What would happen if there is no OHL season? (Part 2)

[OMG67]

Maybe it's just me, but if a 21 year old can't make it in a pro league or CIS, maybe they should be thinking about hanging up the skates?

I’m not sure it is about making the leagues etc. I think it is about exposure to the point that opportunities are fully maximized.

For example, any OHL player that wants to play CIS should get an opportunity. I don’t know of any regular OHL players not capable of playing at that level to be honest. I guess from that perspective, it would be about which program they want to go to?

From a professional perspective, it may be the difference between getting an AHL deal or an ECHL deal and we all know that is a big compensation gap. That OA year can have a lot to do with that type of offer. IMO, any player offered an ECHL contract that has scholastic ability should say, “Yeah, no thanks.” But, they do have the opportunity to give it a shot without killing their scholarship.

All that said, I do agree. I really cannot see the 21 year old significantly benefitting by returning. Of course, there will be a handful that would benefit but not enough to simply open the floodgates and allow 3 of them! That would be absurd IMO. If the CHL were to allow two 21 year olds play per team, that would pull over 100 players away from graduating to the other programs available to them. That is a significant number of players not filtering into other programs and refuelling them. That may cause a significant negative ripple effect.

 

[AttackSound]

Maybe it's just me, but if a 21 year old can't make it in a pro league or CIS, maybe they should be thinking about hanging up the skates?

The easiest way to sort this out is if anyone who would've aged out by the end of the season for 2020-21 you offer then there Post-Secondary education packages which is standard for all players, if they bring back 20yo who would be 21 would throw the natural cycle out of balance.

The only way the league could do that is by adjusting the age breakdown, as OMG67 mentioned earlier in the thread with his breakdown of (2-2-5-5-5-3) would work in theory but I believe by the time players are 21, I think they would realize that their chances of playing pro are pretty slim in the NHL ranks by that time and are thinking Post-Secondary education packages.

Players will do what players feel is the right thing for them, I don't think the league will change the rules just because of circumstances out of everyone's control are in play.

 

[BadgerBruce]

I


If the League truly wants to do what is best for the players, an outside the box solution is required. As some have mentioned with other comments, the LEague will probably do what is best for the League and I believe we both feel strongly that is not a good approach.

I understand the issues with Scholarship BUT, any OHL level player that wants to go CIS will have an opportunity so staying that extra year to set that up is meaningless. The only reason to stay that extra year is to get a Professional opportunity. I doubt those players primary goal is to protect their scholarship value.

I also feel this may be an opportunity for the OHL to reset the way they draft and acquire players. You bring up some very significant issues with respect to player development. In Ottawa, we’ve seen many issues where the 5th 16 year old ends up being more impactful than the other four that developed in the OHL as 16 year olds. That said, it would need to be an initiative that required a competitive Midget program because right now, the 16 year olds that are quality players not playing OHL usually end up in Tier II Junior A. Jack Quinn is a great example playing Tier II as a 16 year old and two years later goes top 10 in the NHL draft. Pushing kids to Midget may not be as valuable if the Midget leagues are highly competitive.

So, although the League and players could benefit by a delay in starting their OHL career, there are some hurdles that need to be crossed to address the issues with development outside the OHL.

100% agree -- there needs to be a re-think/re-set by the league, an out-of-the-box approach that recognizes how the entire developmental system is a pyramid built with delicately balanced cards. Pull out the wrong card and the entire structure collapses.

There is precedent. After the NHL sponsorship system ended 50 years ago, teams could no longer fill their rosters with all of the C-card signed teenagers who were the property of the NHL clubs and they needed to find a new way forward. The early Midget (17 year old) priority selection drafts up until 1976 were instituted to solve the player acquisition problem, and they were "sort of" like today's, though teams were still allowed to select a limited number of "residency protected" (meaning they lived in the club's community) players and standard player agreements were year-to-year rather than full junior eligibility length. Believe it or not, even something we take for granted now -- trades -- had to be re-thought once the junior player pool no longer belonged to NHL clubs (via C-cards) prior to hitting junior hockey ice. Throw in the OHA and the CAHA as governing bodies and direct recipients of annual NHL junior hockey development money payments, and it's easy to see how much the Ontario Hockey League had to change, which it did.

I'd argue that the 5-10 post-pandemic seasons for the OHL are going to be the second most significant years in the league's history, just behind the end of the NHL sponsorship system and the institution of a midget priority selection draft. Just as circumstances beyond the league's control forced it to find solutions (or die) about 50 years ago, these new circumstances arrive with a similar urgency to adapt or risk either death or irrelevancy.

If I'm blue skying things, I'd want to see a league vision that is longer term in nature. Sure, most people on this Board are thinking about the franchise they root for and what the immediate competitive future holds, but my belief is that the league needs to focus on where it wants to be in 2026 and 2030 much more than in 2021. I'm a "boots on the ground" -- or maybe "skates on the ice" is more accurate -- old guy in youth hockey in Ontario, and I started working with youngsters in the very early 1980s. What's changed more than anything else? The numbers. No matter what Hockey Canada claims in their annual reports, I am telling everyone willing to listen that the once fat goose that laid golden eggs for nearly 100 years of competitive Canadian junior hockey is now visibly emaciated. It needs help to get back to good health. The NHL sends money each year to the CHL so major junior hockey is able to continue providing well-trained players for the professional game, but the CHL, which every year "drafts" nearly 1000 minor hockey players, has largely divorced itself from the very development system upon which it depends.

This needs to change. I'm not talking about cash payments -- minor hockey is "pay to play," and the parents are usually well-heeled enough to pay their kids' bills. No, I'm talking about an OHL that sees itself as a leader in an integrated system of youth amateur hockey and works closely with youth/minor hockey in ways that go beyond "here's some free tickets for a game, do your 6 year olds want to play a mini game during the intermission?" That's not an investment -- that's just handing out Halloween candy.

I'll give some serious thought to the issue and post something later.

 

[Otto]

If the CHL were to allow two 21 year olds play per team, that would pull over 100 players away from graduating to the other programs available to them. That is a significant number of players not filtering into other programs and refuelling them. That may cause a significant negative ripple effect.

Key point here that I'm not sure has been discussed... CHL ... would any change in age need to be adopted across the country? I would say yes or it's not a level playing field.

Personally I think the CHL as a whole would be better off to do what they can to ensure all 20 7 21 year olds who are interested get tryouts somewhere. If that means holding a combine over the course of a few weekends in August/September then do it. If that means those combines need to be held in Erie/Saginaw/Flint.. then do it. Let's focus on advancing these players careers, not holding their hands or holding them back.

 

[AttackSound]

Key point here that I'm not sure has been discussed... CHL ... would any change in age need to be adopted across the country? I would say yes or it's not a level playing field.

Personally I think the CHL as a whole would be better off to do what they can to ensure all 20 7 21 year olds who are interested get tryouts somewhere. If that means holding a combine over the course of a few weekends in August/September then do it. If that means those combines need to be held in Erie/Saginaw/Flint.. then do it. Let's focus on advancing these players careers, not holding their hands or holding them back.

The OHL is already talking about offering 20yo to return in there 21yo year nothing official has been announced yet but discussions are on going according to the OS Sun Times article yesterday.

 

[Otto]

The OHL is already talking about offering 20yo to return in there 21yo year nothing official has been announced yet but discussions are on going according to the OS Sun Times article yesterday.

Yes... OHL... But what is the CHL's stance?

 

[windsor7]

I understand the pessimism, but talking about the 2000s coming back isn't "kicking the can down the road." It's a new topic that's going to be discussed over the summer. Now, if they changed the camps to Oct or Nov, like they did this past season, then all bets are off on that.



It has nothing to do with "glory days."

If they said "sorry, 2000s, but you're done", I'd accept that. However, if they allowed two or three 2000s, no issues here. It wouldn't be forced or anything.

They should accept it.
Take your educational package n run.
Let the younger kids to to develop instead of taking time away from them.

 

[windsor7]

Maybe it's just me, but if a 21 year old can't make it in a pro league or CIS, maybe they should be thinking about hanging up the skates?

Absolutely agree.

 

[OMG67]

Key point here that I'm not sure has been discussed... CHL ... would any change in age need to be adopted across the country? I would say yes or it's not a level playing field.

Personally I think the CHL as a whole would be better off to do what they can to ensure all 20 7 21 year olds who are interested get tryouts somewhere. If that means holding a combine over the course of a few weekends in August/September then do it. If that means those combines need to be held in Erie/Saginaw/Flint.. then do it. Let's focus on advancing these players careers, not holding their hands or holding them back.

Makes sense to me. And of course the OHL cannot operate in a bubble wth respect to increasing the age, otherwise how can you contest a Memorial Cup?

The key, as you have clearly pointed out, is to find a way to assist the 21 year olds. And, for that matter, the 20 year olds. I think the 20 year olds have been widely overlooked as well. There is a restriction on how many can play as OA’s and many of this seasons’ 19 year olds will be OA’s next year. They will be competing for OA opportunities amongst each other as well.

They will need an outside the box solution to assist players, that is for certain. Whether the solution is to allow a certain number of 21 year olds to play is going to be a hot button topic for discussion. Heck, in just one day on this forum, a bunch of loose strings have been pulled. I can just imagine the intricacies they will be discussing with respect to potential impacts of possible solutions.

 

[OMG67]

100% agree -- there needs to be a re-think/re-set by the league, an out-of-the-box approach that recognizes how the entire developmental system is a pyramid built with delicately balanced cards. Pull out the wrong card and the entire structure collapses.

There is precedent. After the NHL sponsorship system ended 50 years ago, teams could no longer fill their rosters with all of the C-card signed teenagers who were the property of the NHL clubs and they needed to find a new way forward. The early Midget (17 year old) priority selection drafts up until 1976 were instituted to solve the player acquisition problem, and they were "sort of" like today's, though teams were still allowed to select a limited number of "residency protected" (meaning they lived in the club's community) players and standard player agreements were year-to-year rather than full junior eligibility length. Believe it or not, even something we take for granted now -- trades -- had to be re-thought once the junior player pool no longer belonged to NHL clubs (via C-cards) prior to hitting junior hockey ice. Throw in the OHA and the CAHA as governing bodies and direct recipients of annual NHL junior hockey development money payments, and it's easy to see how much the Ontario Hockey League had to change, which it did.

I'd argue that the 5-10 post-pandemic seasons for the OHL are going to be the second most significant years in the league's history, just behind the end of the NHL sponsorship system and the institution of a midget priority selection draft. Just as circumstances beyond the league's control forced it to find solutions (or die) about 50 years ago, these new circumstances arrive with a similar urgency to adapt or risk either death or irrelevancy.

If I'm blue skying things, I'd want to see a league vision that is longer term in nature. Sure, most people on this Board are thinking about the franchise they root for and what the immediate competitive future holds, but my belief is that the league needs to focus on where it wants to be in 2026 and 2030 much more than in 2021. I'm a "boots on the ground" -- or maybe "skates on the ice" is more accurate -- old guy in youth hockey in Ontario, and I started working with youngsters in the very early 1980s. What's changed more than anything else? The numbers. No matter what Hockey Canada claims in their annual reports, I am telling everyone willing to listen that the once fat goose that laid golden eggs for nearly 100 years of competitive Canadian junior hockey is now visibly emaciated. It needs help to get back to good health. The NHL sends money each year to the CHL so major junior hockey is able to continue providing well-trained players for the professional game, but the CHL, which every year "drafts" nearly 1000 minor hockey players, has largely divorced itself from the very development system upon which it depends.

This needs to change. I'm not talking about cash payments -- minor hockey is "pay to play," and the parents are usually well-heeled enough to pay their kids' bills. No, I'm talking about an OHL that sees itself as a leader in an integrated system of youth amateur hockey and works closely with youth/minor hockey in ways that go beyond "here's some free tickets for a game, do your 6 year olds want to play a mini game during the intermission?" That's not an investment -- that's just handing out Halloween candy.

I'll give some serious thought to the issue and post something later.

That would be an approach with a requirement to go hand in hand with Hockey Canada. AND, for that matter, a form of marriage with Hockey USA as well.

We are living in an emerging Globalist approach world and Hockey USA is emerging as a dominant force. Europe is also really starting to be a force, albeit they are behind the USA generally speaking.

The World body needs to find a way to develop players in tandem with each other and recognize it is in the sports best interest to grow together and find a way to recognize the top level leagues and feed them from a player development perspective.

The major hurdle in all of this is the NCAA eligibility issues. Major Junior being considered professional drives a wedge into any sort of merger process whereby the CHL can have a direct agreement with the USHL because the USHL is not considered professional.

Based on your rationale, and factoring in the emergence of Hockey USA being a major force, some sort of merger or at least an operating cooperation between the CHL and USHL is needed. We can still have nationalistic competitions but cooperating for the development of hockey players and feeding the Professional Leagues should be a primary goal above protecting individual leagues.

We’ve had many good discussions regarding the watered down OHL product. Much of that is pure speculation and conjecture BUT you have bit on some topics related to how the CHL/OHL would decline if they don’t really start looking at ways of growing while the Canadian enrolment in hockey continues to decrease. It is only a matter of time before Hockey USA surpasses Hockey Canada from a development perspective if changes are not made. I am not sure how that can benefit the CHL, especially if the USHL continues to grow in popularity.

 

[O fan]

Regarding the previous post.
The success of Hockey USA is a direct result of the USA Hockey National Team Development Program.

Not the USHL

For many good reasons the CHL and owners of Canadian Juniors teams have no interest in allowing elite athletes to be removed from a local program for their development.

The US NTDP feeds the NHL and will allow the US to likely win U18 starting next week.

They have just had a year of development while the OHL....

 

[OMG67]

Regarding the previous post.
The success of Hockey USA is a direct result of the USA Hockey National Team Development Program.

Not the USHL

For many good reasons the CHL and owners of Canadian Juniors teams have no interest in allowing elite athletes to be removed from a local program for their development.

The US NTDP feeds the NHL and will allow the US to likely win U18 starting next week.

They have just had a year of development while the OHL....

The NDP is a strong entity BUT as USA Hockey grows, either the USHL grows with it or the players leave the USA and come to the CHL.

There needs to be a growth and development program and I believe the sport would be better off finding a way to cooperatively work together as opposed to as competitors.

 

[rangersblues]

Does the USHL recruit Canadian players and if they do how heavily? It seems to me if they started to recruit our top midgets and could offer a similar experience, while keeping the players' US college eligibility, the CHL could be in trouble.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Regarding the previous post.
The success of Hockey USA is a direct result of the USA Hockey National Team Development Program.

Not the USHL

For many good reasons the CHL and owners of Canadian Juniors teams have no interest in allowing elite athletes to be removed from a local program for their development.

The US NTDP feeds the NHL and will allow the US to likely win U18 starting next week.

They have just had a year of development while the OHL....

I would agree -- if we define "success" as eventually reaching the NHL.

The USHL does not have that as a goal. The top of the pyramid in USA Hockey is NCAA, and the USHL (and, to a lesser degree, the NAHL) feed the NCAA, not professional hockey. That's the actual goal and, for the most part, it works.

Hockey Canada -- and this is true -- has the CJHL (Canadian Junior Hockey League, which most know as 'Tier II Jr. A') at the top of the developmental pyramid. One could make the argument that the CJHL's primary goal is not unlike the USHL's: to send players to NCAA.

All three CHL leagues have, as their primary goal (from which they financially benefit) sending players to the NHL. I'm not saying this is bad or wrong, but it's certainly different from the USHL's primary goal.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Does the USHL recruit Canadian players and if they do how heavily? It seems to me if they started to recruit our top midgets and could offer a similar experience, while keeping the players' US college eligibility, the CHL could be in trouble.

There are currently 61 Canadians in the USHL. Of these 61, 25 are Ontario-born.
USHL Players Born in Ontario ‑ 2020-2021 Stats Leaders

In my view, the CHL does not need to worry too much about the USHL because Canadians are considered imports in that league. But if the USHL import rules ever change (unlikely) so Canadians are treated the same way Americans are in the CHL . . . .

 

[rangersblues]

There are currently 61 Canadians in the USHL. Of these 61, 25 are Ontario-born.
USHL Players Born in Ontario ‑ 2020-2021 Stats Leaders

In my view, the CHL does not need to worry too much about the USHL because Canadians are considered imports in that league. But if the USHL import rules ever change (unlikely) so Canadians are treated the same way Americans are in the CHL . . . .

Thanks for the clarification. I thought there had to be something along those lines. I wasn't sure how it worked.

One more question. I assume the USHL isn't able to offer education packages, particularly to Canadians. Just hook them up with scholarship opportunities.

 

[BadgerBruce]

Thanks for the clarification. I thought there had to be something along those lines. I wasn't sure how it worked.

One more question. I assume the USHL isn't able to offer education packages, particularly to Canadians. Just hook them up with scholarship opportunities.

You’re correct — no post USHL scholarships for players. The league cannot offer these because to do so would constitute a “player benefit” and compromise the players’ amateur status and NCAA eligibility.

 

[swoopster]

A top flight NCAA program doesn't have to do anything to attract a Canadian prospect. It only provides options. The US Junior Programs offer nothing except the potential for NCAA scholarship. It is no different than the CHL with American players. They too have options, they loose that ability for NCAA scholarship in the hope that the CHL becomes a faster track to exposure and the NHL reward. Add to that the European factor. All have consequences. The route to the NHL has many paths and pitfalls.

 

[bigsportsfan]

While I guess we can all speculate on who is to blame, one thing that is certain is all the other leagues found a way to play while the OHL didn't. The WHL, QMJHL, USHL, and NCAA all played games. In Ontario both the AHL Toronto Marlies and Belleville Senators also got approval to play.

However, what I find even more disturbing is that many leagues below the OHL, such as Jr. B and Tier 2 Jr. A, held regularly practices and scrimmages against other teams. On BP Sports Niagara, Tim Toffolo, owner of the GOJHL Jr. B Pelham Panthers said, “We were on the ice 138 times this year. Our kids got their time. They didn’t miss a beat as far as ice time goes. We played 20 exhibition games, five three-on-three tournaments, four four-on-four tournaments. We didn’t miss a beat other than we didn’t get to play in league games."

Many other Ontario Jr. B and Jr. A teams had similar experiences. Those kids got to develop at least somewhat. But in the OHL, the kids all stayed home and completely wasted a year of development. That is not the government's fault. That's on the OHL.

In the Owen Sound Sun Times, there was an interesting quote from Owen Sound Attack defenceman Andrew Perrott:

Perrott though, who had the opportunity to play NCAA hockey at Miami University (Ohio) but chose to play major junior in Canada, said if he was 15 again today that choice may be a little harder.
“It definitely would have been a longer sit down to really decide what I would have done if this would have happened at that point in time."

 

[MatthewsMoustache]

While I guess we can all speculate on who is to blame, one thing that is certain is all the other leagues found a way to play while the OHL didn't. The WHL, QMJHL, USHL, and NCAA all played games. In Ontario both the AHL Toronto Marlies and Belleville Senators also got approval to play.

However, what I find even more disturbing is that many leagues below the OHL, such as Jr. B and Tier 2 Jr. A, held regularly practices and scrimmages against other teams. On BP Sports Niagara, Tim Toffolo, owner of the GOJHL Jr. B Pelham Panthers said, “We were on the ice 138 times this year. Our kids got their time. They didn’t miss a beat as far as ice time goes. We played 20 exhibition games, five three-on-three tournaments, four four-on-four tournaments. We didn’t miss a beat other than we didn’t get to play in league games."

Many other Ontario Jr. B and Jr. A teams had similar experiences. Those kids got to develop at least somewhat. But in the OHL, the kids all stayed home and completely wasted a year of development. That is not the government's fault. That's on the OHL.

In the Owen Sound Sun Times, there was an interesting quote from Owen Sound Attack defenceman Andrew Perrott:

Perrott though, who had the opportunity to play NCAA hockey at Miami University (Ohio) but chose to play major junior in Canada, said if he was 15 again today that choice may be a little harder.
“It definitely would have been a longer sit down to really decide what I would have done if this would have happened at that point in time."

The majority of players on a Jr. B team are from the area and the rest are usually in that city for school, so the entirety of most teams players were going to be around no matter what.

In the OHL, you might have a couple players from the area, but most of the team isn’t, they live with billets and they are there mainly for hockey, not school, so when there isn’t hockey games being played, there’s no reason for them to be there.

Do not get me wrong, I’m sure the players would have loved to spend the year in their OHL city practicing with their team even if they only got a few exhibition games in. All I’m saying is that I understand the rationale behind not having players report and practice.

 

[Otto]

While I guess we can all speculate on who is to blame, one thing that is certain is all the other leagues found a way to play while the OHL didn't. The WHL, QMJHL, USHL, and NCAA all played games. In Ontario both the AHL Toronto Marlies and Belleville Senators also got approval to play.

However, what I find even more disturbing is that many leagues below the OHL, such as Jr. B and Tier 2 Jr. A, held regularly practices and scrimmages against other teams. On BP Sports Niagara, Tim Toffolo, owner of the GOJHL Jr. B Pelham Panthers said, “We were on the ice 138 times this year. Our kids got their time. They didn’t miss a beat as far as ice time goes. We played 20 exhibition games, five three-on-three tournaments, four four-on-four tournaments. We didn’t miss a beat other than we didn’t get to play in league games."

Many other Ontario Jr. B and Jr. A teams had similar experiences. Those kids got to develop at least somewhat. But in the OHL, the kids all stayed home and completely wasted a year of development. That is not the government's fault. That's on the OHL.

In the Owen Sound Sun Times, there was an interesting quote from Owen Sound Attack defenceman Andrew Perrott:

Perrott though, who had the opportunity to play NCAA hockey at Miami University (Ohio) but chose to play major junior in Canada, said if he was 15 again today that choice may be a little harder.
“It definitely would have been a longer sit down to really decide what I would have done if this would have happened at that point in time."

They played those games under MacLeod's "modified rules" .. the ones that people were screaming about here. Is that what people wanted now?

 

[BadgerBruce]

The Jr B and Tier II junior leagues in Ontario are pay to play and the players are not signed to Standard Player Agreements.

In other words, the players essentially cover their teams’ costs and the owners have no financial obligations to the players.

The OHL is an entirely different animal.

 

[rangersblues]

One person to blame. The one who consistently ignored science

Today he finally admitted it.

 

[Otto]

Lost OHL season may have cost London Knights a Memorial Cup title | London Free Press

Ignore the rah-rah headline.. article speaks about governors meetings and the government involvement

 

[bigsportsfan]

They played those games under MacLeod's "modified rules" .. the ones that people were screaming about here. Is that what people wanted now?

I am not saying they should have held regular season games under the modified rules. I am saying they should have practiced and scrimmaged like all the other leagues did who couldn't play a regular season.