What would a 40 team NHL look like

[CHRDANHUTCH]

Average AHL arena capacity is 9,816. This alone would cause relegation/promotion to be a non-starter.

The goalie argument about talent dilution is valid and NHL teams are due for a rethink in how they approach this position. Skaters, coaches, management etc., there are plenty and this is not a real concern.

I suspect people are not considering with each introduction into new markets, young fans are born, youth programs are created and local development occurs. Young athletes who would not have been exposed to hockey, see games, become fans and go on to become 60+ goal scorers in the NHL. Sure, you need more players but, the pool to choose from increases.

the ECHL HAS TRACKED every player to the NHL at points giving updates to fans on a consistent basis, even when those casual/hardcore fans don't necessarily follow each of the 29 markets that the League has undertaken... never mind the the termination of markets that the E faced repeatedly with Augusta/Fresno bailing before the season ended, and the case w/ Newfoundland collapsing late last season forcing the quick change to the North Division playoff qualification rule... AS OF NOW, according to the ECHL Alumni tracker.... 756 PLAYERS/Coaches/Executives have transferred from an ECHL Franchise to an NHL Franchise...

 

[adsfan]

Tonight on ESPN 21, NHL hockey hits the ice with the Mexico City Not A Soccer Team taking on the Omaha Warren Buffets!

Omaha Knights.

 

[adsfan]

Terrible. Canadian division was a dumb experiment last time, so why repeat this dumb experiment? So canucks will always be playing in eastern time zone which is completely dumb and travel distance is dumb too. 40 NHL teams is a stupid idea, especially if each division will have 10 teams.

How about 8 divisions of 5 each?

 

[adsfan]

Wisconsin still not having a team in a 40 team NHL would be tragic.

Madison is up to about 250k and still growing.

Milwaukee is more like down to 580K. Who would be the owner(s). What company will sponsor them that already isn't supporting the Packers, Brewers and Bucks?

Miller isn't even called Miller anymore, it is Molson Coors, based in Chicago. A stupid decision since Miller had 6 breweries and Coors had just one. I believe that Rockwell is HQed in Cleveland. Fiserv is sponsoring the Bucks arena, American Family Insurance is sponsoring the Brewers stadium. The Packers will probably keep the name Lambeau Field until falls down in 2087.

 

[jcbio11]

Badly is the answer. 32 is a lot already.

 

[Sgt Schultz]

it is fun to imagine it. somehow all the soccer leagues in europe manage those hurdles. more teams grows the sport and there is great in season drama to all the pain and joy of relegation and promotion. it also completely transforms a second division into a place with hope and aspiration. imagine all the ahl players thinking they might make it to the show by promotion and how that might affect the play.

and if you really want to make it interesting, allow the top 2 promoted teams in the second division into the stanley cup playoffs.

It is only fun if you don't think about the consequences. It's fun to think about what you are going to do with the money when you win the lottery, but then reality sets in.

Because it works in Europe and in soccer does not mean it will work in North America and in hockey, specifically the NHL. Many of the reasons it will crater (and actually never be considered) have been discussed here.

But here is another one. Once a team is demoted, how does it get out of jail? Are FA's going to sign with a team that has zero chance of making the playoffs the following year, let alone winning a cup? Even if they wanted to, the hit to the team's attendance and thus cash flow would preclude them from spending the money. They'd be down to drafting and hoping, or signing low level FA's who are mostly trying to stay in the league. Hell, even if they pull themselves up to a lower level big league team, are quality FA's going to sign knowing they could well be in jail again the following season? It would make the uphill battle losing teams face even steeper. It's potentially just the on-ice version of the financial death spiral they would also face.

As for AHL players, they already think they may make it to the NHL by promotion.......their own. That is the whole purpose of the AHL: to develop players.

 

[ShaneinTpa]

Shit

 

[wetcoast]

Other than southern Ontario, I don't see a rock solid option coming out of Canada, and that would also be tricky because the leafs would probably have alot to say in regards to another team walking into their territory.

What you don't think that Saskatoon could support an NHL city? I mean Regina is only a 2.5 hour drive away and those roads are even better in the winter.....ya they aren't getting an NHL team anytime.

Houston, phoenix/Scottsdale, and Atlanta are the tantalizing markets left on the board, IMO... which would make it 35 teams.

I could see the NHL owners wanting the money for expansion teams but wonder on the timeline and order.

For those saying there aren't enough players, that's hogwash there is tons of talent out there but the nHL game isn't all about talent.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

I think the biggest problem is the lack of elite hockey talent. There's a ton of AHL stars that would do fine as middle six wingers. There's enough grinders out there to fill 1000 NHL 4th lines. At any given time there's ~2 elite goalies, ~3 great goalies, 10 good goalies and a whole lot of mediocrity. There's about 15 teams worth of true first line/pairing talent.

Most teams would be severely lacking in some way, and I'm actually fine with that. What would suck is when someone manages to build a team with an elite core. Imagine what Edmonton would do to the league if everyone had similarly mediocre depth and one less great piece. McDavid can nearly carry a team single-handedly in a league that's 25% more dense in talent.

There are a lot more middle sixers in Europe than in the AHL, also goalies who would do ok, especially as backups.

A 40 team league would make the league more watered down but it's not AS bad as people think. Everytime there's an expansion we also get a couple of players like William Karlsson and McCann who emerge as top 6 players.

 

[Ub the Bub]

Terribly watered down and incredibly boring talent wise. I wouldn't watch it.

People keep saying this, but at the same time, we could have 60 team league and the skill of the average player would still be higher than the average player in the 80's, just because average skill is just so much higher these days. Like take any moderately skilled 4th liner in the NHL right now, time travel them to the 80's and they'd be a superstar.

Not saying that I want more teams, but skill dilution argument is a bit of a weird one.

 

[Lunatik]

I'll bite...

Eastern Conference:

Division 1	Divisionn 2	Division 3	Division 4
Boston Bruins	Montreal Canadiens	Atlanta Thrashers	New Jersey Devils
Buffalo Sabres	Ottawa Senators	Carolina Hurricanes	New York Islanders
Cincinnati Cyclones	Quebec Nordiques	Florida Panthers	New York Rangers
Columbus Blue Jackets	Toronto Beavers	Tampa Bay Lightning	Philadelphia Flyers
Detroit Red Wings	Toronto Maple Leafs	Washington Capitals	Pittsburgh Penguins

Western Conference:

Division 5	Division 6	Division 7	Division 8
Calgary Flames	Anaheim Ducks	Colorado Avalanche	Chicago Blackhawks
Edmonton Oilers	Los Angeles Kings	Dallas Stars	Milwaukee Admirals
Portland Rosebuds	Phoenix Coyotes	Houston Aeros	Minnesota Wild
Seattle Kraken	San Jose Sharks	Nashville Predators	Utah Yeti
Vancouver Canucks	Vegas Golden Knights	St. Louis Blues	Winnipeg Jets

80-Game Schedule:

• vs Division Opponents: 5 Games (20 total)
• vs Teams in Brother/Sister Division (D1 v D2, D3 v D4, D5 v D6, D7 v D8): 4 Games (20 total)
• vs Remaining Teams in Same Conference: 2 Games (20 total)
• vs Teams in Other Conference: 1 Game (20 total)

Playoff Format:

16 Teams. 8 Division Winners, 8 Wildcards (4 per Conference)
Seeded 1-8 in Conference by points.

• Round 1 - Conference Quarter-Final - 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5
• Round 2 - Conference Semi-Final - Reseeded within Conference -1v4, 2v3
• Round 3 - Championship Semi-Final - All teams reseeded - 1v4, 2v3
• Round 4 - Stanley Cup Championship

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

it was an idea. it quite obviously it would require a huge range of changes to implement. it's also quite obvious the changes could be made to work since the system i am proposing prevails all over europe in soccer.

For f***s sake, it...doesnt...work...in...north...america

The only reason it works in Europe is because soccer teams are like college football here. Fans turn out no matter what because of the local pride aspect. It is impossible to implement in pro sports here, no one will show up to watch a team play in the minor leagues, plain and simple

 

[Toby91ca]

*Hamilton: A 2nd team in the GTA (Greater Toronto Area) would 100% work and instant rivals with the Leafs and Sens
*Saskatoon: They almost got the Blues and they would get the entire Saskatchewan province

Just to be a prick......Hamilton is not part of the GTA....but don't disagree, potential option for team.

Saskatoon....I see no chance at all, ever. I don't think they ever "almost" got the Blues. The Blues were acquired with a potential desire to move them to Saskatoon, but it was always a bit of pipe dream that had no real chance of happening. Also, at the time, the purchase price was $11M. I think these days the chances are exponentially more remote from the original fantasy type chances.

I haven't read through all these pages, but I suspect there would be people moaning about how the league is too big already, a 40 team league would be garbage, etc. Some of that may be true at a point in time, but if populations continue to grow and the talent pool worldwide grows, math just maths....so it shouldn't be scoffed at.

 

[CTHabsfan]

People keep saying this, but at the same time, we could have 60 team league and the skill of the average player would still be higher than the average player in the 80's, just because average skill is just so much higher these days. Like take any moderately skilled 4th liner in the NHL right now, time travel them to the 80's and they'd be a superstar.

Not saying that I want more teams, but skill dilution argument is a bit of a weird one.

I think saying 4th liners of today would be superstars in a 21-team NHL of the Eighties is an overreach. In all fairness, can we also have some strength & conditioning coaches, skating coaches, sports psychologists, video coaches, doctors and nutritionists travel back to the Eighties to help out those 1980s players? Maybe they can even bring modern skates, sticks, etc.

 

[krutovsdonut]

For f***s sake, it...doesnt...work...in...north...america

The only reason it works in Europe is because soccer teams are like college football here. Fans turn out no matter what because of the local pride aspect. It is impossible to implement in pro sports here, no one will show up to watch a team play in the minor leagues, plain and simple

disagree. the rabid american support of college football actually confirms that there is potential for parochial second tier sports leagues based on tribal mentality and factors other than watching the "best of the best". college football is exciting but it is also frequently awful and the fans don't care. same can be said of the cfl. you can sell sizzle as well as steak in north america america if you find the right mix.

there are also outdated practical reasons north american major sports evolved differently from europe to exist only in large cities with travel distances and costs at the top of the list, making secondary leagues uneconomic except as farm teams run on a shoestring. the cost of travel as a proportion of operating costs has diminished significantly. even in the 1980s it was a big deal for nhl teams to use private jets, and now the wnba has them. right now the ahl is expanding into western states because the travel costs are not as big a factor any more and western nhl teams gain benefits from having their farm teams close by.

so to me a two tier system will work fine and provide compelling sports entertainment in both leagues if the circumstances align for it. for example, suppose someone started a stand alone second tier hockey league in between the current ahl and nhl and got some traction with it in secondary markets the nhl would not touch. not easy to do but not impossible. if someone pulled it off there might eventually be a situation where the leagues needed to merge for financial or talent management reasons. at that point a promotion/relegation system to manage the merger of differently tiered leagues might be compelling.

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

disagree. the rabid american support of college football actually confirms that there is potential for parochial second tier sports leagues based on tribal mentality and factors other than watching the "best of the best". college football is exciting but it is also frequently awful and the fans don't care. same can be said of the cfl. you can sell sizzle as well as steak in north america america if you find the right mix.

there are also outdated practical reasons north american major sports evolved differently from europe to exist only in large cities with travel distances and costs at the top of the list, making secondary leagues uneconomic except as farm teams run on a shoestring. the cost of travel as a proportion of operating costs has diminished significantly. even in the 1980s it was a big deal for nhl teams to use private jets, and now the wnba has them. right now the ahl is expanding into western states because the travel costs are not as big a factor any more and western nhl teams gain benefits from having their farm teams close by.

so to me a two tier system will work fine and provide compelling sports entertainment in both leagues if the circumstances align for it. for example, suppose someone started a stand alone second tier hockey league in between the current ahl and nhl and got some traction with it in secondary markets the nhl would not touch. not easy to do but not impossible. if someone pulled it off there might eventually be a situation where the leagues needed to merge for financial or talent management reasons. at that point a promotion/relegation system to manage the merger of differently tiered leagues might be compelling.

it didn't.....

why did the International Hockey League cease operations and become a footnote in hockey history in 2001..... when you drop to less than 6 teams in a league it becomes economically disadvantageous..... same thing with the West Coast Hockey League .... why since 2003 have both the IHL/WCHL ceased and those remaining franchises when those leagues ceased operations never went to the AHL.... in fact, Fort Wayne is a prime example of such a franchise after the collapse of the UHL, Which their ownership bankrolled..... all of those franchises were accepted by the ECHL.... WHY IS THERE no level outside of the SPHL/FPHL today are Class A hockey pro leagues... and that is if there's no junior league level franchises like the USHL/USPHL and NAHL/NA3HL in the US and the CHL marketed leagues in Canada....

 

[Lunatik]

disagree. the rabid american support of college football actually confirms that there is potential for parochial second tier sports leagues based on tribal mentality and factors other than watching the "best of the best". college football is exciting but it is also frequently awful and the fans don't care. same can be said of the cfl. you can sell sizzle as well as steak in north america america if you find the right mix.

there are also outdated practical reasons north american major sports evolved differently from europe to exist only in large cities with travel distances and costs at the top of the list, making secondary leagues uneconomic except as farm teams run on a shoestring. the cost of travel as a proportion of operating costs has diminished significantly. even in the 1980s it was a big deal for nhl teams to use private jets, and now the wnba has them. right now the ahl is expanding into western states because the travel costs are not as big a factor any more and western nhl teams gain benefits from having their farm teams close by.

so to me a two tier system will work fine and provide compelling sports entertainment in both leagues if the circumstances align for it. for example, suppose someone started a stand alone second tier hockey league in between the current ahl and nhl and got some traction with it in secondary markets the nhl would not touch. not easy to do but not impossible. if someone pulled it off there might eventually be a situation where the leagues needed to merge for financial or talent management reasons. at that point a promotion/relegation system to manage the merger of differently tiered leagues might be compelling.

another major difference between hockey, NCAAF and Euro Soccer is in hockey they play more games per week... it is also more of a niche sport... so unless it starts w/ a relegation system from the start, it can't ever happen

 

[teravaineSAROS]

I think saying 4th liners of today would be superstars in a 21-team NHL of the Eighties is an overreach. In all fairness, can we also have some strength & conditioning coaches, skating coaches, sports psychologists, video coaches, doctors and nutritionists travel back to the Eighties to help out those 1980s players? Maybe they can even bring modern skates, sticks, etc.

The league was nowhere near as internationally competitive as it is today. I'm not saying the 4th liners of today would be superstars but the 4th liners back then would be in the ECHL today (with modern equipment, nutrition and so on)

 

[SEALBound]

Guys like McDavid, MacKinnon, Kucherov, Matthews, etc would be hitting career bests in goals and points. They would feast on the low quality depth needed to fill out rosters.

 

[CTHabsfan]

The league was nowhere near as internationally competitive as it is today. I'm not saying the 4th liners of today would be superstars but the 4th liners back then would be in the ECHL today (with modern equipment, nutrition and so on)

Another overreach. Yes, the NHL has more international players now, however there were only 21 NHL teams back in the Eighties. Seeing as how the league has had a 50% increase in teams and there are now 32 AHL teams, I seriously doubt NHL 4th-liners from the Eighties (with the benefit of modern equipment, nutrition and so on) would now be ECHL players. The only exception might be Eighties goons, but there are also players from that time who never made the NHL due to their small stature, something which would not be a problem today.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Fiserv is sponsoring the Bucks arena,

If Milwaukee ever gets a team thats where they will play.

 

[MNRube]

The current Flames would be a typical roster. Maybe above average

 

[nucks88]

Awesome…..it will be great to see drafting out of the Madagascar Third Division…..

 

[Golden_Jet]

disagree. the rabid american support of college football actually confirms that there is potential for parochial second tier sports leagues based on tribal mentality and factors other than watching the "best of the best". college football is exciting but it is also frequently awful and the fans don't care. same can be said of the cfl. you can sell sizzle as well as steak in north america america if you find the right mix.

there are also outdated practical reasons north american major sports evolved differently from europe to exist only in large cities with travel distances and costs at the top of the list, making secondary leagues uneconomic except as farm teams run on a shoestring. the cost of travel as a proportion of operating costs has diminished significantly. even in the 1980s it was a big deal for nhl teams to use private jets, and now the wnba has them. right now the ahl is expanding into western states because the travel costs are not as big a factor any more and western nhl teams gain benefits from having their farm teams close by.

so to me a two tier system will work fine and provide compelling sports entertainment in both leagues if the circumstances align for it. for example, suppose someone started a stand alone second tier hockey league in between the current ahl and nhl and got some traction with it in secondary markets the nhl would not touch. not easy to do but not impossible. if someone pulled it off there might eventually be a situation where the leagues needed to merge for financial or talent management reasons. at that point a promotion/relegation system to manage the merger of differently tiered leagues might be compelling.

Luckily owners would never allow it,
How does a relgated team deal with a $10 million contract per year, they can’t afford.

It’s just a really dumb idea.

 

[teravaineSAROS]

Another overreach. Yes, the NHL has more international players now, however there were only 21 NHL teams back in the Eighties. Seeing as how the league has had a 50% increase in teams and there are now 32 AHL teams, I seriously doubt NHL 4th-liners from the Eighties (with the benefit of modern equipment, nutrition and so on) would now be ECHL players. The only exception might be Eighties goons, but there are also players from that time who never made the NHL due to their small stature, something which would not be a problem today.

Yea I was a bit harsh there, I forgot to take into consideration that there are actually a lot of players in the AHL with 32 teams.