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When does a country enter "Big" status recognition internationally?

How do you think "Big" hockey country status should be determined?

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1989

1989

Registered User
Aug 3, 2010
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In international hockey, it's generally recognized there's the "Big 6" status conferred to Canada, Russia, USA, Finland and Sweden, and Czech Republic per Wikipedia.
Many have won a combination of World Championship/Olympics/Juniors/World Cup golds as well as being able to fill out complete rosters of NHL regulars.

Then there's also an accepted secondary tier of Slovaks, Swiss, and German national teams.
  • When can a secondary hockey power begin to call itself a Big nation / When does a team drop out of consideration?
  • Is it a lack of wins at the international levels, a lack of NHL-quality players, or both?
  • Does tournament level hold weight, e.g. World Championship have less weight than Juniors or Olympics?
    • How much does timespan/consistency matter?
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Everything is a relative. In the grand scheme of things, Latvia is a big hockey nation that that would wipe the floor with almost every other country in the world.

But to be in the conversation of the "big 6", "big 7" or "big whatever" it has to be a combinaton of things.
 
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To answer your question… there really is no answer. It’s all very nebulous. The fact that they were calling it a “Big 6” and including Czechia is news to me and probably a bunch of people on here.

Obviously, all the things on the list you posted come into play. Also, not just winning championships, but being competitive in them. Take the World Juniors for example; Sweden is always competitive in it, but has just two Gold Medals in nearly 50 years of action. We still count them though, so they won’t feel left out. :sarcasm:
 
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there is no right answer.

For years Germany and the Swiss were considered to be at the same level as Latvia and Austria. Now both are considered to be above those countries.

It comes down to how they perform against the good teams?
 
I voted for the "must be a combination of the above" as most people, but I see the number of NHL players as the most important consideration. Over the last 10 or 15 years it was more like the "Big 5+1", as the Czechs have been struggling with some deep structural issues and have been consistently below the No. 5 country, Finland, yet, in the ongoing NHL season, they still have exactly the same number of NHL players as the next tier of hockey nations - Switzerland, Germany, Slovakia and Denmark - combined.
 
Statsy said:
We all love best on best, but it’s just too rare of an occurrence. You simply have to take these other championships with a grain of salt.
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There haven’t been a relevant international cup in a decade. So not only a grain of salt but I would argue they shouldn’t be taken into consideration at all. I mean this years wjc didn’t even have Russia compete.
 
OskarOskarius said:
There haven’t been a relevant international cup in a decade. So not only a grain of salt but I would argue they shouldn’t be taken into consideration at all. I mean this years wjc didn’t even have Russia compete.
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It's pretty rough that it's been nearly a decade. However, we still need to be able to compare and contrast teams and the flawed competitions we currently have are all we have to go on. Still better than trying to write player lists in a hockey forum and judging them off of that.
 
I didn't know we were in a big 6 to be honest. I've called it a big 5 for a decade now and now a big 4 with Russia not playing.

Czechs are in a weird spot.. we aren't there yet with the big 5 but we routinely have more guys drafted than everyone beneath us combined. We have had 37 guys play in the NHL this season and that would be more than anyone behind us by a lot.

How do Czechs make it a big 6? I think it comes down to roster depth and consistent production.

Eg. in 2005 .. both the Czechs and Finns went on a big medal draught at the World Jr's. I think maybe 8 years. Then the Finn's won a gold and then they won another and it took off. We did not and now the Finn's are ahead of us.

The big 5 is stable while the rest are not. The US and Russia rarely win gold at the adult level but are still big 5 because of consistently strong paper rosters.

No one in the big 5 is in danger of dropping out and the Czechs need about 4 guys to make it back in the conversation. All 4 would have to be very good NHL D. They'd also have to keep getting 1 or 2 guys drafted in round 1 consistently. So they're close but not there yet. No guarantee they'll ever get there too!
 
Czechboy said:
The big 5 is stable while the rest are not. The US and Russia rarely win gold at the adult level but are still big 5 because of consistently strong paper rosters.
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Russia actually won pretty regularly when they participated. Their last one was 2014 but they´ve been close and also won Olympics in 2018. Usa wins "rarely", like never.
 
Lartsaman said:
Russia actually won pretty regularly when they participated. Their last one was 2014 but they´ve been close and also won Olympics in 2018. Usa wins "rarely", like never.
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I agree Russia is great at hockey. But the Gold's aren't there. 2014 for Senior and 2011 for Junior.. that's a long time for such a deep pool.

You're right, I didn't include the olympics. To be clear, if Czechs had won them I would still be celebrating but I consider them a talent level below the Skoda Cup (which is by far my fav tournament in hockey despite it's flaws).
 
Lartsaman said:
Russia actually won pretty regularly when they participated. Their last one was 2014 but they´ve been close and also won Olympics in 2018. Usa wins "rarely", like never.
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This is shockingly true, in terms of mens level you have to go back to the 1996 World Cup of Hockey for the last gold medal the US program took home at the senior level. Of the "Big 6" the US is the only one who's last gold at senior level came in the 20th century.

Finland - 2022 WC
Canada - 2021 WC
Sweden - 2018 WC
Russia - 2018 Olympics
Czechia - 2010 WC
USA - 1996 World Cup

In fact even countries outside the "Big 6" have taken a senior gold more recently such as :

Slovakia : 2002 WC
 
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XeroKaos said:
This is shockingly true, in terms of mens level you have to go back to the 1996 World Cup of Hockey for the last gold medal the US program took home at the senior level. Of the "Big 6" the US is the only one who's last gold at senior level came in the 20th century.

Finland - 2022 WC
Canada - 2021 WC
Sweden - 2018 WC
Russia - 2018 Olympics
Czechia - 2010 WC
USA - 1996 World Cup

In fact even countries outside the "Big 6" have taken a senior gold more recently such as :

Slovakia : 2002 WC
Click to expand...
This is why I get 'cranky' when people come on and say it's Canada and the US and everyone else at a best on best!
 
1989 said:
In international hockey, it's generally recognized there's the "Big 6" status conferred to Canada, Russia, USA, Finland and Sweden, and Czech Republic per Wikipedia.
Many have won a combination of World Championship/Olympics/Juniors/World Cup golds as well as being able to fill out complete rosters of NHL regulars.

Then there's also an accepted secondary tier of Slovaks, Swiss, and German national teams.
  • When can a secondary hockey power begin to call itself a Big nation / When does a team drop out of consideration?
  • Is it a lack of wins at the international levels, a lack of NHL-quality players, or both?
  • Does tournament level hold weight, e.g. World Championship have less weight than Juniors or Olympics?
    • How much does timespan/consistency matter?
Click to expand...

Average tournament finish at every level in a 10-year period is closer to the top 6.

XeroKaos said:
This is shockingly true, in terms of mens level you have to go back to the 1996 World Cup of Hockey for the last gold medal the US program took home at the senior level. Of the "Big 6" the US is the only one who's last gold at senior level came in the 20th century.

Finland - 2022 WC
Canada - 2021 WC
Sweden - 2018 WC
Russia - 2018 Olympics
Czechia - 2010 WC
USA - 1996 World Cup

In fact even countries outside the "Big 6" have taken a senior gold more recently such as :

Slovakia : 2002 WC
Click to expand...

You can't just look at winning, the US is often in semi-finals and finals. It's about mean performance over a long-ish sample size.
 
SOLR said:
Average tournament finish at every level in a 10-year period is closer to the top 6.



You can't just look at winning, the US is often in semi-finals and finals. It's about mean performance over a long-ish sample size.
Click to expand...

At the end of the day the hardware is still the ultimate barometer. I was just replying to a comment that mentioned how the US rarely wins at the senior level, which is true.
 
XeroKaos said:
This is shockingly true, in terms of mens level you have to go back to the 1996 World Cup of Hockey for the last gold medal the US program took home at the senior level. Of the "Big 6" the US is the only one who's last gold at senior level came in the 20th century.

Finland - 2022 WC
Canada - 2021 WC
Sweden - 2018 WC
Russia - 2018 Olympics
Czechia - 2010 WC
USA - 1996 World Cup

In fact even countries outside the "Big 6" have taken a senior gold more recently such as :

Slovakia : 2002 WC
Click to expand...
yeah kind of shocking. Should be said that Russia dont win many gold medals either, neither in WJC, best on best and WC.
 
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At this point, I'd argue for Russia not being a top hockey nation. They're not even able to compete internationally and won't be for some time, so they're not a top hockey nation. When and if they return to international hockey, we can again have a conversation about their standing.
 
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