TSN: What's holding up Kopitar's new contract? (MOD WARNING) post #205

[Ron*]

I don't want Kopitar at a $9M+ AAV, because his production doesn't warrant that high of an AAV. There done. Happy Ron? I suppose tulips were once worth crazy money too, but there is a thing called the "bigger fool".

Now, why? I don't think the Kings are cup contenders with Kopitar making that kind of money because Dean can't go out and get the kind of supporting cast that is required to win cups. It also limits his ability to dump a bad contract, because he won't be able to retain cap hit in a trade involving a bad contract.

Additional why? As much as you refuse to see it, Kopitar is in decline. He apparently does nothing special in his off season program to keep him at an elite level. Up to this point he has been able to rely on his genetics to be a great player. Those days are coming to an end, and based on what we saw last season and at the beginning of this season, I think once the decline in his play starts in earnest, it will be quite rapid.

If Kopitar insists on stupid money, and Dean can trade him for a player like Galchenyuk or Jones, then I am for moving him.

That's fine with me. It's pretty clear you are going to be unhappy in the near future, because that's what is going to happen. Your team is going to sign Kopitar to this big contract and you are going to be very unhappy. I guess we are going to hear about it for years to come from you.

I've been pretty silent in reading your posts about Kopitar because I like you as a poster and didn't really want to get into it with you on this topic, but bottom line is you are going to have to live with it and I sure hope the unhappiness doesn't become chronic in your future posts on this player.

Now, having said that, I disagree that he is in decline as a player. Personally, I think he doesn't work hard enough in the offseason to prevent the usual January swoon we see from him. Was he below par last season? Yes he was, but all the Kings players were and I attribute that to the after-effects of deep runs the prior three seasons. Yes he got off to a slow start this season but just this past week I see him heating up, just as Gaborik has been heating up. Funny how those things happen. I would give it a few more weeks before I declare Kopitar's career dead.

Kopitar isn't getting moved for anybody. That's just a ridiculous contention. I expect better from you. Of course DL is going to retain him. We don't have center depth as it is. We need Kopitar as a 1C, and it has to be Kopitar of course: I can't see any player that rises to this team's identity more than Kopitar does. If you have another player in mind, sure wish you would declare that player now.

 

[damacles1156]

There are plenty of players on the Kings that had stellar seasons last year. Lets not lump them in, with others that struggled.

Muzzin had a career year, as did Lewis. Toffoli broke out , Doughty was very good last season ETC.

 

[Frolov 6'3]

If Kopitar has 30 goals and a couple of assists, I am fine with it.

Goals is what it is all about. That means you can create your own chances.

 

[KINGS17]

That's fine with me. It's pretty clear you are going to be unhappy in the near future, because that's what is going to happen. Your team is going to sign Kopitar to this big contract and you are going to be very unhappy. I guess we are going to hear about it for years to come from you.

I've been pretty silent in reading your posts about Kopitar because I like you as a poster and didn't really want to get into it with you on this topic, but bottom line is you are going to have to live with it and I sure hope the unhappiness doesn't become chronic in your future posts on this player.

Now, having said that, I disagree that he is in decline as a player. Personally, I think he doesn't work hard enough in the offseason to prevent the usual January swoon we see from him. Was he below par last season? Yes he was, but all the Kings players were and I attribute that to the after-effects of deep runs the prior three seasons. Yes he got off to a slow start this season but just this past week I see him heating up, just as Gaborik has been heating up. Funny how those things happen. I would give it a few more weeks before I declare Kopitar's career dead.

Kopitar isn't getting moved for anybody. That's just a ridiculous contention. I expect better from you. Of course DL is going to retain him. We don't have center depth as it is. We need Kopitar as a 1C, and it has to be Kopitar of course: I can't see any player that rises to this team's identity more than Kopitar does. If you have another player in mind, sure wish you would declare that player now.

We can get into it on this issue Ron. That doesn't mean I don't think you're a good guy and make valuable contributions here.

Dean will be making a big mistake if he does what you are advocating with Kopitar's contract. The guy is in decline and there are not many players that perform to a high standard beyond 30 years of age.

I fervantly believe that the GMs that realize that long-term, big AAV contracts for players approaching 30 years of age are a big mistake will be ahead of the game. I think the biggest job a GM has going forward is identifying which players on his squad should get the big long-term 2nd contract. Dean missed an opportunity with Toffoli due to a number of factors. Among those are the Brown contract, Richards, etc.

If Kopitar has 30 goals and a couple of assists, I am fine with it.

Goals is what it is all about. That means you can create your own chances.

Kopitar doesn't shoot enough to score 30 goals. His current shooting percentage is over 19%. Unsustainable.

 

[damacles1156]

We can get into it on this issue Ron. That doesn't mean I don't think you're a good guy and make valuable contributions here.

Dean will be making a big mistake if he does what you are advocating with Kopitar's contract. The guy is in decline and there are not many players that perform to a high standard beyond 30 years of age.

I fervantly believe that the GMs that realize that long-term, big AAV contracts for players approaching 30 years of age are a big mistake will be ahead of the game. I think the biggest job a GM has going forward is identifying which players on his squad should get the big long-term 2nd contract. Dean missed an opportunity with Toffoli due to a number of factors. Among those are the Brown contract, Richards, etc.

This is why the next CBA will be a war again. Contract length.

It's cap suicide, to sign 29/30 year old players to high dollar/8 year contracts.

If Gabo continues on this pace, the Kings better hope he retires this off-season.

 

[KINGS17]

This is why the next CBA will be a war again. Contract length.

It's cap suicide, to sign 29/30 year old players to high dollar/8 year contracts.

I think the owners are going to go after the guaranteed contracts. The owners want to put the best product that is possible on the ice. That won't happen paying has beens like Lecavalier to not play.

 

[King'sPawn]

If Kopitar has 30 goals and a couple of assists, I am fine with it.

Goals is what it is all about. That means you can create your own chances.

So you would be okay with a player who scores 30 goals and 10 assists but not 10 goals and 30 assists getting paid big? Am I understanding correctly?

 

[Trolfoli]

Hold out for 10+ Kopi!!!! You're worth it!!!!

Seriously, this is a bunch of freaking out about 2M, probably less. Cut excess fat, Greene/Lewis/Brown.

 

[Face Wash]

I fervantly believe that the GMs that realize that long-term, big AAV contracts for players approaching 30 years of age are a big mistake will be ahead of the game. I think the biggest job a GM has going forward is identifying which players on his squad should get the big long-term 2nd contract. Dean missed an opportunity with Toffoli due to a number of factors. Among those are the Brown contract, Richards, etc.

It's funny how people are loathe to "overpay" Kopitar while Dustin Brown does his Jesse James act night in and night out. Kopi is a top-10 (200 feet of the ice) center in this league. Brown isn't even among the Top-100 wingers production wise.

We as fans always live in the now...GMs never live in the now, they live in the Now and 5 years from now (It's why DL's Tulane buddy up the street isn't going to give his Cy Young runner up pitcher a 5-year deal so he can pay him $30M when he's 37). I FERVANTLY believe Kopi will be disappointed with his contract in 5 years (Jeff Carter should be). While Brown will have to defend his for the rest of his under-performing career.

Kopitar doesn't shoot enough to score 30 goals. His current shooting percentage is over 19%. Unsustainable.

I'll take the 26 he's on pace for, even less than that if he's going to shutdown guys like Stamkos. Kings aren't even sniffing the playoffs w/o Kopitar much less be in a Cup Window.

Amazing the short memories some people have. Kopi was a shutdown/point-a-game player in their last Cup run averaging almost 20 minutes TOI playing in every possible situation vs. opp #1 center. Just stop!

 

[Frolov 6'3]

So you would be okay with a player who scores 30 goals and 10 assists but not 10 goals and 30 assists getting paid big? Am I understanding correctly?

yes indeed, KP.

 

[Thrice]

This is why the next CBA will be a war again. Contract length.

It's cap suicide, to sign 29/30 year old players to high dollar/8 year contracts.

If Gabo continues on this pace, the Kings better hope he retires this off-season.

Shorter contracts means higher AAV, which means less cap space for depth players. It doesn't "fix" anything.

 

[Thrice]

I think the owners are going to go after the guaranteed contracts. The owners want to put the best product that is possible on the ice. That won't happen paying has beens like Lecavalier to not play.

If you're talking about the NFL model then high priced players will still get guaranteed money. Cutting those players comes with significant cap penalties. It doesn't save the owners any money and many people will tell you the NFL product is as bad as it's ever been in the modern era.

 

[KINGS17]

It's funny how people are loathe to "overpay" Kopitar while Dustin Brown does his Jesse James act night in and night out. Kopi is a top-10 (200 feet of the ice) center in this league. Brown isn't even among the Top-100 wingers production wise.

We as fans always live in the now...GMs never live in the now, they live in the Now and 5 years from now (It's why DL's Tulane buddy up the street isn't going to give his Cy Young runner up pitcher a 5-year deal so he can pay him $30M when he's 37). I FERVANTLY believe Kopi will be disappointed with his contract in 5 years (Jeff Carter should be). While Brown will have to defend his for the rest of his under-performing career.



I'll take the 26 he's on pace for, even less than that if he's going to shutdown guys like Stamkos. Kings aren't even sniffing the playoffs w/o Kopitar much less be in a Cup Window.

Amazing the short memories some people have. Kopi was a shutdown/point-a-game player in their last Cup run averaging almost 20 minutes TOI playing in every possible situation vs. opp #1 center. Just stop!

Why do you assume this? I am not fine with Brown's contract, and overpaying Kopitar will make it more difficult to trade Brown, not easier. Actually, I don't understand why whenever Kopitar's contract is discussed that the first thing some of you do is point out how much Brown's contract sucks as if adding another bad contract to the mix should therefore be acceptable.

Kopitar is an outstanding defensive center with some offensive punch. He may very well still be a top 10 200-foot center, but too bad for him 60 feet of that 200 feet includes the offensive zone, and he is average there.

He may be on pace for 26 goals, but he won't get there if he doesn't shoot more. His current shooting percentage is unsustainable as I have already pointed out. If this was the fall of 2013, I would be all for giving Kopitar the 8 years, but this is 2015 and his play WILL continue to decline.

If Dean pays Kopitar anything close to $80M over 8 years, I guarantee you in 5 years it will be like Kopitar is stealing from the Kings. BTW, the cap is NOT going up!!! It will be stagnant for quite some time unless oil prices rise dramatically. How many times does this aspect of the situation need to be explained?

 

[damacles1156]

Shorter contracts means higher AAV, which means less cap space for depth players. It doesn't "fix" anything.

Your High dollar, Max Length contracts should go to people like Doughty/Kopitar got on their second contracts.

Not 29/30 year old players.

There is nothing wrong with Six year max contact legnths, that's what the owners/GM wanted in the last CBA, they compromised on Eight with the NHLPA.

 

[Ron*]

Your High dollar, Max Length contracts should go to people like Doughty/Kopitar got on their second contracts.

Not 29/30 year old players.

There is nothing wrong with Six year max contact legnths, that's what the owners/GM wanted in the last CBA, they compromised on Eight with the NHLPA.

Gaborik got a 7-year deal with the Kings at 32 years of age.

 

[damacles1156]

Gaborik got a 7-year deal with the Kings at 32 years of age.

Which is a stupid contract. It was dumb when they signed him to it, it's dumb now. If Gabo keeps up this type of play, which I think he will, he is 33 years old. The Kings better hope he retires, very soon.

Like this coming off-season.

 

[KINGS17]

Shorter contracts means higher AAV, which means less cap space for depth players. It doesn't "fix" anything.

Sure it does. Bad GMs will screw up and give depth players too much money. Good GMs will recognize that the big money is best spent on very special older players that stay in top shape, and on young up and coming stars.

Shorter contracts would mean players like Lecavalier would be out of the league and retired at the appropriate time.

Shorter contracts would increase parity, which is one of the main points of the salary cap.

Do people that always seem to support the NHLPA in the CBA negotiations understand that the things the owners want often improves the on-ice product? As long as the players are getting their 50/50 revenue split, they aren't getting screwed. It may be that your favorite player appears to get screwed at some point (never mind the millions of dollars he has already made) later in his career, but overall the players are doing quite well. I don't know too many businesses where the employees are guaranteed 50% of the revenue. That is not profit mind you, that's revenue.

 

[Ron*]

Which is a stupid contract. It was dumb when they signed him to it, it's dumb now.

Whatever you wish to believe about it doesn't change the fact that this is the Kings' methodology placed into practice when signing their own players.

So I guess you are just going to have to live with these long-term "stupid, dumb" contracts.

 

[damacles1156]

Whatever you wish to believe about it doesn't change the fact that this is the Kings' methodology placed into practice when signing their own players.

So I guess you are just going to have to live with these long-term "stupid, dumb" contracts.

Which is fine, it's not my money, it's just frustrating watching Lombardi continue to sign these type of contracts. They end up hamstringing the Kings. To Lombardi's credit, he has signed some great deals.

Muzzin's contract is a steal.

 

[KINGS17]

Whatever you wish to believe about it doesn't change the fact that this is the Kings' methodology placed into practice when signing their own players.

So I guess you are just going to have to live with these long-term "stupid, dumb" contracts.

Will you still buy your season tickets when the stupid contracts effect the quality of the on-ice product?

If the answer is no, then I guess you aren't going to just live with it. A bad decision or strategy is a bad idea. These decisions should not be made with emotion by Dean. If he hasn't learned that from the Richards situation, then he is not as sharp as I think.

 

[KINGS17]

Which is fine, it's not my money, it's just frustrating watching Lombardi continue to sign these type of contracts. They end up hamstringing the Kings. To Lombardi's credit, he has signed some great deals.

Muzzin's contract is a steal.

I would add Clifford, Nolan, and King to that list.

Let's see if Dean can work some magic with Lewis on his next deal.

 

[damacles1156]

At some point regardless of Cap, the Kings will have to rebuild. The core is already getting on the wrong side of 30.

So I think the window is open for this season and Next, that's it.

Who knows what a 32 year old Quick is going to play like(the trends for an athletic goalie are not good), and there are zero boni-fide starting Goalie prospects in the system. Goalie prospects right now are a huge weakness in the system, that needs to be addressed this next draft.

 

[Ron*]

Will you still buy your season tickets when the stupid contracts effect the quality of the on-ice product?

If the answer is no, then I guess you aren't going to just live with it. A bad decision or strategy is a bad idea. These decisions should not be made with emotion by Dean. If he hasn't learned that from the Richards situation, then he is not as sharp as I think.

Sure, because if the team goes back to the suckage of most of its history, season tickets will be a steal by then. And I can perhaps get into the PR section, center. Even better seats than I have now.

 

[Face Wash]

Why do you assume this? I am not fine with Brown's contract, and overpaying Kopitar will make it more difficult to trade Brown, not easier. Actually, I don't understand why whenever Kopitar's contract is discussed that the first thing some of you do is point out how much Brown's contract sucks as if adding another bad contract to the mix should therefore be acceptable.

Kopitar is an outstanding defensive center with some offensive punch. He may very well still be a top 10 200-foot center, but too bad for him 60 feet of that 200 feet includes the offensive zone, and he is average there.

He may be on pace for 26 goals, but he won't get there if he doesn't shoot more. His current shooting percentage is unsustainable as I have already pointed out. If this was the fall of 2013, I would be all for giving Kopitar the 8 years, but this is 2015 and his play WILL continue to decline.

If Dean pays Kopitar anything close to $80M over 8 years, I guarantee you in 5 years it will be like Kopitar is stealing from the Kings. BTW, the cap is NOT going up!!! It will be stagnant for quite some time unless oil prices rise dramatically. How many times does this aspect of the situation need to be explained?

Bottom Line: DOMINANT playoff player, No #1 center playing 20 minutes a night vs. other team's top line in EVERY situation. Kings not even a playoff team w/o him. He's going to get paid and might even get a NMC.

Better start learning to live with it.

And in reference to Cap prediction....shine your Crystal Ball, it's a bit foggy.

 

[damacles1156]

I love Dustin Brown, and hate his contract. Since Brown signed that deal.

229GP 46G 44A 90P -8, Terrible.

I hope Kopitar can be productive in his 30's.