When Did You Start To Notice A Slip In Gretzky's Game

[tazzy19]

You can watch the full play here (start at 22:50)

Wow, kind of eerie to think this was the last 22:50 of Gretzky's prime.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You would think so but consider he left team mates in Edmonton he literally raised from marginal NHL prospects to world class players that knew eachothers every move.

In LA he had to start from scratch and basically 'train' all the players to play with him. In my opinion Gretzkys 168 points in his first season in LA without knowing any of the personnel or coaching is just as impressive as his 200 point seasons from 84 -86 when Messier, Anderson Coffey Kurri and others knew how to play with him.

Wayne had a great first year in LA and was somewhat deserving of his Hart, although if it went to Mario would anyone really complain?

Taht being said with Wayne they were first in the NHL in goals with 376, the year before they were 5th in goals with 318.

They also went from 21st in GA to 16th which is quite a difference.

Save % went from .863 to .880 as well, not entirely sure how much Wayne had to do with that directly but his leadership and work ethic and persona probably had a lot to do with it.

As for the OP Wayne became a different type of player before he declined so its hard to tell when he really declined.

There are 2 clear drops in his goal scoring prowess after 85 and 91 but he was still Gretzky and in the playoffs he would still do his best work in the 93 playoffs which were incredible for him, even for him.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Oh, come on. This is your silliest one yet.

The game is simply not as physical now as it was in the 80s or 90s. Back then, a crosscheck to the face was considered 'being a competitor'.

There have always been players who struggled to stay healthy.

All one has to do is watch the games and look at the injuries that occurred to elite star players between the 2 different time periods.

The increase in contact, at speed and with more mass at play, is also evident, just watch some games between the 2 different time periods.

But I know facts are silly right?

 

[Big Phil]

I remember seeing Gretzky in 1991-'92 and you realized immediately he wasn't quite the same player. Even with Mario's help or not, there is no way a normal Gretzky lets Kevin Stevens out point him even by just two. It wouldn't happen. In fact, it never did. The only other times in his career where another player outpointed him was Dionne in 1980 (and that was a tie) and Lemieux twice.

 

[tazzy19]

I remember seeing Gretzky in 1991-'92 and you realized immediately he wasn't quite the same player. Even with Mario's help or not, there is no way a normal Gretzky lets Kevin Stevens out point him even by just two. It wouldn't happen. In fact, it never did. The only other times in his career where another player outpointed him was Dionne in 1980 (and that was a tie) and Lemieux twice.

I agree. The Gretzky of old didn't reemerge until after a (something like 16 game) scoreless streak after he came back from his herniated disc injury the following year in 1992-93 (which most say was catalyzed by the Gary Suter hit), when he exploded for 5 points after one of the biggest slumps in his career. From that point on, until the early part of the 1993-94 season (at which point he was on pace for a 180 point season after the first month), he was The Great One again. After the Kings made it obvious they were not in it to win it, Gretzky seemed to slow down, and then his age started to show, despite that one last scoring title.

 

[Supreme King]

You would think so but consider he left team mates in Edmonton he literally raised from marginal NHL prospects to world class players that knew eachothers every move.

In LA he had to start from scratch and basically 'train' all the players to play with him. In my opinion Gretzkys 168 points in his first season in LA without knowing any of the personnel or coaching is just as impressive as his 200 point seasons from 84 -86 when Messier, Anderson Coffey Kurri and others knew how to play with him.

Well said. True fans of the game realize what an adjustment that had to be.

Speaks volumes to the player and true professional Gretzky was. I know injuries are part of the game but if he plays a full 80 games that year (he played 78) he gets 170+ points.

 

[shazariahl]

Like others have said, after 1991. Watch him in the 1991 Canada Cup. I'll say he was every bit as good as 1987. In 1987 he had Lemieux with him, but in 1991 he was literally just a one-man show. Still shifty, still same old Gretzky. If there was a drop off from his Oiler days it was very minimal. Post 1991 is when you noticed it.

He did score more goals at different times but he still racked up the points. He just had more assists. In fact there are only three other seasons in his career where he had more assists than in 1991. He shifted emphasis on goals to assists a bit more but that was it. He was still as dangerous as ever.

Then a slow decline after 1991 that led up to 1999 where he really was "finished" by his standards. He just got older and slower and you could tell his back was wearing on him.

He also had the arthritis in his shoulder, that went undiagnosed for his entire career. Apparently he thought it was just a side effect of the back injury, which it might have been, but he never thought to get it treated because he thought it was his back.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

All one has to do is watch the games and look at the injuries that occurred to elite star players between the 2 different time periods.

The increase in contact, at speed and with more mass at play, is also evident, just watch some games between the 2 different time periods.

But I know facts are silly right?

Some day you should look up the difference between fact and opinion.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Some day you should look up the difference between fact and opinion.

Actually the increase in injuries to elite players is really obvious to see as are the impact of heavier players colliding more often are higher speeds but like I said above why let the facts get in the way eh?

I know the difference between a fact and opinion but somehow you don't want to address my post, why is that I wonder?

 

[Rhiessan71]

As for the OP Wayne became a different type of player before he declined so its hard to tell when he really declined.

There are 2 clear drops in his goal scoring prowess after 85 and 91 but he was still Gretzky and in the playoffs he would still do his best work in the 93 playoffs which were incredible for him, even for him.

His goal scoring drop after '85 was a combination of of him starting to slowly come off his peak, a change in the rules (4on4) but mostly it was of his own making.
He wanted to get 2 assists a game.
Now while he never flat out said for sure that that is what he was going for, there's enough reading between the lines, winks, innocent looks and bob is your uncle going on in his interviews that it was pretty clear.

As far as '91 goes...yeah, that one was pretty obvious. Glad you finally admit that the Suter crosscheck really did a number on him.

 

[Supreme King]

His goal scoring drop after '85 was a combination of of him starting to slowly come off his peak, a change in the rules (4on4) but mostly it was of his own making.
He wanted to get 2 assists a game.
Now while he never flat out said for sure that that is what he was going for, there's enough reading between the lines, winks, innocent looks and bob is your uncle going on in his interviews that it was pretty clear.

As far as '91 goes...yeah, that one was pretty obvious. Glad you finally admit that the Suter crosscheck really did a number on him.

He flat out said that was his goal during the 1985-86 season.

 

[Hardyvan123]

His goal scoring drop after '85 was a combination of of him starting to slowly come off his peak, a change in the rules (4on4) but mostly it was of his own making.
He wanted to get 2 assists a game.
Now while he never flat out said for sure that that is what he was going for, there's enough reading between the lines, winks, innocent looks and bob is your uncle going on in his interviews that it was pretty clear.

As far as '91 goes...yeah, that one was pretty obvious. Glad you finally admit that the Suter crosscheck really did a number on him.

He wanted to score less goals and get more assists is just crap when one actually looks at the facts he went from a league leading 358 SOG to 350 (which also lead the league).

The decrease in goals is 2 fold,

1) His shooting % went down that year (86), and after that year he would take less SOG and

2) scoring was adjusting from the much higher totals in the early 80's league wide as well.

To try to attribute all of Wayne's decline on the Suter hit is simply avoiding the facts of the matter.

Wayne declined as a player after the 87 season when his scoring no longer dramatically outpaced the GA he would be on the ice for, his uber elite status was over after 87, despite the great fantasy totals.

 

[tazzy19]

He wanted to score less goals and get more assists is just crap when one actually looks at the facts he went from a league leading 358 SOG to 350 (which also lead the league).

The decrease in goals is 2 fold,

1) His shooting % went down that year (86), and after that year he would take less SOG and

2) scoring was adjusting from the much higher totals in the early 80's league wide as well.

To try to attribute all of Wayne's decline on the Suter hit is simply avoiding the facts of the matter.

Wayne declined as a player after the 87 season when his scoring no longer dramatically outpaced the GA he would be on the ice for, his uber elite status was over after 87, despite the great fantasy totals.

You have read Gretzky's 1990 autobiography with Rick Reilly, right? He specifically says he was going for 2 assists per game starting in the 1984-85 season, and missed his goal with "only" a 135 assist season (a new record at the time), but was finally able to attain his goal the following season in 1985-86. He says in the book he didn't go public with it, but felt he could do it. It turns out he was right.

Just amazing that a guy gets tired of scoring 60+, 70+, 80+, and 90+ goals so many times, that he wants to blow everyone's minds by doing something so utterly ridiculous as scoring 160+ assists in a season when no one else (other than him) had ever scored more than 102 (at the time). So crazy and ridiculous that people are still questioning it. Keep in mind that, at the time, no one (other than him) had ever scored 160 points in a season, let alone assists.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Gretzky was more dangerous drawing 2-3 eyes on him and dishing to a teammate than he was as a goal scoring threat, and he knew that.

 

[The Panther]

He wanted to score less goals and get more assists is just crap when one actually looks at the facts he went from a league leading 358 SOG to 350 (which also lead the league).

Around this period, Sather started playing Gretzky & Kurri at the point on some power-plays, which likely contributed to Gretzky's lower shot percentage. But it is fairly obvious that he was more focused on setting-up teammates in 1985-86 than scoring himself. Twice in 1986 he had 7 assists and no goals in a game, immediately after scoring about a goal per game over the previous four seasons.

2) scoring was adjusting from the much higher totals in the early 80's league wide as well.

This is false. Scoring totals for both the Oilers and the NHL in general were higher in 1986 than in 1985.

Wayne declined as a player after the 87 season when his scoring no longer dramatically outpaced the GA he would be on the ice for, his uber elite status was over after 87, despite the great fantasy totals.

Huh? In 1988, his PPG is higher than in 1987, and he was MVP of the playoffs. In 1989, despite going to an 18th place team, he matches Mario for ES points, and then wins the scoring title in 1990 and 1991. 1990-91 is one of his most impressive seasons, in my opinion. It is a slightly lower-scoring League now, and the Kings have the best goal-differential in the NHL, one of the best records overall, and Gretzky has three 30+ point months.

You don't just start declining naturally at age 24 (1985) or 26 (1987) because the League is passing you by.

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

Around this period, Sather started playing Gretzky & Kurri at the point on some power-plays, which likely contributed to Gretzky's lower shot percentage. But it is fairly obvious that he was more focused on setting-up teammates in 1985-86 than scoring himself. Twice in 1986 he had 7 assists and no goals in a game, immediately after scoring about a goal per game over the previous four seasons.

I think Hardyvan is saying that Gretzky was still looking to score himself in addition to trying to increase the number of plays he set up. Getting 350 shots on goal in a season is still trying to score goals.

Huh? In 1988, his PPG is higher than in 1987, and he was MVP of the playoffs. In 1989, despite going to an 18th place team, he matches Mario for ES points, and then wins the scoring title in 1990 and 1991. 1990-91 is one of his most impressive seasons, in my opinion. It is a slightly lower-scoring League now, and the Kings have the best goal-differential in the NHL, one of the best records overall, and Gretzky has three 30+ point months.

Gretzky's peak was more than just offensive numbers, though. He tilted the ice by an insane margin. From 1981-82 through 1986-87 (six seasons), Gretzky managed to be the league leader in:

goals (x5)
assists (x6)
points (x6)
plus-minus (x4)

The two times he didn't lead in plus-minus, he was 2nd (+60 in 82-83) and 3rd (+71 in 85-86). The one time he didn't lead in goals, he was 6th (52 goals in 85-86).

Gretzky was still well beyond mere mortals up until the 1990-91 season, but there was a difference between Gretzky who could lead the league in goals, assists, points, and plus-minus simultaneously four separate times and a Gretzky who could still put up league-leading point totals but became more of a perimeter player who drove puck possession less and less.

You don't just start declining naturally at age 24 (1985) or 26 (1987) because the League is passing you by.

Goal scoring, though, does tend to peak at an earlier age. It's how much one can improve their overall game over the years that mask the goal-scoring decline. Given that Gretzky was basically unmatched at every aspect within a couple of years of entering the league, it was basically inevitable for him to be technically past his prime (but still well ahead of others not named Mario Lemieux) by the ripe old age of 27 or so.

 

[The Panther]

I don't disagree with you, Black Gold; however, the poster you refer to seemed to be arguing that Gretzky passed his peak after 1985, which struck me as absurd.

One could argue that he lost something from 1988, at a stretch, but certainly not 1985. And I think there is enough evidence to suggest that he was actually trying less to score goals himself during 1985-86 (not that he wasn't trying at all -- you don't get a 50-goal season from no effort).

He led the League in goals in 1986-87, scoring something like 45 in the first 46 games, so it's not like he was struggling. And he had 30 in 37 his last year in Edmonton before injury. We should remember that the last two seasons he was in Edmonton, the Oilers no longer scored 400+ goals per year. In 1987, they scored 50-odd fewer goals than the season before (which is a lot less), yet Gretzky led the League in goals and won the scoring title by his largest margin yet.

 

[johan f]

Cool to see Willy Lindstrom in those videos posted here. He has really been silent since he retired. Would be appreciated if he shared memories from his career in Edmonton.

I was at the Forum when Suter hit Gretz. Whole barn stopped breathing while he laid on ice.

 

[Copmuter*]

Just look at what Gretzky was doing in 1984. Check the slow motion segment between 5:45 to 6:12 or so. Also check out all of his 8 points. His first goal...he makes it look so easy. Turning on a dime. Losing Neil Broten like he's a pee wee.... His 4th goal? Absurd. His first assist to Kurri...are you kidding me?! He should have broken Sitler's record this game. He had 8 points by the 2nd period.

It's amazing how much the game has changed...

It looks like some of the players in those highlights wouldn't be able to play in today's NHL

Just think what a prime Bure, Forsberg or Crosby would do out there...

 

[Rhiessan71]

It's amazing how much the game has changed...

It looks like some of the players in those highlights wouldn't be able to play in today's NHL

Just think what a prime Bure, Forsberg or Crosby would do out there...

No more than a 32-35 year old Gretzky with a mangled back as it turns out.
Oops

 

[tazzy19]

It's amazing how much the game has changed...

It looks like some of the players in those highlights wouldn't be able to play in today's NHL

Just think what a prime Bure, Forsberg or Crosby would do out there...

Yes, I agree. I prime Bure & Forsberg would probably score even more points than they did in the 90s, when they were putting around 100 points. In the mid 80s, they'd surely be up in the 120-140 point territory, one would think....

 

[McGuillicuddy]

It's amazing how much the game has changed...

It looks like some of the players in those highlights wouldn't be able to play in today's NHL

Just think what a prime Bure, Forsberg or Crosby would do out there...

From the 1997-1998 season:

Player (age) PTS
Jaromir Jagr (25) 102
Peter Forsberg (24) 91
Pavel Bure (26) 90
Wayne Gretzky (36) 90

 

[ForsbergForever]

There was a really good post on this board detailing how Gretzky's knee injury in 1987-88 was effectively the beginning of the end of his total dominance. I wish I could find the thread.

 

[Copmuter*]

From the 1997-1998 season:

Player (age) PTS
Jaromir Jagr (25) 102
Peter Forsberg (24) 91
Pavel Bure (26) 90
Wayne Gretzky (36) 90

Player (PPG)

Jagr (1.32)
Forsberg (1.26)
Bure (1.10)
Gretzky (1.10)

 

[Rhiessan71]

Player (PPG)

Jagr (1.32)
Forsberg (1.26)
Bure (1.10)
Gretzky (1.10)

Heh and you of course realise that that was a 37 year old Gretzky right?

Not a 20 something and not even a 33-35 year old Gretzky.