the ice since the position change sure seems to show a player who is much more comfortable and thus much better playing the wing where his natural god-given skills aren’t lessened by a weakness processing the game.

And PLD was not traded for to play on the wing. No way is a team paying that much and giving up that much for a player of PLD’s caliber to play wing, it would be awful cap management, the only wingers who make that much are star caliber ones. Also, there is more to just playing C effectively than winning face offs. PLD has 450 NHL games producing as a very good 2C, that is why they traded for him and gave him a ton of money, not to play winger.

It never really dawned on me until you and KP brought it up, but the position change to wing certainly makes a lot of sense relative to this thread.

He played C in the WJCs, AHL and NHL (early on) and outside of a few games with Vilardi and Iafallo at the start of last season, he was underwhelming much of the time. It was only when he was moved to Kopitar's wing that his effectivness started to improve.

At wing, especially this year, he's looked like a completely different player. Given how dramatic the turnaround has been, it certainly lends a lot of support to the issue sometimes associated with a position change (I don't even want to use the term anymore :D). It's not even just about points. The guy has been a beast all over the ice.
 
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They moved a #2 overall pick to winger and gave out 15 years and over $100m in center contracts after he was drafted. But yeah, seems totally normal behavior for a team that thinks said #2 overall pick can still play C.

So he's going to play wing for 3+ seasons and then suddenly be able to switch to C, a position he had already struggled at? How many players in NHL history played wing for 3+ seasons and then successfully switched to playing center?

It's extremely unusual, but hey maybe you are right. This is the same team that sent Bjornfot back to the minors after 2 seasons in the NHL and pulled a kid from college at 19 after he finished the year with 1 goal in his final 18 NCAA games. Maybe it is just the Kings way.
I think Kings management is simply being smart on this one. They know they can squeeze a couple more years out of Kopitar, but ultimately are using the Vegas model as a template for future playoff success. PLD fit the bill in the sense that he is a large, playmaking center- regardless of what Byfield becomes.

I believe they are really just trying to give Byfield time to develop into the player they think he will become. Look at the strides he has taken this year alone (all at 21 years old). Not everyone is on the same development curve/trajectory. Will he stay at wing? Who knows, but with the confidence and experience he is getting with Kopitar and Kempe, I wouldn't rule it out.

Regarding comments on QB's hockey IQ- it's becoming more evident to me this year that it is a lot higher than what he is given credit for. I have seen him making passes and understanding/thinking the game at a faster pace than ever before.
 
They moved a #2 overall pick to winger and gave out 15 years and over $100m in center contracts after he was drafted. But yeah, seems totally normal behavior for a team that thinks said #2 overall pick can still play C.

So he's going to play wing for 3+ seasons and then suddenly be able to switch to C, a position he had already struggled at? How many players in NHL history played wing for 3+ seasons and then successfully switched to playing center?

It's extremely unusual, but hey maybe you are right. This is the same team that sent Bjornfot back to the minors after 2 seasons in the NHL and pulled a kid from college at 19 after he finished the year with 1 goal in his final 18 NCAA games. Maybe it is just the Kings way.

nothing this franchise does is 'normal' behavior

to hold that against Byfield is a little wild

and at 21, on the wing, this is a guy who is 75% xgf%, near the team lead in scoring, and at the team lead in +/- while playing 1st line minutes and matchups and being the driver on the most dominant line on one of the most dominant teams in the league.

You think he'll be unable to process a position change back in two more years at age 23, and it's due to hockey IQ?
 

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