When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[norrisnick]

Last year and this year they have been trying to compete for a playoff spot. They have tried to do this by bringing in veteran players in UFA and trades without sending away any premium future assets (this is a strategy I largely agree with and think they should pursue!). However, the vast majority of these players they have brought in have been bad. DeBrincat and Kane have been the only hits and there have been a pretty staggering amount of misses up next to them. I don't think it's unreasonable to say a different GM could have pursued the same strategy but made much better pro scouting decisions and ended up with a better team because of it.

It's the same with the drafting. Yes, most prospect writers have their system as at worst top 10 in the league. I'd say that's mostly due to the volume of picks they've had, not the overwhelming success that Yzerman's regime has had. They've had 13 (!!!) second round picks since he's taken over and they've played a combined total of 2 NHL games. Of their 3rd round and onwards picks, only Soderblom has played any amount of NHL games. The strategy of accumulating a lot of high picks was good, but to me those picks haven't been executed particularly well so far.

They've been "trying" not trying. He wanted to be better than rock bottom as getting caved in is bad for everyone involved. But a serious team does not have Jeff Petry in the top 4. Every move he's made points to biding time until the kids he's drafted slot in.

Not to mention it's not like there have been any impact players available in free agency. Or that impact players would sign with a rebuilding team. Like Kane and Tarasenko were mentioned above. No serious team has them in a top 6 role.

 

[Dotter]

DeBrincat and Kane have been the only hits

I disagree.

 

[qc14]

They've been "trying" not trying. He wanted to be better than rock bottom as getting caved in is bad for everyone involved. But a serious team does not have Jeff Petry in the top 4. Every move he's made points to biding time until the kids he's drafted slot in.

Not to mention it's not like there have been any impact players available in free agency. Or that impact players would sign with a rebuilding team. Like Kane and Tarasenko were mentioned above. No serious team has them in a top 6 role.

I agree no serious team has Petry in their top 4. The fact that it's year 5 of the Yzerplan and they either don't have the talent or the player evaluation skills necessary to replace him there reflects poorly on Yzerman! It's not that there have been MVP-caliber, huge impact players available in FA that they haven't got but rather that they have done a very poor job identifying good value depth pieces.

There's just been no "found money" with any of his moves. Trade, FA, or through the draft -- there's no one move or area of management you can point to and say "wow Detroit got great value here" or "Yzerman really knows how to scout depth defenseman"

 

[BB88]

Actually Detroit has a very deep prospect pool, I don't see them being a average team at there peak, they have the making of a very good young defense with some very good Center depth down the middle, you're post basically shows you have no actualy knowledge of the Yzerplan, and yah they have no franchise forwards not there fault they missed out on lottery picks.

This the same as listening to Nashville fans talk about their prospect pool.

They have good assets but zero elite assets & if you want to be one of the elite teams in this league you need game changers. I’m sorry if that’s new info for you

& how damm long are people going to cry about their lottery luck? Detroit isn’t the only team that has been on those drafts or been rebuilding during the last 10 years. Drafts are also not the only way to build a team….. there’s big trades happening every year and if you want to be a contender one way or another you need to find a way to address those issues. So far Y plan has been a fail

”I’m sorry we won’t be able to build a contender for the next 10 years because at a time we had bad luck in lottery”

I’d love to be a Gm making millions with zero expectations for results

 

[norrisnick]

I agree no serious team has Petry in their top 4. The fact that it's year 5 of the Yzerplan and they either don't have the talent or the player evaluation skills necessary to replace him there reflects poorly on Yzerman! It's not that there have been MVP-caliber, huge impact players available in FA that they haven't got but rather that they have done a very poor job identifying good value depth pieces.

There's just been no "found money" with any of his moves. Trade, FA, or through the draft -- there's no one move or area of management you can point to and say "wow Detroit got great value here" or "Yzerman really knows how to scout depth defenseman"

His 1sts have been very good. There are a couple guys in later rounds that should be in the NHL in some shape in the future. Guys like Mazur and Finnie. Not world beaters but solid contributors. Buchelnikov is starting to go off now that he's built more like an 8th grader rather than a 5th grader.

Like going back to criticism of his 2nd and later picks. There are maybe 10 guys, league wide, that are anything beyond cups of coffee so far from 2019 and then fewer the closer the drafts get. It takes time. Pinpointing one team as failing in that regard when the vast majority of the league is failing there is silly.

 

[qc14]

His 1sts have been very good. There are a couple guys in later rounds that should be in the NHL in some shape in the future. Guys like Mazur and Finnie. Not world beaters but solid contributors. Buchelnikov is starting to go off now that he's built more like an 8th grader rather than a 5th grader.

Like going back to criticism of his 2nd and later picks. There are maybe 10 guys, league wide, that are anything beyond cups of coffee so far from 2019 and then fewer the closer the drafts get. It takes time. Pinpointing one team as failing in that regard when the vast majority of the league is failing there is silly.

The fact that they haven't been able to even get cups of coffee despite the NHL club severely lacking talent is not a good sign, especially considering the volume of picks they've had in that time frame.

 

[Czechboy]

I've honestly tried to follow this and see both sides. So here is my newest question

Detroit keeps missing the playoffs and keep getting a little closer each time to being a playoff team. So we are calling that improvement because they went from being the worst non playoff team to the best non playoff team.

Most agree the signings are placeholders and are not part of the future (Petry, Holl, Kane, Tarasenko, Husso)

Some agreement that the draft picks will become NHLers - Erviddson, Kaspar, ASP, Augustine.

Eg. using Czechs.. these guys were drafted at similar spots to Zboril, Kaut, Zadina and Hajek. Or using my OIlers - Yamamoto, Yakupov, JP and Dubnyk. Using Finn's - Lambert, Honka, Juolevi and JP.

Most agree there are no future elite gamebreakers on the roster. (note: I disagree, I have Seider in Makar/Hughes territory but think Stevie Y has done him no favors with D partners).

So if they make the playoffs this year with the place fillers. Then, in the next 2 years, they replace the veteran NHL place fillers with the 1st and 2nd to 7th rounders that Stevie Y has drafted. Wouldn't everyone expect them to drop? Become a non playoff team again?

 

[Breakers]

85 pages to come to the conclusion that it is trash

 

[norrisnick]

The fact that they haven't been able to even get cups of coffee despite the NHL club severely lacking talent is not a good sign, especially considering the volume of picks they've had in that time frame.

Yzerman does not believe in cups of coffee. Which for a fan is exceedingly frustrating.

 

[Hisch13r]

85 pages to come to the conclusion that it is trash

Some Wings fans still have their heads buried in the sand.

 

[centipede2233]

I think yzerman has done a piss poor job. His ufa signings outside of Kane have been dismal. Really poor use of the cap space.

 

[newfy]

I've honestly tried to follow this and see both sides. So here is my newest question
So if they make the playoffs this year with the place fillers. Then, in the next 2 years, they replace the veteran NHL place fillers with the 1st and 2nd to 7th rounders that Stevie Y has drafted. Wouldn't everyone expect them to drop? Become a non playoff team again?

No because you're not accounting for young players to improve. Last season you have Seider playing the hardest minutes in the last 10-20 years as a 21 year old, Raymond scoring 30 something goals and 70 something points as a 20 year old. They'll be improving for the next 3 years probably before they're really in their primes. You also have a tonne of picks made in the last several years that will be making their debuts in the next few years... barely any late round picks have made the NHL since Detroit hired Yzerman league wide, but the odds of Detroit getting a couple good players out of those rounds is higher than most.

They also have the ability to sign free agents in the future, and with how many young guys they have coming, they have more assets to move around than most.

People can argue about whether they trust Yzerman to make those trades or signings but they objectively have one of the best prospect pools in the league if they needc to make moves for help.

 

[norrisnick]

Honestly the Kane signing was one of the worst he's made. Its pandering for jersey sales with the husk of a HOFer. Pointing to that as one of the few positive moves by a rebuilding team is very telling.

 

[nbwingsfan]

What has Y shown for you to believe he’s going to suddenly change and make the rebuild work and land a real difference maker

& cute by you for not knowing Vegas roster

Absolutely nobody is watching Detroits rebuild with fear in their eye, Detroit fans are the only ones living in fantasy land

Please direct me to the franchise players on the Vegas and STL rosters. I’ll wait.

You realize all of the Wings beat prospects are 21 and under right? You can say with 100% certainly none will be any good?

What makes you think Raymond can’t be a franchise level player?

 

[WarriorofTime]

So if they make the playoffs this year with the place fillers. Then, in the next 2 years, they replace the veteran NHL place fillers with the 1st and 2nd to 7th rounders that Stevie Y has drafted. Wouldn't everyone expect them to drop? Become a non playoff team again?

The thing I keep coming back is that I think they'll probably just be around the same. So in a couple years, J.T. Compher is gone and Nate Danielson is there. Ok, you replaced a $5 million vet with a kid that you're gonna pay around that in cap % in a few years. Does that make you a better team or around the same?

 

[nbwingsfan]

You guys really need to drop this notion that Dylan Larkin is Jack Eichel’s equal lol. Straight up nobody but you guys thinks that’s the case.

Compare their stats over the last 3 seasons.

It’s cool Eichel was better when they were like 22.

That’s entirely irrelevant to today.

I don't think it's controversial to say that Detroit has no one in their system (including Raymond) that reasonably projects to be close to the level of players Eichel and ROR were when Vegas and STL had their cup wins.

Raymond had 31g/73pts at 21 years old

ROR had a career high of 77, while being like 7 years older at the time.

Sure man, whatever you say

 

[WarriorofTime]

Compare their stats over the last 3 seasons.

It’s cool Eichel was better when they were like 22.

That’s entirely irrelevant to today.

Go wander over to the preseason "best player" lists they circulate every year, Make a poll, go wander over to the speculation on USA best on best rosters where people make mock lineups... you can hold any opinion you want, but the clear consensus is Eichel is a comfortably better player. Eichel is a year and a half removed from being well over a PPG guy with great two way play that was the 1st line center through four rounds of the Stanley Cup Playoffs and put the Cup over his head. Sometimes there's more to the game than "stats over the last 3 seasons" (didn't Eichel have a disc replacement surgery? He did)

 

[Czechboy]

couple good players out of those rounds is higher than most.

Why do Stevie Y picks have a higher chance than non Stevie Y picks?

They also have the ability to sign free agents in the future,

Look at your roster today, do you like the free agent signings?

one of the best prospect pools in the league

Based on what? I read a lot in the prospects section. I'd say it is around 5 to 7...

Philly, Buffalo, SJ, Chicago, Columbus and Anaheim routinely come up in these arguments. Philly has Michkov. Chicago has Bedard. Seider and Raymond are no longer considered prospects. FTR.. Seider is 23 so not sure about his deployment as a 21 year old last season. Raymond is also 22 so not sure about his 20 year old season. Are you referring to 2 years ago? And I said I have Seider in 'Makar/Hughes' territory so not sure why you think I'm not accounting for improvement there. I think Raymoind is awesome but I do think Michkov and Bedard will be better than him. To continue an argument above... he is the Larkin to their Eichel.

 

[nbwingsfan]

He's right though. It took 18 years but yes they absolutely pulled out of it and ended the rebuild while being a contender. No argument that it took way longer than it should have obviously.

So by his logic Yzerman has another 13 years of rope and this thread is a joke, right?

Go wander over to the preseason "best player" lists they circulate every year, Make a poll, go wander over to the speculation on USA best on best rosters where people make mock lineups... you can hold any opinion you want, but the clear consensus is Eichel is a comfortably better player. Eichel is a year and a half removed from being well over a PPG guy with great two way play that was the 1st line center through four rounds of the Stanley Cup Playoffs and put the Cup over his head. Sometimes there's more to the game than "stats over the last 3 seasons" (didn't Eichel have a disc replacement surgery? He did)

Yes Eichel had surgery. And hasn’t been the same since.

What are you talking about? The last time Eichel was “well over PPG” was 19/20 before he had surgery. That’s 5 years ago kid.

Unless you consider 68 in 63 some massive difference between 69 in 68 like Larkin just did

 

[nbwingsfan]

Why do Stevie Y picks have a higher chance than non Stevie Y picks?

Look at your roster today, do you like the free agent signings?

Based on what? I read a lot in the prospects section. I'd say it is around 5 to 7...

Philly, Buffalo, SJ, Chicago, Columbus and Anaheim routinely come up in these arguments. Philly has Michkov. Chicago has Bedard. Seider and Raymond are no longer considered prospects. FTR.. Seider is 23 so not sure about his deployment as a 21 year old last season. Raymond is also 22 so not sure about his 20 year old season. Are you referring to 2 years ago? And I said I have Seider in 'Makar/Hughes' territory so not sure why you think I'm not accounting for improvement there. I think Raymoind is awesome but I do think Michkov and Bedard will be better than him. To continue an argument above... he is the Larkin to their Eichel.

Based on all the rankings. I’ve already posted one.

The thing I keep coming back is that I think they'll probably just be around the same. So in a couple years, J.T. Compher is gone and Nate Danielson is there. Ok, you replaced a $5 million vet with a kid that you're gonna pay around that in cap % in a few years. Does that make you a better team or around the same?

Considering he projects as much better than Compher…. Yes they will be improved.

 

[nbwingsfan]

This the same as listening to Nashville fans talk about their prospect pool.

They have good assets but zero elite assets & if you want to be one of the elite teams in this league you need game changers. I’m sorry if that’s new info for you

& how damm long are people going to cry about their lottery luck? Detroit isn’t the only team that has been on those drafts or been rebuilding during the last 10 years. Drafts are also not the only way to build a team….. there’s big trades happening every year and if you want to be a contender one way or another you need to find a way to address those issues. So far Y plan has been a fail

”I’m sorry we won’t be able to build a contender for the next 10 years because at a time we had bad luck in lottery”

I’d love to be a Gm making millions with zero expectations for results

I’m still waiting to see how you can tell the future and that Raymond or any of the prospects won’t be stars? Raymond is pretty much exactly where Pasta was at the same age, arguably higher.

 

[Czechboy]

Based on all the rankings. I’ve already posted one.

Which one did you repost?

Here are 4

The NHL’s Best Farm Systems Ranked - 2024-25 Preseason Update - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

Just like the NHL clubs, their prospect pools are all at different stages. This piece will take a look at every NHL farm system ranking.

thehockeywriters.com

Ranking every NHL team’s 2024-25 prospect pool, from 1-32

Which teams improved? Which clubs fell? Breaking down how all 32 NHL pipelines stack up against each other.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10136425-ranking-every-nhl-teams-prospect-pool-for-the-2024-25-season

Ranking every NHL team's prospect pipeline: Why the Sabres are No. 1

Clubs will add to their pools of young talent in the draft, but who has the best system right now? We count them down from 32 to 1.

www.espn.com

Wheeler had them at 2. I'm just consistently seeing the same 3 or 4 teams being ranked ahead of Detroit. I do agree it's a Top 5 prospect pool. It's also considerably better than my Oiler's prospect pool which I would put at 32.lol

 

[nbwingsfan]

Which one did you repost?

Here are 4

The NHL’s Best Farm Systems Ranked - 2024-25 Preseason Update - The Hockey Writers Latest News, Analysis & More

Just like the NHL clubs, their prospect pools are all at different stages. This piece will take a look at every NHL farm system ranking.

thehockeywriters.com

Ranking every NHL team’s 2024-25 prospect pool, from 1-32

Which teams improved? Which clubs fell? Breaking down how all 32 NHL pipelines stack up against each other.

www.dailyfaceoff.com

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10136425-ranking-every-nhl-teams-prospect-pool-for-the-2024-25-season

Ranking every NHL team's prospect pipeline: Why the Sabres are No. 1

Clubs will add to their pools of young talent in the draft, but who has the best system right now? We count them down from 32 to 1.

www.espn.com

Wheeler had them at 2. I'm just consistently seeing the same 3 or 4 teams being ranked ahead of Detroit. I do agree it's a Top 5 prospect pool. It's also considerably better than my Oiler's prospect pool which I would put at 32.lol

Top 5 isn’t one of the best in the NHL to you? Lol

 

[Czechboy]

I’m still waiting to see how you can tell the future and that Raymond or any of the prospects won’t be stars? Raymond is pretty much exactly where Pasta was at the same age, arguably higher.

I'll ask.. do you feel Raymond will be at a Panarin/Kucherov/Pasta/Matthews/McD/Drai/MacK/Stevie Y/Fedorov tier at some point in his Red Wing's career?

 

[Czechboy]

Top 5 isn’t one of the best in the NHL to you? Lol

It's a good propsect pool.... but we agree it's not the best one or top 3, right?