What's The Argument For Lemieux Over Orr?

[Gorskyontario]

If Orr was anywhere near Gretzky's level, this wouldn't be an issue.

Scotty Bowman, the greatest coach of all time has Orr at #1.

 

[JackSlater]

You tell me, you seem to be the expert .



Scotty Bowman, the greatest coach of all time has Orr at #1.

That's nostalgia or he just doesn't really believe it. Bowman may be the only person to coach Orr and Gretzky (and Lemieux too) in a competitive environment and coach against them as well, but what does he know compared to people who only saw Gretzky (or maybe just Lemieux) or who at least have access to hockey reference?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Scotty Bowman, the greatest coach of all time has Orr at #1.

And he had Gretzky at 5, which tells you everything you need to know about his joke of a list.

 

[Staniowski]

You tell me, you seem to be the expert .



Scotty Bowman, the greatest coach of all time has Orr at #1.

"Mario's the best player who ever lived".

- Scotty Bowman, 2023

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

"Mario's the best player who ever lived".

- Scotty Bowman, 2023

But he was 108 years old when he said it.

 

[Staniowski]

But he was 108 years old when he said it.

That's true!

He definitely always speaks extremely highly of both Orr and Lemieux (and of Howe too), and somewhat less highly of Gretzky.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The Bowman list makes more sense when you know

1) he's not ranking top but best and it's different
2) he values defensive play a lot
3) he didn't put the time in that this forum does

There are lots of oddities. Like for someone who loves defensive play Richard at 3 is odd. Or Morenz in front of Beliveau. The list isn't internally consistent but that doesn't mean it carries zero value.

 

[Mike C]

No. You are confused.

The "Most valuable player" is the player most people would "take." (your word).

OK. I'll take Orr

 

[Gorskyontario]

And he had Gretzky at 5, which tells you everything you need to know about his joke of a list.

Why is his list a joke? He is the greatest coach in the history of the NHL.

 

[Overrated]

Why is his list a joke? He is the greatest coach in the history of the NHL.

Maurice Richard above Wayne Gretzky kind of makes it a joke

 

[VanIslander]

I coached Orr and he's the greatest ever! said Don Cherry. Repeatedly. Endlessly. Until many bought the mantra.

I coached Lemieux and he's the greatest ever! said Scotty Bowman.

 

[seventieslord]

The Bowman list makes more sense when you know

1) he's not ranking top but best and it's different
2) he values defensive play a lot
3) he didn't put the time in that this forum does

There are lots of oddities. Like for someone who loves defensive play Richard at 3 is odd. Or Morenz in front of Beliveau. The list isn't internally consistent but that doesn't mean it carries zero value.

Don't forget Clark over Gilmour!

 

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Scotty Bowman, the greatest coach of all time has Orr at #1.

Who cares . Bowman is an old Canadian man and they all worship Orr like he’s the Messiah himself.

 

[MadLuke]

Like for someone who loves defensive play Richard at 3 is odd. Or Morenz in front of Beliveau.

What is not one of Morenz big strength historically, defensive play ?

 

[DitchMarner]

Don't forget Clark over Gilmour!

What the...?

How?

 

[MadLuke]

Well, I do not see Gilmour anywhere on that list:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/507302-movember-madness-the-best-moustaches-in-toronto-maple-leaf-history

Do you ?

 

[Gorskyontario]

Maurice Richard above Wayne Gretzky kind of makes it a joke

Not according to Scotty Bowman.

Who cares . Bowman is an old Canadian man and they all worship Orr like he’s the Messiah himself.

He won 2 scoring titles on D.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Who cares . Bowman is an old Canadian man and they all worship Orr like he’s the Messiah himself.

That's what Bruins fans were calling him when he was still 16.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

TIL orr over gretzky and/or mario is canadian bias

why am i still reading this thread?

 

[Overrated]

TIL orr over gretzky and/or mario is canadian bias

why am i still reading this thread?

That is because Europeans don't watch the NHL (most games start at like 2AM and before the internet there was no way of watching any of the games) and just look at the point totals and Gretzky has 1000 more points than Lemieux and 2000 more than Orr.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That is because Europeans don't watch the NHL (most games start at like 2AM and before the internet there was no way of watching any of the games) and just look at the point totals and Gretzky has 1000 more points than Lemieux and 2000 more than Orr.

Orr was a defenseman!

Comparing point totals is just so stupid!

 

[Mike C]

Maurice Richard above Wayne Gretzky kind of makes it a joke

Anyone but Orr over Gretzky makes it all a joke

 

[MadLuke]

You can win 8 Stanley cups as a player or be literally Mario Lemieux, by judged by a coach that won the most games in the history of the league and 14 stanley cups and still have your output called a joke...

And we can take I guess by people that never saw Richard pre-injuries play. Gretzky his whole career, won 4 Stanley Cups, I think it is overthinking a bit to not simply put him alone greatest of all time, but best ? That do open the door.

 

[BraveCanadian]

You can win 8 Stanley cups as a player or be literally Mario Lemieux, by judged by a coach that won the most games in the history of the league and 14 stanley cups and still have your output called a joke...

And we can take I guess by people that never saw Richard pre-injuries play. Gretzky his whole career, won 4 Stanley Cups, I think it is overthinking a bit to not simply put him alone greatest of all time, but best ? That do open the door.

All due respect to Bowman as the best coach ever, but his list is terrible.

It is impossible to defend because some of the takes are horrible and as someone pointed out above, internally inconsistent as well.

 

[JackSlater]

All due respect to Bowman as the best coach ever, but his list is terrible.

It is impossible to defend because some of the takes are horrible and as someone pointed out above, internally inconsistent as well.

It's fairly easy to defend, as it is the single most credible list anyone has ever produced in hockey. Doesn't make it perfect or definitive but it has more credibility than anything that anyone criticizing it can produce. Even just his contentious top five, the knowledge of those players possessed by Bowman is something that people would kill for, and his ability to analyze the game is beyond that of anyone criticizing his list as well. His list doesn't fit the hfboards history section norm, but to 99.9% of people that is a problem with this section more than it is with Bowman.