When are we going to be honest with ourselves about how bad Kyle Dubas is?

[WarriorofTime]

There's so many former Leaf GMs vying for the Worst GM in franchise history, Burke, JFJ, Nonis

yet since Quinn 20 years ago there has been 10 playoff appearances and 1 divisional title...

What GM had 5 playoff appearance and the single Divisional title?

Dubas is the only GM in the past 20 years of leaf history that even gave you a chance at winning anything

They drafted Rielly, Nylander, Marner, Matthews in a four in five year stretch with high picks. Dubas wasn’t the GM then. That’s realistically why they got good, not because of anything Dubas did.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I understand the comments about Karlsson and Letang being redundant as a criticism for why Dubas would target him, but why are we acting like Karlsson is some albatross contract that won't ever be able to be moved? He'll likely bring back good value as a rental with the Penguins retaining half of his deal. If Kevin Shattenkirk is bringing back a 1st+ as a rental, I figure Karlsson would as well.

Karlsson is obviously not a $10 million player, but I figure almost every contender without a similar type of defenseman to Karlsson would be salivating over the chance to get him as a rental.

You know what does help save a sinking ship sooner? Keeping your draft picks instead of trading them for a player you already have on your roster

I think talking about the Penguins situation that Dubas inherited is complicated. I don't think the team and owners were willing to accept yet that they were toast and needed to rebuild, to the point where I don't know if Dubas would have gotten the job had he come in with the mindset of "I'm blowing up the team and rebuilding immediately". I also think the owners wouldn't have approved of Dubas sitting on his hands and waiting to see what he had in the first off-season.

It's obvious now that the Penguins were toast and they absolutely shouldn't have done the Karlsson trade, but at the time, I think it was less clear. Karlsson was coming off a Norris season, the Penguins were dumping a couple of bad deals in the trade and it basically only cost them a 1st.

It's not the coaches fault that he doesn't have enough depth at forward.

They have enough depth at forward, Sullivan just grossly misuses them and causes them to be completely useless. Teddy Blueger is a great example of this.

 

[MCR74]

The great thing is Dubas will be bad for the rest of his tenure in Pittsburgh. Hey, at least he landed Karlsson.

 

[Frank Drebin]

Dubas made 4m a year in Toronto and signed a 6 year 40 mill contract with Pittsburgh.

The power of connections and selling yourself.

 

[Duffy13]

I can't wait for Marner to be traded to some sad sack team and then see the Leafs fans inundate that team with tons of hate and vitrol...........

oh crap he's going to the Pens isn't he

 

[Ghost of Murph]

The Pens D is simply atrocious so far. They've given up the most goals in the NHL (39), that's 7 more than the Sharks. Watching them last night, it was almost as if they weren't even trying in their own end -- a disorganized mess.

Is this Sullivan's fault or the GM's? Too early to tell most likely, but Dubas certainly doesn't have a pedigree of crafting tough defenses.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

The Pens D is simply atrocious so far. They've given up the most goals in the NHL (39), that's 7 more than the Sharks. Watching them last night, it was almost as if they weren't even trying in their own end -- a disorganized mess.

Is this Sullivan's fault or the GM's? Too early to tell most likely, but Dubas certainly doesn't have a pedigree of crafting tough defenses.

Hopefully its a team trying to get their head coach fired.

People are surprised by their play on D when its been the exact same the past couple years.

They need to outright waive Graves and Jarry. Also need to play youth and see what you have. The only reason to play aging players is if you are winning.

 

[Voight]

Rob Blake for Kyle Dubas. That’s it, that’s the trade

The trade is one for one.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

Hopefully its a team trying to get their head coach fired.

People are surprised by their play on D when its been the exact same the past couple years.

That's what it looked like against EDM. The forwards weren't backchecking like I know they can, and the D had little to no intensity. Blomqvist was the only reason the Oilers did not approach double digits. Sucks as a goalie to play lights-out and still lose 4-0.

 

[Voight]

There's so many former Leaf GMs vying for the Worst GM in franchise history, Burke, JFJ, Nonis

yet since Quinn 20 years ago there has been 10 playoff appearances and 1 divisional title...

What GM had 5 playoff appearance and the single Divisional title?

Dubas is the only GM in the past 20 years of leaf history that even gave you a chance at winning anything

I honestly dont think Burke was all that bad. Yea, the Kessel trade had the worst possible outcome but ownership wouldn't let him rebuild and he was forced to make win now moves despite lacking a #1C or defensemen or goalie.

 

[NyQuil]

I'm not a fan of Dubas but he wasn't hired by Pittsburgh to do a rebuild even if that is the most appropriate step at this point for the franchise.

Crosby and Malkin wanted a few more shots at the playoffs.

I agree that Karlsson is probably redundant but Sullivan to me is a guy that is way past his expiration date, and how much of their competitiveness is his fault at this point has to factor in.

 

[Tie Domi Esquire]

Leafs fans would blame everything and anything before any of the players for their generation of losing.

It truly is amazing.

like Kessel? I thought the meanie pants poopy heads in Toronto tarred and feathered him?

 

[Empoleon8771]

That's what it looked like against EDM. The forwards weren't backchecking like I know they can, and the D had little to no intensity. Blomqvist was the only reason the Oilers did not approach double digits. Sucks as a goalie to play lights-out and still lose 4-0.

The roster isn't perfect, but the system Sullivan is forcing the roster to run with is just not compatible with who they have playing for them. One of the Penguins Athletic articles tweeted this out:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1850129722597937400

It's the same issue they have had for years, Sullivan simply won't adjust the style this team is running with to fit the players on the roster. The team clearly has flaws, but a good coach (or hell, even a normal coach) would be building his system based on the pieces he has available. Sullivan just continues to run with his "perfect system" and then pouts when it doesn't work because the players can't play it. I firmly believe a lot of the additions he has made (especially the Karlsson trade and Grzelcyk and Acciari signings) were focused on trying to give the team the speed/puck moving/forechecking they need to make Sullivan's system work.

The issue is that a team with a core in their late 30s and no young players simply cannot play the system Sullivan wants to run, regardless of what additions Dubas can realistically make. Swapping out 4th liners isn't going to tangibly change the results of the team when the team is as ill-fitted in Sullivan's system as it is. To make this team work with Sullivan's system, you need a time machine to make the core about 5 years younger and to stop Jim Rutherford's reign of terror in his last few years with the Penguins.

 

[Ghost of Murph]

The roster isn't perfect, but the system Sullivan is forcing the roster to run with is just not compatible with who they have playing for them. One of the Penguins Athletic articles tweeted this out:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1850129722597937400

It's the same issue they have had for years, Sullivan simply won't adjust the style this team is running with to fit the players on the roster. The team clearly has flaws, but a good coach (or hell, even a normal coach) would be building his system based on the pieces he has available. Sullivan just continues to run with his "perfect system" and then pouts when it doesn't work because the players can't play it. I firmly believe a lot of the additions he has made (especially the Karlsson trade and Grzelcyk and Acciari signings) were focused on trying to give the team the speed/puck moving/forechecking they need to make Sullivan's system work.

The issue is that a team with a core in their late 30s and no young players simply cannot play the system Sullivan wants to run, regardless of what additions Dubas can realistically make. Swapping out 4th liners isn't going to tangibly change the results of the team when the team is as ill-fitted in Sullivan's system as it is. To make this team work with Sullivan's system, you need a time machine.

Thanks for the detailed insight. It'll be interesting to see if Dubas and co will stick with Sullivan if the team continues to falter. With the core not having much time left it would make sense to have a short leash before the team gets in an insurmountable hole.

 

[Community]

Did anybody really expect Pittsburgh to improve? Sure, they want to be competitive and have a shot at one more cup with Crosby but it was always a Longshot given the age of their core... They desperately need a rebuild which will likely start the year after Crosby retires.

Can't fault the guy for not rebuilding when all the chatter around the hiring was that they wanted somebody to come in and do what they can to support Crosby. If there was no attachment to Crosby, he (along with Malkin and Letang) would've been shopped to the highest bidder and a rebuild started instead of supporting an aging core where Crosby is trying to carry the team on his back way past his prime.

 

[Stephen]

The roster isn't perfect, but the system Sullivan is forcing the roster to run with is just not compatible with who they have playing for them. One of the Penguins Athletic articles tweeted this out:

https://x.com/i/web/status/1850129722597937400

It's the same issue they have had for years, Sullivan simply won't adjust the style this team is running with to fit the players on the roster. The team clearly has flaws, but a good coach (or hell, even a normal coach) would be building his system based on the pieces he has available. Sullivan just continues to run with his "perfect system" and then pouts when it doesn't work because the players can't play it. I firmly believe a lot of the additions he has made (especially the Karlsson trade and Grzelcyk and Acciari signings) were focused on trying to give the team the speed/puck moving/forechecking they need to make Sullivan's system work.

The issue is that a team with a core in their late 30s and no young players simply cannot play the system Sullivan wants to run, regardless of what additions Dubas can realistically make. Swapping out 4th liners isn't going to tangibly change the results of the team when the team is as ill-fitted in Sullivan's system as it is. To make this team work with Sullivan's system, you need a time machine to make the core about 5 years younger and to stop Jim Rutherford's reign of terror in his last few years with the Penguins.

Just my opinion, but the Erik Karlsson addition wasn't made for Pittsburgh's sake or based on any focus of your team needs. Before Dubas left Toronto he had a massive trade deadline and there were rumours he was after EK65 from San Jose, so I think it was just a personal pet project of his that was realized in Pittsburgh. Grier famously didn't want to retain on Karlsson, and landing in a new spot with no supervision allowed Dubas to take this on. Likewise, Acciari was a left over Toronto acquisition on the deadline and I think he got him because that player had been a menace for Boston in previous series.

 

[Stephen]

Thanks for the detailed insight. It'll be interesting to see if Dubas and co will stick with Sullivan if the team continues to falter. With the core not having much time left it would make sense to have a short leash before the team gets in an insurmountable hole.

Short to medium term play, Dubas will lay blame at Sullivan's feet to drive a wedge between coach and ownership group, but long term the Penguins will need a full on rebuild on San Jose levels of reconstruction and by the time things are up and running Kyle Dubas will have been kicked upstairs in the Fenway organization or to the curb.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Just my opinion, but the Erik Karlsson addition wasn't made for Pittsburgh's sake or based on any focus of your team needs. Before Dubas left Toronto he had a massive trade deadline and there were rumours he was after EK65 from San Jose, so I think it was just a personal pet project of his that was realized in Pittsburgh. Grier famously didn't want to retain on Karlsson, and landing in a new spot with no supervision allowed Dubas to take this on. Likewise, Acciari was a left over Toronto acquisition on the deadline and I think he got him because that player had been a menace for Boston in previous series.

That is true but I think Sullivan was also fully in support. There were rumors at the previous deadline that he was pushing Hextall to get Chychrun because the teams puck moving wasn’t sufficient.

This is an aside to this thread, but this all goes back to Hextall’s awful defense decisions in 2022. Their top-4 right now could have been Pettersson-Letang and Matheson-Marino with literally just sticking with what they had. They could have kept the 1st and never even had to trade for Karlsson in the first place. It’s not amazing but it fits the system really well.

 

[I am Canadian]

I still would still want Dubas to be in charge of my team going through a rebuild/re-tool. Compared to pre Dubas/Lamoriello Toronto, the Leafs have been very successful from a business stand point. They've made the playoffs 8 years in a row. Between 2006-2016 they made the playoffs only once. Obviously the round one exits is a major concern, but to me that is more on the players than the construction of the team. Leafs' stars simply fold in tight playoff games.

As much as every team was impacted by the Covid salary cap situation, I struggle to see a team more impacted than the Leafs by this with the timing of those contracts signed.

He definitely deserves lots of criticism for the arrogance by doubling down with his plan once it was clear it wasn't working. Seemed like it was finally clicking in for him regarding changing the plan at the time he was let go.

Regarding Pittsburgh, I have a feeling he doesn't have full control of decisions. To me it looks like he was tasked with trying to compete one last time with the core of older players in Pittsburgh. IMO, there's no better GM to handle the tear down and rebuild of the Penguins that is clearly coming.

Karlsson also expires in 2027, where the Pens will definitely be in a rebuild/tear down at this point. He gambled on another older player hoping to catch fire. I don't really see a negative in that. It's not going to harm them long term.

 

[Breakers]

Still can't believe he allowed Darren Ferris to use Matthews as Marner's comp

Then he did his same old song and dance about playing in switzerland and he fell for it.
embarrassing GM'ing

 

[TooManyHumans]

I am not even interested in defending Dubas. I simply cannot judge him until Sullivan is gone. It is insane that Sullivan is still the head coach of this team. He steadfastly refuses to alter what he expects the team to do no matter what the team is actually capable of doing. It is not 2017 anymore but no one seems to have told Sullivan.

 

[Maple Leaf]

Wow the dubas lovers are going to be mad when they see this thread

 

[Djp]

I can’t say Dumbass is the reason for pittsburghs problems. These were coming fir a while with poor drafting

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

I don't understand why there is so much intrigue in the notion that the Penguins are at the end and not very good…

Like anyone with a high school education can see why they aren't good. Their best players are almost 40 years old.

The only teams that can even compare to them in the past 15 years are Chicago and Kings in terms of winning. That's the list.

Chicago crashed and burned. Its the same thing happening with the Penguins. People act like this was some golden situation that would continue forever.

I have no clue what goes on in some of your heads.

 

[MessierII]

He’s a fan playing the video game basically. That’s how he manages the team.