When does a country enter "Big" status recognition internationally?

[member 305909]

In the future there won't be Russia as a country let alone a Russian hockey-team.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Its more like a big 4 tbh. Canada, USA, Finland and Russia.

What makes Sweden and Czechia the same level as the nation above? Honestly.

Sweden is the same group for sure.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

When it earns it.

If I may borrow a line from Ric Flair

"to be the man you have to beat the man"

Teams like Germany, Latvia, the Swiss, Austria, they can't beat the man

Until they do, they haven't earned it.

 

[Lartsaman]

At this point, I'd argue for Russia not being a top hockey nation. They're not even able to compete internationally and won't be for some time, so they're not a top hockey nation. When and if they return to international hockey, we can again have a conversation about their standing.

Well I dont think their level decreases that much if they are absent for maybe three years. They will be one of the top dogs for sure.

 

[MeHateHe]

You're among the 'best' if at a best-on-best you can beat any of the other best. So if you are within a couple of goals of the rest of the best you are among the best.

This captures Canada, Russia, USA, Finland, Sweden, Czechia, Slovakia. I mean, if any one of these got a hot goalie, they could win one of these tournaments.

 

[Czechboy]

You're among the 'best' if at a best-on-best you can beat any of the other best. So if you are within a couple of goals of the rest of the best you are among the best.

This captures Canada, Russia, USA, Finland, Sweden, Czechia, Slovakia. I mean, if any one of these got a hot goalie, they could win one of these tournaments.

I'll slightly disagree here...

Eg. for sure the Czechs, Danes, Swiss, Slovaks and Latvians could beat anyone at a best on best in one game. The problem is that they usually become cannon fodder after that. Eg. Czechs upset one of the big 5 in a quarter, they usually get smoked in Semi's and Bronze game after.

To win a best on best you have to be good enough to be 3 of the big 5 in a row. I'll use my Czechs so not to piss off the other nations but, currently, no way they could do that consistently at a best on best. I think only 5 nations could do it if you include Russia.

 

[MeHateHe]

I'll slightly disagree here...

Eg. for sure the Czechs, Danes, Swiss, Slovaks and Latvians could beat anyone at a best on best in one game. The problem is that they usually become cannon fodder after that. Eg. Czechs upset one of the big 5 in a quarter, they usually get smoked in Semi's and Bronze game after.

To win a best on best you have to be good enough to be 3 of the big 5 in a row. I'll use my Czechs so not to piss off the other nations but, currently, no way they could do that consistently at a best on best. I think only 5 nations could do it if you include Russia.

You're starting to sound like a certain Swedish poster by lumping the Czechs in with the Danes, Swiss and Latvians.

I think the Swiss or Danes could upset one of the big 7 with a hot goalie, for example, and if the opposition had a bad game. (Too much partying in Nagano, for example). But I think the Czechs and Slovaks, if they had a hot goalie, have enough offense to go on a run and beat multiple teams at a best-on-best. Really, a team gets hot for three games and that's enough to win a tournament like this - sneak into the quarters and then go on a roll and who knows.

Denmark or Switzerland or Latvia could get hot for one game and beat one of the big seven. I don't think any of them could win three in a row against the top teams. I wouldn't argue that the the Czechs or Slovaks have a better top-6 forwards than the other five, but their first two lines are certainly strong enough to get scoring chances against those top five so that if their goalie can hold off (for example) Canada's top lines,

For me, it's not so much that I think that Slovakia or Czechia are necessarily on par with Canada, US and the rest, but I think they are competitive.

 

[MeHateHe]

At the risk of being accused of self-aggrandizement, I will highlight my own thread here:

The (as-always unofficial) annual federation performance rankings

Rankings! Who doesn't love 'em? The 2022 championship season finally ended on the weekend with the conclusion of the U20 Division IIB championship. While the IIHF has rankings for men's and women's senior teams, I thought it might be interesting to see which federation is doing best overall...

forums.hfboards.com

My argument is that a country that lacks a solid junior program is never going to be a threat at the senior level. Great Britain, I'm looking at you: you can't expect to stay at the elite level at senior championships when you're barely competitive at the 1B level in U20 and 2A in U18.

Maybe this is a slightly different discussion, but I think if we're discussing the top nations in hockey, you have to look at the entire program, not just the senior program.

 

[namttebih]

Consistently playing for medals at the men's level.

I agree with this. At the very least, consistently making the quarters, occasionally beating big 6 and never fighting regulation. This pretty much describes the Swiss, Germans, Czechs and Slovaks. With the Latvians, Danes and Belarusians knocking on the door.

 

[Czechboy]

You're starting to sound like a certain Swedish poster by lumping the Czechs in with the Danes, Swiss and Latvians.

I think the Swiss or Danes could upset one of the big 7 with a hot goalie, for example, and if the opposition had a bad game. (Too much partying in Nagano, for example). But I think the Czechs and Slovaks, if they had a hot goalie, have enough offense to go on a run and beat multiple teams at a best-on-best. Really, a team gets hot for three games and that's enough to win a tournament like this - sneak into the quarters and then go on a roll and who knows.

Denmark or Switzerland or Latvia could get hot for one game and beat one of the big seven. I don't think any of them could win three in a row against the top teams. I wouldn't argue that the the Czechs or Slovaks have a better top-6 forwards than the other five, but their first two lines are certainly strong enough to get scoring chances against those top five so that if their goalie can hold off (for example) Canada's top lines,

For me, it's not so much that I think that Slovakia or Czechia are necessarily on par with Canada, US and the rest, but I think they are competitive.

I think at best on best a lot of posters think that, say, Canada would just kick the shit out of everybody but I actually think the best on best is the most competitive (compared to U20 for instance).

Swiss have an insane group of forwards and Josi
Denmark have Ehlers and Andersson in net and some real good pieces
Slovakia have a great generation coming up and some established NHL guys
Germany can boast a very good NHL goalie, a future Norris contender, Drai and then Stutzl, Reichel (finally making waves) and a few other great pieces.
Latvia have NHL goalies and play with so much pride

Basically, in a best on best, they are all a world class pain in the ass in a one game showdown.lol And we've seen Canada's best on best struggle with the Swiss, Slovakia and Latvia in previous tourneys too.

And unlike a certain poster (who I enjoy) I don't think Czechs are there yet to be with the big boys. We are in a very strange spot behind the big 5 and with more depth than the next 5. The strangest 6 in history.lol

 

[MeHateHe]

Basically, in a best on best, they are all a world class pain in the ass in a one game showdown.lol And we've seen Canada's best on best struggle with the Swiss, Slovakia and Latvia in previous tourneys too.

Perspective is everything, I guess. I get how frustrating it is to have had lots of success in the past, but not so much recently. I get it, because I am a Habs fan.

But while the Czechs (and Slovaks) aren't as scary as they were in past years, as a Canada fan, I will take a quarterfinal game against the Swiss or the Germans before a quarterfinal game against the Czechs or Slovaks. Sure, the Swiss have given Canada a scare, but if Canada is playing at or near the top of their game, neither of those teams will beat Canada in a best-on-best. Canada can bottle up the top German line and find a way to score a couple, even if they have a goaltender having an best-ever day. (I know how snooty that sounds, but whatever. A) Germany can prove me wrong, and B) I think the same is true if the German opponent is the US or Finland or even, shock of shocks, Sweden. Don't tell that other guy.)

With the Czechs, and to a lesser extent, the Slovaks, I see more of a risk that a hot goaltender could beat Canada. It's not just that the Czechs, and to a lesser extent, the Slovaks, have more offensive weapons, they also play with a relentless style that makes them a little more dangerous. We like to say you don't want Germany or Switzerland to hang around in games because one mistake in those games and then the Germans go into a defensive shell and then the game is like a nut you have to crack open. It seems to me that when playing against the Czechs, they have more of a likelihood than those others of scoring a few in a quick flurry. So it's not as much about trying to overcome a 1-goal lead, you might be trying to overcome a 2 or 3-goal lead against a team that has a lot more ability to counterattack than a team like Germany.

Despite the lack of recent success, I do see a lot more of a confidence in Czechia and Slovakia's game, and that sets them a long way apart from Germany and Switzerland.

(Also, sorry to the Germans and Swiss on this thread. Not really slagging you, but more thinking that you have another hill to climb to be among the top 7.)

 

[Goodman68]

Perspective is everything, I guess. I get how frustrating it is to have had lots of success in the past, but not so much recently. I get it, because I am a Habs fan.

But while the Czechs (and Slovaks) aren't as scary as they were in past years, as a Canada fan, I will take a quarterfinal game against the Swiss or the Germans before a quarterfinal game against the Czechs or Slovaks. Sure, the Swiss have given Canada a scare, but if Canada is playing at or near the top of their game, neither of those teams will beat Canada in a best-on-best. Canada can bottle up the top German line and find a way to score a couple, even if they have a goaltender having an best-ever day. (I know how snooty that sounds, but whatever. A) Germany can prove me wrong, and B) I think the same is true if the German opponent is the US or Finland or even, shock of shocks, Sweden. Don't tell that other guy.)

With the Czechs, and to a lesser extent, the Slovaks, I see more of a risk that a hot goaltender could beat Canada. It's not just that the Czechs, and to a lesser extent, the Slovaks, have more offensive weapons, they also play with a relentless style that makes them a little more dangerous. We like to say you don't want Germany or Switzerland to hang around in games because one mistake in those games and then the Germans go into a defensive shell and then the game is like a nut you have to crack open. It seems to me that when playing against the Czechs, they have more of a likelihood than those others of scoring a few in a quick flurry. So it's not as much about trying to overcome a 1-goal lead, you might be trying to overcome a 2 or 3-goal lead against a team that has a lot more ability to counterattack than a team like Germany.

Despite the lack of recent success, I do see a lot more of a confidence in Czechia and Slovakia's game, and that sets them a long way apart from Germany and Switzerland.

(Also, sorry to the Germans and Swiss on this thread. Not really slagging you, but more thinking that you have another hill to climb to be among the top 7.)

The Swiss certainly have a stronger team than Slovakia now, they undoubtedly have stronger players in the NHL and it's not even close. Moreover, their domestic league players are used to a high level of play. If we accept the opinion that the Czechs are in full force in sixth place in the world, then the Swiss are currently seventh. Interesting players are growing up in Slovakia, but now Switzerland is even better.

 

[Czechboy]

The Swiss certainly have a stronger team than Slovakia now, they undoubtedly have stronger players in the NHL and it's not even close. Moreover, their domestic league players are used to a high level of play. If we accept the opinion that the Czechs are in full force in sixth place in the world, then the Swiss are currently seventh. Interesting players are growing up in Slovakia, but now Switzerland is even better.

BUT the last 3 drafts favor the Slovaks! Swiss are not getting many guys drafted lately and even had a year with no guys drafted. Otherwise I agree... Swiss have Josi and some very good forwards.

 

[Goodman68]

BUT the last 3 drafts favor the Slovaks! Swiss are not getting many guys drafted lately and even had a year with no guys drafted. Otherwise I agree... Swiss have Josi and some very good forwards.

Yes, we also wrote about it here several times. But now and in previous years, Switzerland was clearly better. It's hard to say how long it will take the Slovaks to make up for the loss, even with Slafkovský we can see that they have a long way to go.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Canada - won last 3 best on bests
US - won one in 1996

I get the paper rosters are similar but the trophy cases are vastly different.

Last 3 best on bests were 2014, 2010, and 2006. Canada only won 2 of them.

1976- Canada
1981 - USSR
1984 - Canada
1987 - Canada
1996 - USA
1998 - Czech Republic
2002 - Canada
2004 - Canada
2006 - Sweden
2010 - Canada
2014 - Canada

Not really a good argument for any other tournament to be included

 

[moropanov]

Russia should be excluded when talking about hockey nations they are not participating and its propable they will never play again in IIHF's tournaments under Russian flag that country will split like Soviet union did.

 

[Czechboy]

Last 3 best on bests were 2014, 2010, and 2006. Canada only won 2 of them.

1976- Canada
1981 - USSR
1984 - Canada
1987 - Canada
1996 - USA
1998 - Czech Republic
2002 - Canada
2004 - Canada
2006 - Sweden
2010 - Canada
2014 - Canada

Not really a good argument for any other tournament to be included

So if you don't want to include the world cup (which is fine by me, I hated that shit) then Canada has won 4 of the last 5 best on bests. And back to back world Juniors. 6 of the last 7 Skoda cup finals too.

 

[Peiskos]

Last 3 best on bests were 2014, 2010, and 2006. Canada only won 2 of them.

1976- Canada
1981 - USSR
1984 - Canada
1987 - Canada
1996 - USA
1998 - Czech Republic
2002 - Canada
2004 - Canada
2006 - Sweden
2010 - Canada
2014 - Canada

Not really a good argument for any other tournament to be included

Of those 11 tournaments you listed Canada has won 7 of them though which is incredible. Historically it's been mainly Canada winning these best vs best tournaments. Even the botched 2016 World Cup they won and some of those other teams were loaded, Sweden for example had its A team.

 

[Lambo]

Of those 11 tournaments you listed Canada has won 7 of them though which is incredible. Historically it's been mainly Canada winning these best vs best tournaments. Even the botched 2016 World Cup they won and some of those other teams were loaded, Sweden for example had its A team.

Yes, Canada's position of power in hockey is undisputed. But how many best on best tournaments took place on Canadian and North American soil? 6 Right? The only tournament outside of Canada that won was in Sochi. Otherwise Canada has had some problems away.

 

[Albatros]

Russia should be excluded when talking about hockey nations they are not participating and its propable they will never play again in IIHF's tournaments under Russian flag that country will split like Soviet union did.

Even if there's eventually going to be a successor state (or several) it'll probably enter a period of recovery in sports along with more general normalization, if we look at the countries of former Yugoslavia they soon reached or even exceeded previous highs in a number of sports despite rather extreme political fragmentation.

 

[Peiskos]

Yes, Canada's position of power in hockey is undisputed. But how many best on best tournaments took place on Canadian and North American soil? 6 Right? The only tournament outside of Canada that won was in Sochi. Otherwise Canada has had some problems away.

That's only because Canada has hosted more best vs best tournaments, if Canada had its best in 2018 they would have won in South Korea and I'm pretty confident about that. In terms of general hockey success Canada hasn't really struggled outside NA, while not best vs best all 27 of Canada's IIHF world championships have come in Europe for example.

 

[Lambo]

That's only because Canada has hosted more best vs best tournaments, if Canada had its best in 2018 they would have won in South Korea and I'm pretty confident about that. In terms of general hockey success Canada hasn't really struggled outside NA, while not best vs best all 27 of Canada's IIHF world championships have come in Europe for example.

Well, we can't get any further with the subjunctive. Canada was still world champion in times (e.g. 20s in the 20th century) when ice hockey was a different sport and no competitive conditions took place. But speaking of the subjunctive. Had it also been a "Soviet Cup", Canada would not have won anything there.

 

[Peiskos]

Well, we can't get any further with the subjunctive. Canada was still world champion in times (e.g. 20s in the 20th century) when ice hockey was a different sport and no competitive conditions took place. But speaking of the subjunctive. Had it also been a "Soviet Cup", Canada would not have won anything there.

Hmm idk making proclamations that Canada wouldn't have won anything at potential hockey tournaments is silly.

 

[tmlms13]

I'd define it as some like "In a best on best do you have a legitimate shot of medaling without having to ask are you in a 'Golden Age' of your national team " i.e. Germany right now could medal but the second they lose Drai they won't. Slovakia is right on the border but I think they still do that up and down depending on era so it's tough to include them in the "Big"

Canada, USA, Finland, Sweden, Russia, Czechia. Doesn't matter what year it is you know they will compete.

 

[I Hart Conor Garland]

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