When should the Undertaker have retired? (read OP)

[DustyMartellaughs]

After he got the “Sara” tattoo covered up. Not the same, man.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Wrestlemania 21 after letting Orton get the rub of beating the streak and killing another legend. Just because the guy could work until like WM29 doesn't mean he should have. He's been undeserving of that spot for a long time and the only thing keeping him there was the streak and not whether his work was deserving of it.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

Hard to say. To me, Undertaker has rarely been "great". I think a lot of his reputation comes from two things;
1. Being around for a long time
2. His later matches with Shawn Michaels
Taker is a guy who is only as good as who he's in the ring with. Most of his 'Mania matches are duds but most people pretend otherwise. I'd have had him retire before so, but after losing to Lesnar would have been agreeable. The guy was treading water long before that to me.

 

[Scott Stevens]

He should have left when he left his shit in the ring basically indicating he was done. I’m not one to care about anyone staying around “too long” but he called his shot and then reneged.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

WM 33 that was rough

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Jesus. This. So much this.

I loved seeing Cena destroyed with...17 different variations of a suplex or whatever it was especially because Super Cena had been around for so long. It was so unexpected and in that moment..incredible.

But now...years later...it ruined so much. So God damned much.

Why did Lesnar destroying Cena suck?

I thought Lesnar jobbing to HHH was dumb

 

[Paris in Flames]

Why did Lesnar destroying Cena suck?

I thought Lesnar jobbing to HHH was dumb

It sucked because it essentially created the idea of suplex city and the idea that Brock doesn't even really have to work a real match anymore. Shows up. Does some suplexes. Leaves. Usually wraps it up in 6 minutes or less.

For the most part - Brock has been the worst and laziest worker on the roster ever since that night.

 

[JackSlater]

It sucked because it essentially created the idea of suplex city and the idea that Brock doesn't even really have to work a real match anymore. Shows up. Does some suplexes. Leaves. Usually wraps it up in 6 minutes or less.

For the most part - Brock has been the worst and laziest worker on the roster ever since that night.

Lazy arguably, but the worst? Not close.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Nah, Shane and his chicken-wing punches are still, somehow, a part of in-ring action.

While he's still around, Brock will never be the worst wrestler.

Also Nia Jax.

 

[Paris in Flames]

Shane brings excitement despite his flaws. Brock brings none despite all his talent.

 

[Dr Pepper]

Shane brings excitement despite his flaws. Brock brings none despite all his talent.

I don't think I've ever been excited to see Shane McMahon, or that goofy little backwards run he always does.

Brock brings exponentially more excitement when he shows up, IMO. I find his matches more entertaining for this reason.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

Brock Lesnar is a once in a lifetime athlete imho. I’m always excited to see him work when he’s not going against Strowman, especially now that he enjoys working smaller talent more.

 

[JackSlater]

You don't have to go all the way down to Shane McMahon to find loads of people worse in ring than Lesnar. I can understand a person not liking how he is booked but his ability when he wants to put on a great match is up there with almost anyone in WWE. Honestly, I also don't want to see Lesnar going back and forth with every wrestler in the company for 30+ minutes. It would kill him off as a character. He's essentially the monster gimmick updated to the 2010s, for better or worse.

Ideally, Lesnar would not have lost to Cena or HHH when he came back and someone eventually beating Lesnar cleanly would be the big chip in the company that replaces beating Undertaker at Wrestlemania. Then again if WWE wasted it on Goldberg (or someone along those lines) it's probably best that it didn't happen.

 

[Dr Pepper]

You don't have to go all the way down to Shane McMahon to find loads of people worse in ring than Lesnar. I can understand a person not liking how he is booked but his ability when he wants to put on a great match is up there with almost anyone in WWE. Honestly, I also don't want to see Lesnar going back and forth with every wrestler in the company for 30+ minutes. It would kill him off as a character. He's essentially the monster gimmick updated to the 2010s, for better or worse.

Ideally, Lesnar would not have lost to Cena or HHH when he came back and someone eventually beating Lesnar cleanly would be the big chip in the company that replaces beating Undertaker at Wrestlemania. Then again if WWE wasted it on Goldberg (or someone along those lines) it's probably best that it didn't happen.

Agreed, it is quite the drop-off.

 

[These Are The Days]

Probably unpopular opinion but he should have been defeated and retired by Kane in a casket match and it could have happened at any Mania. He's rolled out of Mania in it and when they check the casket it's empty and boom Taker is gone as suddenly as he came.

Leading up it's said that this is the last match of the losers career and all their history will come to an end

 

[OmniSens]

After the second HBK match. Figured win or lose they both would have retired there

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

It sucked because it essentially created the idea of suplex city and the idea that Brock doesn't even really have to work a real match anymore. Shows up. Does some suplexes. Leaves. Usually wraps it up in 6 minutes or less.

For the most part - Brock has been the worst and laziest worker on the roster ever since that night.

the Brock spot fest matches of the past few years are more about his opponents than Brock

Goldberg was old as s**t and Strowman is a monster with no tank.

Either of them going with Brock in a pure wrestling match are completely gassed within 5 minutes. Those matches were a necessity to cover for them.

to your point, I dont get why they didnt let Brock and Roman (or Brock/Joe) have an actual wrestling match on their own.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

the Brock spot fest matches of the past few years are more about his opponents than Brock

Goldberg was old as s**t and Strowman is a monster with no tank.

Either of them going with Brock in a pure wrestling match are completely gassed within 5 minutes. Those matches were a necessity to cover for them.

to your point, I dont get why they didnt let Brock and Roman (or Brock/Joe) have an actual wrestling match on their own.

Brock/Roman at WM31 was great even before Seth cashed in imo. I don’t know why they went away from that formula last year.

Brock/Joe did what it needed to do. Joe was killing Brock for 5 minutes before Lesnar found an opening. IIRC, that match was 90% Joe. It didn’t need to be a 15 minute match. In fact, a 15 minute loss probably wouldn’t have had the same impact as the way the match ended up going. Joe was super hot following that match. The following night where he said Lesnar didn’t beat him but he escaped was great.

 

[JackSlater]

Brock/Joe did what it needed to do. Joe was killing Brock for 5 minutes before Lesnar found an opening. IIRC, that match was 90% Joe. It didn’t need to be a 15 minute match. In fact, a 15 minute loss probably wouldn’t have had the same impact as the way the match ended up going. Joe was super hot following that match. The following night where he said Lesnar didn’t beat him but he escaped was great.

This is the right take on Lesnar. Not every wrestler needs to be, or should be, a typical part of the pecking order in WWE. Lesnar shouldn't be in back and forth matches with almost anyone. It's alright to have a guy, in kayfabe terms, who is above the rest. Lesnar is built up like wrestling monsters of old. Having a few minutes of advantage against Lesnar is worth pretty much the same s beating almost any of the typical 50/50 wrestlers, and beating him is huge. The booking with Joe was perfectly fine. The problem is that WWE typically drops the ball and reverts back to trying to get Reigns over instead of having someone else inch their way toward finally defeating Lesnar.

People crap on Lesnar far too much. I even like having him break Undertaker's streak and would have liked to see what they could have done if Undertaker didn't get injured in the early stages. They should have made beating Lesnar into the new version of beating Undertaker at Wrestlemania, but this is WWE and they really need to fall into finding something worthwhile.

 

[M.C.G. 31]

This is the right take on Lesnar. Not every wrestler needs to be, or should be, a typical part of the pecking order in WWE. Lesnar shouldn't be in back and forth matches with almost anyone. It's alright to have a guy, in kayfabe terms, who is above the rest. Lesnar is built up like wrestling monsters of old. Having a few minutes of advantage against Lesnar is worth pretty much the same s beating almost any of the typical 50/50 wrestlers, and beating him is huge. The booking with Joe was perfectly fine. The problem is that WWE typically drops the ball and reverts back to trying to get Reigns over instead of having someone else inch their way toward finally defeating Lesnar.

People crap on Lesnar far too much. I even like having him break Undertaker's streak and would have liked to see what they could have done if Undertaker didn't get injured in the early stages. They should have made beating Lesnar into the new version of beating Undertaker at Wrestlemania, but this is WWE and they really need to fall into finding something worthwhile.

Yeah it’s not the way Lesnar matches are put together imo, it’s completely the follow up.

In regards to Joe, he got injured shortly after Summerslam and was away for a bit, but you had Balor take everything to Lesnar and Lesnar also just escaped him. Like Balor seriously controlled the majority of that match and got caught in the end going high risk.

The only one they properly followed up with imo was Daniel Bryan, because the beating allowed him to turn it into needing that to get rid of the old Daniel Bryan and usher in the new Daniel Bryan. It was tremendous follow up, but no doubt, Bryan played a huge part in that compared to what someone like Styles, Joe or Balor could have pitched as a follow up for their character afterwards.

Lesnar/Taker in the HIAC after WM was Taker’s last good match imo.

If I booked Lesnar when he came back in 2012, most people wouldn’t like it either, but I would have had him go undefeated for years. Seriously. Someone like Lesnar shouldn’t be losing much at all.

Cena at ER? Lesnar would have won.
HHH? Win... in all three matches. Although there wouldn’t have been a third, there would have been two and Lesnar would have won them all.
Punk? Win.
Inevitable Taker match at WM? Win. End that streak.
Cena? Win.
Everyone after? Win. I would have done the WM cash-in the same way with Seth to transfer the title to TV full time though, and have Taker get his matches with Lesnar for Summerslam and HIAC to keep Lesnar occupied before regaining the title.
Reigns? I would have still had Lesnar win unless Roman was getting organically over, which WWE’s booking prevented.

His undefeated streak would have gone years if I was booking, and he would be unstoppable, but smaller guys would still be his kryptonite like we see now, and you’d start to see the cracks in the foundation and it would have inevitably led us to now with Seth Rollins beating Brock (although I would have done this when Seth was WHITE HOT at Summerslam 2018).

People wouldn’t like a near 7 year undefeated streak, but Brock is a once in a lifetime athlete. I truly believe that. He should be booked as such in comparison to his peers until an elite, speed based opponent finally got the better of him, because when it comes to strength, no one is touching him and combining the strength, agility and speed into one package like Brock has.

 

[JackSlater]

Yeah it’s not the way Lesnar matches are put together imo, it’s completely the follow up.

In regards to Joe, he got injured shortly after Summerslam and was away for a bit, but you had Balor take everything to Lesnar and Lesnar also just escaped him. Like Balor seriously controlled the majority of that match and got caught in the end going high risk.

The only one they properly followed up with imo was Daniel Bryan, because the beating allowed him to turn it into needing that to get rid of the old Daniel Bryan and usher in the new Daniel Bryan. It was tremendous follow up, but no doubt, Bryan played a huge part in that compared to what someone like Styles, Joe or Balor could have pitched as a follow up for their character afterwards.

Lesnar/Taker in the HIAC after WM was Taker’s last good match imo.

If I booked Lesnar when he came back in 2012, most people wouldn’t like it either, but I would have had him go undefeated for years. Seriously. Someone like Lesnar shouldn’t be losing much at all.

Cena at ER? Lesnar would have won.
HHH? Win... in all three matches. Although there wouldn’t have been a third, there would have been two and Lesnar would have won them all.
Punk? Win.
Inevitable Taker match at WM? Win. End that streak.
Cena? Win.
Everyone after? Win. I would have done the WM cash-in the same way with Seth to transfer the title to TV full time though, and have Taker get his matches with Lesnar for Summerslam and HIAC to keep Lesnar occupied before regaining the title.
Reigns? I would have still had Lesnar win unless Roman was getting organically over, which WWE’s booking prevented.

His undefeated streak would have gone years if I was booking, and he would be unstoppable, but smaller guys would still be his kryptonite like we see now, and you’d start to see the cracks in the foundation and it would have inevitably led us to now with Seth Rollins beating Brock (although I would have done this when Seth was WHITE HOT at Summerslam 2018).

People wouldn’t like a near 7 year undefeated streak, but Brock is a once in a lifetime athlete. I truly believe that. He should be booked as such in comparison to his peers until an elite, speed based opponent finally got the better of him, because when it comes to strength, no one is touching him and combining the strength, agility and speed into one package like Brock has.

Yes I've said the same to people, that is exactly what should have happened. Unfortunately Vince is short sighted and petty and thus Cena (ie the company) needed a win over Lesnar in the pocket, while HHH is the biggest HHH mark there is and has the pull to get what he wants. Ideally you keep Lesnar out of the title picture as there are only so many ways (such as the Rollins cash in they already did) to get the title off him without losing. They should basically have built Lesnar up as a spectre of sorts that no one can really hang with... until one guy does. The guy who cleanly beats Lesnar after a seven year undefeated streak is getting a mega rub at that point.

Ideally, you have a guy take on Lesnar and get pretty badly beaten. Perhaps while he is getting destroyed though, he busts Lesnar open (no one else has done it in the re-booking) and Lesnar, ala Nelson Muntz, gets angry about being made to bleed his own blood. This carries things over, as the guy for weeks has credibility from actually clearly weakening Lesnar. Lesnar is pissed, having stewed over being busted open, and they have another match, this time it's closer. Lesnar wins again, though perhaps Heyman (or a Heyman crony, as Heyman should have a stable of sorts) slightly interfered in some way. Not enough to make Lesnar look weak, just something small and arguably even accidental. Lesnar is not satisfied, and his opponent again has something to hang his hat on. You can also have them interact once or twice with the opponent getting one over on Lesnar in a small way, so as to justify the continued matches, like the opponent costs Lesnar in a multi man match or eliminates Lesnar from a Royal Rumble. This leads to a third match where they have a war, the first guy to get Lesnar into a lengthy war, but Lesnar is a predator and predators win with short bursts, not marathons. To the surprise of the fans this opponent finally beats Lesnar, cleanly, and looks like a mega star. Unless it's Reigns, in which case the fans are mad and boo.

 

[TNT87]

The Undertaker has always been my favorite of all time. However, I don't want to watch him wrestle anymore. It's been cringe worthy to see my favorite wrestler in the ring over the past few years.

I watched his and HBK's first WM match yesterday and it was so good. I want to remember him that way not the last time I saw him against HBK.

I will always be pissed that Lesnar broke the streak. If it was to be broken it should have been to another wrestler like Bray. The mystique was gone after that. I really thought after the Reigns WM match that would have been it for him.

 

[Sheppy]

I agree. The more I look back on it, the more it should have been Bray.

Even with some crazy shenanigans from Harper and Rowan, that would have solidified that group as an absolute force.

 

[keonsbitterness]

1991

 

[KaseMeOutside]

Hard to say. To me, Undertaker has rarely been "great". I think a lot of his reputation comes from two things;
1. Being around for a long time
2. His later matches with Shawn Michaels
Taker is a guy who is only as good as who he's in the ring with. Most of his 'Mania matches are duds but most people pretend otherwise. I'd have had him retire before so, but after losing to Lesnar would have been agreeable. The guy was treading water long before that to me.

This is just not true go watch his matches with Batista