When Did You Start To Notice A Slip In Gretzky's Game

[johan f]

In that stage of his career he did not really play well, points would come anyway.

 

[The Panther]

In that stage of his career he did not really play well, points would come anyway.

"Points would come"....? Er, no. Points don't just "come".

The Rangers were a lower-scoring team than the Avs or Pens (about even with Canucks), yet Gretzky at 37 matched Jagr, Forsberg, and Bure in scoring when they were mid-20s and playing on better teams with better teammates. There is therefore no reason to think those players teleported to 1984 would have done amazingly better than they did. I do agree they would have been able to score perhaps 140 points once or twice, and maybe 155 for Jagr, but they would not have been near Gretzky.

 

[johan f]

I watched games back then. Even remember how I thought Gretz scored points but was not involved and the same asset in the GAME as the younger players. So I will never change my mind that points is not the sole thing to determine a player. This is not a knock on Gretz since i think he is the best player ever. I just say that in final years he was not that good as the other players in same pointrange. There are many many reasons why, what role playrs have in their respective teams, how they are matched, how they are shadowed etc etc.

 

[McGuillicuddy]

Player (PPG)

Jagr (1.32)
Forsberg (1.26)
Bure (1.10)
Gretzky (1.10)

Indeed. By this time Gretzky was a nearly worn-out dinosaur by hockey standards, and only a shadow of his former self, yet still managed to hang with the league elite. There is little to suggest that these same players would have been any more dominant in the 80s than they were in the late 90s/early 2000s.

 

[Jacob]

I wonder how Gary Suter feels for being most remembered for curtailing the careers of two players significantly more talented than he was.

Probably crying into a big pile of money and trophies I guess.

 

[Terry Yake]

I wonder how Gary Suter feels for being most remembered for curtailing the careers of two players significantly more talented than he was.

Probably crying into a big pile of money and trophies I guess.

he probably couldn't care less. guy was one of the dirtiest pieces of trash to ever play the game

 

[tazzy19]

From the 1997-1998 season:

Player (age) PTS
Jaromir Jagr (25) 102
Peter Forsberg (24) 91
Pavel Bure (26) 90
Wayne Gretzky (36) 90

I know this is nitpicking, but Gretz was 37, not 36 that year. At that stage--in the late 30s--a year can make a big difference. I think his 37 year old campaign was probably one of his most impressive when you consider how much he would have had to push himself when some nights there was just no gas left in the old tank. To see him score almost 50% of his team's points, without any scoring wingers (which is usually how he would get most of his points), with a team that missed the playoffs....at age 37. Crazy. Imagine if he had been playing for Colorado like Forsberg? He probably would have won the scoring title. At age 37.

 

[The Panther]

Let's also pause to remember that Bure's best seasons (110 and 107 points) overlap with Gretzky's 130-point scoring title (age age 33).

 

[Sentinel]

Heh and you of course realise that that was a 37 year old Gretzky right?

Not a 20 something and not even a 33-35 year old Gretzky.

But you are not disputing the scoring in the league also dropped, are you?

Nobody is saying Jagr or Bure or Crosby would match Gretzky's totals in the 80s. But it's reasonable to think their point totals would be higher than they were in the 90s-00s.

 

[Sentinel]

On a different point: I don't remember who did Gretzky play with in NYR? There was Leetch on D, but who were his wingers?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

On a different point: I don't remember who did Gretzky play with in NYR? There was Leetch on D, but who were his wingers?

IN 1997-98 (37 year old Gretzky scored 90 points, tied with Bure for 3rd in scoring, 1 point behind Forsberg for 2nd in scoring, Gretzky was also 5th in Hart voting), this is the Rangers roster. It's pretty terrible:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYR/1998.html

(I know that didn't directly answer your question).

 

[Sentinel]

IN 1997-98 (37 year old Gretzky scored 90 points, tied with Bure for 3rd in scoring, 1 point behind Forsberg for 2nd in scoring, Gretzky was also 5th in Hart voting), this is the Rangers roster. It's pretty terrible:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/NYR/1998.html

(I know that didn't directly answer your question).

Not THAT terrible. Kovalev, Lafontaine, Sundstrom, Stevens, Keane (excellent defensive forward), Leetch, Richter...

 

[TouringReg]

On a different point: I don't remember who did Gretzky play with in NYR? There was Leetch on D, but who were his wingers?

Off the top of my head I think he spent some time with washed up Kevin Stevens and John MacLean as well as Niklas Sundstrum. Those lineups his last two years with NYR are just putrid. I would love to have seen Wayne finish his career with a playoff team. That 1997 playoff to he had was a lot of fun.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Not THAT terrible. Kovalev, Weight, Sandstrom, Keane (excellent defensive forward), Leetch, Richter...

I assume you mean Lafontaine, not Weight. And of course, that team was loaded with big names. That was the 1998-2004 Rangers - loaded with big names who underperformed.

Thing is that after Gretzky's 90 points, next highest on the team was concussion-adled Lafontaine (who I believe centered the 2nd line, in other words didn't play with Gretzky at even strength at least) with 62 points. Kovalev was the highest scoring winger with 23 goals and 53 points. Only 4 20+ goal scorers on the entire team - Gretzky, Lafontaine, Kovalev, and Graves, all with exactly 23 goals each. Pretty amazing that Gretzky was able to get 67 assists when nobody on the team had more than 23 goals.

But anyway, back on topic, Gretzky of the Rangers was a pure perimeter player. Didn't do much in transition either, but man did he still thrive in his "office" behind the net.

 

[The Panther]

As someone alerted me to earlier, Gretz had a much stronger second half than first half.

After the All-Star break, he had 45 points in 35 games. Bure had 37, Forsberg 32 (in 26 games), Jagr 46. The Rangers were 10W-19L-6T during this period of Gretzky's resurgence.

March 1998 was probably the last great month (by normal standards) of his career. He had 23 points in 15 games.

The last 6-point game of his career was on Nov.16th, 1995, L.A. vs. NYI (1 goal, 5 assists).
The last 5-point game of his career was on Feb. 15th, 1999, @ Nashville (5 assists).
The last hat-trick was on Oct. 11th, 1997, @ Vancouver (3 goals, 2 assists).
The last 3-point game was on February 4th, 1999 vs. Vancouver (1 goal, 2 assists).

 

[SealsFan]

Just look at what Gretzky was doing in 1984. Check the slow motion segment between 5:45 to 6:12 or so. Also check out all of his 8 points. His first goal...he makes it look so easy. Turning on a dime. Losing Neil Broten like he's a pee wee.... His 4th goal? Absurd. His first assist to Kurri...are you kidding me?! He should have broken Sitler's record this game. He had 8 points by the 2nd period.

Ahhh, the 80's. When 8 goals was not enough to win...

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

As someone alerted me to earlier, Gretz had a much stronger second half than first half.

After the All-Star break, he had 45 points in 35 games. Bure had 37, Forsberg 32 (in 26 games), Jagr 46. The Rangers were 10W-19L-6T during this period of Gretzky's resurgence.

March 1998 was probably the last great month (by normal standards) of his career. He had 23 points in 15 games.

The last 6-point game of his career was on Nov.16th, 1995, L.A. vs. NYI (1 goal, 5 assists).
The last 5-point game of his career was on Feb. 15th, 1999, @ Nashville (5 assists).
The last hat-trick was on Oct. 11th, 1997, @ Vancouver (3 goals, 2 assists).
The last 3-point game was on February 4th, 1999 vs. Vancouver (1 goal, 2 assists).

Didn't that surge coincide with Peter Forsberg's father making a comment about how Gretzky was done and was embarassing himself (or something to that effect)?

Ya just don't say stuff like that about players like that!

 

[Sens Rule]

I watched games back then. Even remember how I thought Gretz scored points but was not involved and the same asset in the GAME as the younger players. So I will never change my mind that points is not the sole thing to determine a player. This is not a knock on Gretz since i think he is the best player ever. I just say that in final years he was not that good as the other players in same pointrange. There are many many reasons why, what role playrs have in their respective teams, how they are matched, how they are shadowed etc etc.

I would agree Gretzky was probably not the 4th or 5th best forward in the league when he was in his 2nd and 3rd last seasons. He was probably not quite as good as his pure points would suggest.

I do think he was even BETTER then his points suggested when he was getting 200ish points a year. I think he was probably the best defensive forward, best PK forward, best PP forward and best ES forward for like 5 or 6 straight seasons. I really think he was the best defensively too at his best. Not in a typical way at all. But he controlled the game so much. Other teams covered him when THEY had the puck. I bet he would have had easily the most takeaways in the league by huge margins if that stat was recorded in his peak. Gretzky's peak is not even really done justice by his absurd stats. The Rangers version of Gretzky... Who led the league in assists and was top 4 in scoring was a small fraction of peak Gretzky. They are not even really comparable at all. He was like 30% as good as he was at his peak. Not like an aged Sakic or Alfredsson or other great players in their late 30's who were like 75-80% of their peak. Old Gretzky was still very good but is so far off his peak that he is not even the same player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I would agree Gretzky was probably not the 4th or 5th best forward in the league when he was in his 2nd and 3rd last seasons. He was probably not quite as good as his pure points would suggest.

I do think he was even BETTER then his points suggested when he was getting 200ish points a year. I think he was probably the best defensive forward, best PK forward, best PP forward and best ES forward for like 5 or 6 straight seasons. I really think he was the best defensively too at his best. Not in a typical way at all. But he controlled the game so much. Other teams covered him when THEY had the puck. I bet he would have had easily the most takeaways in the league by huge margins if that stat was recorded in his peak. Gretzky's peak is not even really done justice by his absurd stats. The Rangers version of Gretzky... Who led the league in assists and was top 4 in scoring was a small fraction of peak Gretzky. They are not even really comparable at all. He was like 30% as good as he was at his peak. Not like an aged Sakic or Alfredsson or other great players in their late 30's who were like 75-80% of their peak. Old Gretzky was still very good but is so far off his peak that he is not even the same player.

Meh... Gretzky was a better all-round player than sometimes given credit for, but isn't Kurri often given credit for playing the center's role in the defensive zone, which helped allow Gretzky to play the way he did?

 

[tazzy19]

I would agree Gretzky was probably not the 4th or 5th best forward in the league when he was in his 2nd and 3rd last seasons. He was probably not quite as good as his pure points would suggest.

I do think he was even BETTER then his points suggested when he was getting 200ish points a year. I think he was probably the best defensive forward, best PK forward, best PP forward and best ES forward for like 5 or 6 straight seasons. I really think he was the best defensively too at his best. Not in a typical way at all. But he controlled the game so much. Other teams covered him when THEY had the puck. I bet he would have had easily the most takeaways in the league by huge margins if that stat was recorded in his peak. Gretzky's peak is not even really done justice by his absurd stats. The Rangers version of Gretzky... Who led the league in assists and was top 4 in scoring was a small fraction of peak Gretzky. They are not even really comparable at all. He was like 30% as good as he was at his peak. Not like an aged Sakic or Alfredsson or other great players in their late 30's who were like 75-80% of their peak. Old Gretzky was still very good but is so far off his peak that he is not even the same player.

I can see where you're going with this, and I agree with most of it, though -- having watched just about every Ranger game that season (1997-98) -- I honestly think Gretzky was better than his points suggested. He could have scored 20 more points easily had his wingers finished even half the plays they should have. And had he been on the same teams that the other top 3 scorers were on, he would have won the Art Ross that season. I also remember hearing John Davidson say during one of the last games of the season that he led the entire NHL in scoring from the Christmas break on. So while I agree with you that Gretzky was not close to his prime self, he was still better than his 90 points suggested IMO.

 

[Mr. Fancy Pants]

Off the top of my head I think he spent some time with washed up Kevin Stevens and John MacLean as well as Niklas Sundstrum. Those lineups his last two years with NYR are just putrid. I would love to have seen Wayne finish his career with a playoff team. That 1997 playoff to he had was a lot of fun.

I recently watched Game 2 of the conference finals between the Rangers and Flyers in the NHL Vault. Gretzky scored his record 10th playoff hat trick. He could still be amazing to watch even then. If you have NHL Vault, definitely a great game to watch.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I can see where you're going with this, and I agree with most of it, though -- having watched just about every Ranger game that season (1997-98) -- I honestly think Gretzky was better than his points suggested. He could have scored 20 more points easily had his wingers finished even half the plays they should have. And had he been on the same teams that the other top 3 scorers were on, he would have won the Art Ross that season. I also remember hearing John Davidson say during one of the last games of the season that he led the entire NHL in scoring from the Christmas break on. So while I agree with you that Gretzky was not close to his prime self, he was still better than his 90 points suggested IMO.

He was pretty far behind Jagr for it to just be the result of teammates.

Jagr had Francis and little else, like Gretz had Leetch and little else: http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PIT/1998.html

 

[tazzy19]

He was pretty far behind Jagr for it to just be the result of teammates.

Jagr had Francis and little else, like Gretz had Leetch and little else: http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PIT/1998.html

Jagr had a better team, and had Francis centering him. Put it this way: Can you imagine Jagr's point totals if he had Gretzky centering him? They'd be even more impressive. Gretzky meanwhile had very little help from the forwards. Leetch was not playing to his abilities that year (dropping to the tune of around 30 points from his last couple years prior), and he was not contributing to the lacking forward depth whatsoever since he was a defenseman.

Now put Gretzky with Colorado or Vancouver that year, and he most certainly wins the Art Ross.

 

[blogofmike]

On a different point: I don't remember who did Gretzky play with in NYR? There was Leetch on D, but who were his wingers?

Mostly sundstrom playing as a defensive winger.

97 was Robitaille + Sundstrom. He played with Courtnall or tikkanen on his wing after injuries mounted in the playoffs, or on Messier's wing.

98 was Sundstrom + Stevens. Kovalev took Stevens' place late in the season and looked good as a combo. He never played too much with Kovalev though.

99 was a smattering of wingers. Ended up on Graves and Maclean. There was some Stevens Sundstrom and when he was healthy, I remember Todd Harvey gettin shifts with him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jagr had a better team, and had Francis centering him. Put it this way: Can you imagine Jagr's point totals if he had Gretzky centering him? They'd be even more impressive. Gretzky meanwhile had very little help from the forwards. Leetch was not playing to his abilities that year (dropping to the tune of around 30 points from his last couple years prior), and he was not contributing to the lacking forward depth whatsoever since he was a defenseman.

Now put Gretzky with Colorado or Vancouver that year, and he most certainly wins the Art Ross.

I really think you're reaching. A 12 point difference is quite large when the Art Ross winner has 102 points.