When does the Yzerplan start getting criticized?

[ViewsFromThe6ix]

Anyone who wants to criticize the Yzerman rebuild should point out what he could have done differently that would have the team in a better spot. He can’t pull star talent out of thin air and he has drafted very well in the first round so far. He’s made a bunch of small moves that have worked out and improved the team and the future incrementally. Blaming Yzerman for lousy lottery luck is nonsensical

He could have weaponized cap space a lot better. He has done an extremely piss poor job doing it. For example, do the Monahan deal MTL did. The Kassian, Gostisbere trades that Arizona did. Act as a third party broker like Minny did and pick up more picks. Instead, they trade more future wins for present by using that cap space on guys like Chiarot and Copp. Use those assets to parlay into young players with term, kind of like the Hronek/Chychrun deals. Two teams in their own division have done a better job rebuilding than Yzerman has.

Also, draft Sanderson over Raymond and chose the right goalie in 2021.

 

[hotcabbagesoup]

wheNEVER

 

[valet]

they need more top end talent. doesn’t look like they’ll be drafting in the top 5 in the near future, so they gotta hit it big time with whatever draft slot they get in the upcoming 1st rounds. kind of in purgatory tbh unless things work out just right

 

[Cursed Lemon]

He could have weaponized cap space a lot better. He has done an extremely piss poor job doing it. For example, do the Monahan deal MTL did. The Kassian, Gostisbere trades that Arizona did. Act as a third party broker like Minny did and pick up more picks. Instead, they trade more future wins for present by using that cap space on guys like Chiarot and Copp. Use those assets to parlay into young players with term, kind of like the Hronek/Chychrun deals. Two teams in their own division have done a better job rebuilding than Yzerman has.

So you're saying that Yzerman should've foregone putting even mildly capable NHL defensemen on the back end for sake of the rebuild, thus probably causing us to lose even more games, thus making the rebuild that much easier to criticize? You'd say the rebuild was more on track if we were worse than we are now?

 

[Our Lady Peace]

Colorado spent years and years being awful and having high picks almost handed to them (props on hitting on MacKinnon, Rantanen, and Makar though). Started with Duchene at pick #3 in 2009 and they starred in one playoff appearance in 2014 during that poor time. They're doing just fine now (I think), but it took them a while.

Detroit has been in a less favourable spot not drafting top 3 at any time recently and Ken Holland really tried to wring out every last bit from the Datsyuk/Zetterberg era. Yzerman really inherited a disaster, to be honest.

Kenny blowing the Svechnikov and Cholowski picks didn't help at all. Mantha and Zadina are big disappointments. Rasmussen is at least showing something this season that most Wings fans can appreciate and hope he builds on.

You have to build through the draft (i.e Red Wings dynasty). Since Yzerman took over, the prospect pool has actually been the deepest its been in a long time. Remains to be seen if the depth prospects pan out in any way but that's gonna take a while. I felt that was kind of a given.

 

[Martin Skoula]

You criticizing the Yzerplan is one of the steps of the Yzerplan. You cannot escape the Yzerplan. Steve has already foreseen every variation of everything you could possibly say in this thread and it’s already been preemptively handled.

 

[T REX]

Detroit was a mess when he got there.

He would have multiple job opps if the wings let him go.

 

[Chips]

He didn't get a McDavid/Matthews/Hughes layup to build around. Hopefully for the Wings they get some lottery luck in this draft.

This, plenty of the true top teams, like decade+ competitive teams took a long ass time. It will take time to acquire a young core, and they’re wise not to go all in aggressive making moves before they’ve got a little more sure (sure sure) young talent


Finishing bottom 10 can get them more serious talent; and closer in age to Seider and Raymond, longer term financial control

 

[Chainshot]

I still like how he's trying to build his defense, has a lot of picks in his pipeline and even more coming up over this draft and the next. He's still in the building phase even if he has some solid veterans around to keep things from sinking too low.

 

[MichaelFarrell]

Let’s take a look at some of his decisions. Long post alert.

2019 Draft: Moritz Seider at 6 was a great pick. But some big misses with that 2nd round pick and pretty much nothing with every pick after Seider. That can be forgiven because you got a #1 D.

19-20 Season: He was able to accumulate a lot of draft capital at the trade deadline and taking on salary. Got a great value trade in Robby Fabbri. Ended the season 31st in the NHL.

2020 draft: Solid pick in Raymond despite sophomore slump this year. Wallinder looks good but all the other picks are still up in the air. No significant signings in the offseason.

20-21 Season: Anthony Mantha trade got them Vrana (eventually lost for nothing), 1st round pick (they used this to trade up to get Cossa), and a 2nd (Dmitri Buchelnikov). Ended the season 27th in the NHL.

2021 Draft: Traded a 2nd round pick and Panik for Leddy for some reason. Acquired Ned for Bernier and a 3rd (really good trade). Drafted the best player available in Edvinsson. Looks like a great pick. He then traded a 1st the 23rd overall (Wyatt Johnston), a 2nd the 48th overall (Artem Grushnikov), and a 5th round pick to move up 8 places to draft Cossa instead of Wallstedt. He drafted Buium 36th (could be a good pick), Mazur 70th (great pick), and Savage 114th (great value player there).

21-22 Season: Resigned Fabbri 3x$4, Vrana 3x 5.25, and Hronek 3x$4.4. Acquired Sundqvist and Walman for Leddy and Witkowski (easily won that trade). Ended the season 25th in the NHL.

2022 Draft: Drafted Marco Kasper 8th overall and looks like a great pick. Every other pick he made is still up in the air at this point.

22-23 Season: Attempted to expedite the rebuild by trading for Husso for a 3rd round pick signed for 3x$4.75 (.899 sv% this year), signed Kubalik 2x$2.5 (43 points so far this year good value), signed Perron 2x$4.75 (50 points so far this year), and signed Chairot 4x$4.75 (looks like a terrible signing), and a signed Copp 5x$5.625 (41 points so far this year). This season has had its ups and downs but no real progression in the standings.

My conclusion is: he’s done a good job. There isn’t much more he could’ve done. His biggest mistake was attempting to speed up the process. Detroit was absolutely horrible before he took over. What more is he supposed to do in just 3 full seasons?

 

[BudBundy]

So you're saying that Yzerman should've foregone putting even mildly capable NHL defensemen on the back end for sake of the rebuild, thus probably causing us to lose even more games, thus making the rebuild that much easier to criticize? You'd say the rebuild was more on track if we were worse than we are now?

Yes.

 

[Guttersniped]

He could have weaponized cap space a lot better. He has done an extremely piss poor job doing it. For example, do the Monahan deal MTL did. The Kassian, Gostisbere trades that Arizona did. Act as a third party broker like Minny did and pick up more picks. Instead, they trade more future wins for present by using that cap space on guys like Chiarot and Copp. Use those assets to parlay into young players with term, kind of like the Hronek/Chychrun deals. Two teams in their own division have done a better job rebuilding than Yzerman has.

Also, draft Sanderson over Raymond and chose the right goalie in 2021.

They did the Marc Staal trade, pretty sure that was a cap dump trade.

Detroit has used 5 1sts and 9 2nds in the last four drafts. They have 2 1sts and 3 2nds in the 2023 draft.

Raymond has the second most points in his draft class. Detroit had used their 1st, plus 2 of their 3 2nds, in 2019 on defensemen. It’s not a mistake to draft Raymond.

Plus Sanderson wouldn’t improve their current fortunes or get them in the playoffs this season, so the same criticisms would be there.

And yes, the Wings didn’t spend assets on getting Chychrun, but LHD is not an organizational need. At all.

And they traded Hronek and I assume they had a reason for that.

They have a ton of cap space and plenty of picks. The cap is only going up 1m, Yzerman has a lot flexibility.

Cossa is probably the least likable move but I don’t know what he turns into.

Some people overrate Yzerman but that doesn’t mean the Wings should magically be better than this in four years. This process takes however long it takes.

 

[ZachaFlockaFlame]

His worst moves were probably Cossa over Wallstedt, the Copp + Chairot deals. Part of me wonders how much the latter came from pressure from ownership to wanting to win a bit quicker considering I'm pretty sure they haven't made the playoffs in the new arena they have. I still like what the majority he's done but at the same there has been some questionable moves he's made. He had some in Tampa Bay but no one batted an eye there due to all the winning and constant ECF appearances. Detroit was always going to be a bigger work in progress since he didn't have a Stamkos or Hedman on the roster on day 1

 

[Oneiro]

I don't think his UFA signings were "win now" moves. They were "Don't murder the kids while they learn"-moves. And a lot of those guys, from Perron to Maatta, can eventually be flipped or move down the roster.

I think the Hronek trade was savvy - he sees his team clearly and won't compromise to expedite things. This is going to take some time.

 

[Guttersniped]

Let’s take a look at some of his decisions. Long post alert.

2019 Draft: Moritz Seider at 6 was a great pick. But some big misses with that 2nd round pick and pretty much nothing with every pick after Seider. That can be forgiven because you got a #1 D.

19-20 Season: He was able to accumulate a lot of draft capital at the trade deadline and taking on salary. Got a great value trade in Robby Fabbri. Ended the season 31st in the NHL.

2020 draft: Solid pick in Raymond despite sophomore slump this year. Wallinder looks good but all the other picks are still up in the air. No significant signings in the offseason.

20-21 Season: Anthony Mantha trade got them Vrana (eventually lost for nothing), 1st round pick (they used this to trade up to get Cossa), and a 2nd (Dmitri Buchelnikov). Ended the season 27th in the NHL.

2021 Draft: Traded a 2nd round pick and Panik for Leddy for some reason. Acquired Ned for Bernier and a 3rd (really good trade). Drafted the best player available in Edvinsson. Looks like a great pick. He then traded a 1st the 23rd overall (Wyatt Johnston), a 2nd the 48th overall (Artem Grushnikov), and a 5th round pick to move up 8 places to draft Cossa instead of Wallstedt. He drafted Buium 36th (could be a good pick), Mazur 70th (great pick), and Savage 114th (great value player there).

21-22 Season: Resigned Fabbri 3x$4, Vrana 3x 5.25, and Hronek 3x$4.4. Acquired Sundqvist and Walman for Leddy and Witkowski (easily won that trade). Ended the season 25th in the NHL.

2022 Draft: Drafted Marco Kasper 8th overall and looks like agreat pick. Every other puck he made is still up in the air at this point.

22-23 Season: Attempted to expedite the rebuild by trading for Husso for a 3rd round pick signed for 3x$4.75 (.899 sv% this year), signed Kubalik 2x$2.5 (43 points so far this year good value), signed Perron 2x$4.75 (50 points so far this year), and signed Chairot 4x$4.75 (looks like a terrible signing), and a signed Copp 5x$5.625 (41 points so far this year). This season has had its ups and downs but no real progression in the standings.

My conclusion is: he’s done a good job. There isn’t much more he could’ve done. His biggest mistake was attempting to speed up the process. Detroit was absolutely horrible before he took over. What more is he supposed to do in just 3 full seasons?

He’s also flipped Leddy for a better 2nd.

The traded 2021 2nd was #52 and St Louis’ 2023 2nd is now ~#43.

Cossa could be a big misstep but it happens.

 

[Pavels Dog]

I'm not sure how quickly some people expect things to be turned around.

Marco Kasper could become the youngest player to make his Red Wings debut in 30+ years. It's very difficult to fast-track things anymore than is already being done.
Seider won the Calder, Raymond is still just a sophomore, Edvinsson has 5 NHL games, Söderblom/Wallinder/Mazur/etc are on the way.

It's pretty clear that Yzerman has shifted focus to building around the younger core, not the Larkin/Hronek/Bertuzzi/etc. core.

Assuming the Wings don't win the lottery (which they won't), you simply can't expect extremely quick progress. The draft picks need time to develop.

 

[GreytWun]

He took over a dumpster fire with cap issues 4 years ago, and hasn’t drafted in top 3 but you want to critique the yzerplan ?

How about the OP starts but explaining what he would have done differently so we can criticize those moves.

 

[Underdogoil]

All the Wings fans shitting on Ken Holland when he was pushed out of Detroit, look what he has done for Edmonton in just a few short years. look at what the Lightning have done without Yzerman

 

[Pavels Dog]

All the Wings fans shitting on Ken Holland when he was pushed out of Detroit, look what he has done for Edmonton in just a few short years. look at what the Lightning have done without Yzerman

Being a GM is a lot easier when you're starting with McDavid+Draisatl. What core pieces to the Cup winning teams did Tampa add after Yzerman left?

 

[Underdogoil]

Being a GM is a lot easier when you're starting with McDavid+Draisatl. What core pieces to the Cup winning teams did Tampa add after Yzerman left?

Even easier if you have a number 1 goalie like Fluery or Vasilevski, we play the cards we are dealt

 

[Underdogoil]

Even easier if you have a number 1 goalie like Fluery, we play the cards we are dealt

Blake Coleman, Barkley Goodrow, David Savard they wouldn't have won without those moves.

 

[Underdogoil]

McDavid and Draisaitl are a good start if you aren't in cap hell and have a number 1 goalie. Holland was smart enough to protect Skinner and basically let his best defenseman Larsson go to Seatle for nothing.

 

[Miller Time]

I'd be getting worried as a wings fan...

This season gutting the team pre-deadline for meh returns, was really questionable. Playoffs were well within reach until then, hard to see the rationale unless he's going hard after some big trade targets this summer because there's not much available via ufa & those futures won't help much in trying to make playoffs next year.

His Tampa tenure was GM mastery, this go around, not so much.

 

[Underdogoil]

Holland's patience is so impressive, he has signed RNH and Kane to long term team friendly deals because he used it

 

[John Mandalorian]

Bizarre thread.