Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

keonsbitterness

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You also ignored this part



Do you believe Dubas now? The guy lots of you call a liar and snake, or Belfry?

If we are going by this article, we also have confirmed offer sheets raising prices.



So let's say Tavares lifted the cap on the team, that's why everyone is slightly overpaid, and then the offer sheets and pandemic ruined everything even more I guess.

I hope you never mention offer sheets not existing and you start defending that point when it is brought up.

I also hope you join a lot of us in saying the pandemic was a huge contributing factor to the contracts looking so bad.

Thanks for joining us in our fight against the idiots who think these things didn't affect the Leafs.
I don't discount the effect of covid, but losing to Columbus and Montreal, two relatively mediocre playoff teams, should have told them something. That was the time to pivot by moving off a core player. Dubas said during fall 2021 training camp that the idea was explored but rejected.

I expect Marner to be re-signed, so all we can do now is hope they figure it out.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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You also ignored this part



Do you believe Dubas now? The guy lots of you call a liar and snake, or Belfry?

If we are going by this article, we also have confirmed offer sheets raising prices.



So let's say Tavares lifted the cap on the team, that's why everyone is slightly overpaid, and then the offer sheets and pandemic ruined everything even more I guess.

I hope you never mention offer sheets not existing and you start defending that point when it is brought up.

I also hope you join a lot of us in saying the pandemic was a huge contributing factor to the contracts looking so bad.

Thanks for joining us in our fight against the idiots who think these things didn't affect the Leafs.

The problem with the $90 million cap hypothesis is everyone else has $90 million too. You think the 2020 and 2021 Tampa Bay Lightning would have been a worse with an extra $10 million in talent?
 

notbias

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Feb 16, 2017
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The problem with the $90 million cap hypothesis is everyone else has $90 million too. You think the 2020 and 2021 Tampa Bay Lightning would have been a worse with an extra $10 million in talent?

I don't think Covid affected all teams the same.

You can argue if they were bad contracts all you want, but the question is around whether any team was affected more by Covid, not on how good the contracts were, they are two separate issues.

And maybe I am wrong, but I am going to take an educated guess and say they were one of the teams most affected by Covid.
 

notbias

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I don't discount the effect of covid, but losing to Columbus and Montreal, two relatively mediocre playoff teams, should have told them something. That was the time to pivot by moving off a core player. Dubas said during fall 2021 training camp that the idea was explored but rejected.

I expect Marner to be re-signed, so all we can do now is hope they figure it out.

The Columbus series was worse than Montreal.

With the way people talk about the Montreal series, it is like no one watched it.

Montreal got outplayed, and Price won them the series, I guess maybe get rid of guys who can't finish, so get rid of Matthews and Hyman as they had the most chances, but the goalie outplayed the players, not the team.

Not related to you, but I also find it funny how important this board thinks the cap is, and then still think we should have won the Montreal series even though they were missing $10 million in cap, seems like an easy loss for the people who think cap wins games.
 
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keonsbitterness

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The Columbus series was worse than Montreal.

With the way people talk about the Montreal series, it is like no one watched it.

Montreal got outplayed, and Price won them the series, I guess maybe get rid of guys who can't finish, so get rid of Matthews and Hyman as they had the most chances, but the goalie outplayed the players, not the team.

Not related to you, but I also find it funny how important this board thinks the cap is, and then still think we should have won the Montreal series even though they were missing $10 million in cap, seems like an easy loss for the people who think cap wins games.
We had a 3-1 lead without $10 million. That's when good playoff teams smell blood and close it out.
 
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hotpaws

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Nov 21, 2009
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You are picking and choosing what you consider to be fact.

One person in the organization says "This was the issue" and another says "That wasn't the issue, this was the issue".

Who is believable in this situation?

The other statements about offer sheets being an issue (always gets disputed on here), and Covid being the main issue, are those facts as well?

On a side note, childish nicknames for people make you look like a "Dubas", just FYI.
you have it wrong

Dumbass was asked what he thought his biggest mistake was and he said when he gave JT the biggest cap hit in the NHL it blew the lid off the Marner and Mathews ask , his buddy didn't dispute that , he was just making excuses for why Dumbass f***ed up like you and others do

the statement of an offer sheet was in reference to why he overpaid Nylander albeit to a lesser extent than Tavares/Mathews and Marner

but i will agree that there Dumbass was partly bs'ing , he had all summer to re-sign Marner for much cheaper when his original ask was rumored to be 8.5 x 8 but instead of negotiating honestly he low balled him in his agents words , slow played it and f***ed himself

also i'll call your bestie whatever i like , if it upsets you that much you can join him in Pitt and i'll give you some names of more his followers you can take with you
 
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All Mod Cons

Registered User
Sep 7, 2018
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Kyle Dubas did so much damage in such a short period of time, we won't be able to recover in Matthews' tenure as a Leaf. It was painfully obvious after the Columbus series we needed go move off from Tavares and Marner strictly from a numbers point of view. Management refused to do it and now we'll just spin our wheels for another 5 or so years.
 

BrannigansLaw

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We had a 3-1 lead without $10 million. That's when good playoff teams smell blood and close it out.

Don’t even bother. Some of these posters heads are completely lodged up their homer asses at this point.

They’ll just come back with the same garbage next year when we get bounced in round 1. Assuming we make the playoffs
 

IPS

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Sep 28, 2017
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Not related to you, but I also find it funny how important this board thinks the cap is, and then still think we should have won the Montreal series even though they were missing $10 million in cap, seems like an easy loss for the people who think cap wins games.
That is so hilarious that you and Dekes will happily bring up this yet completely and utterly ignore that we were missing BOTH Mattews and Nylander for portions of last Boston series, and just decide to squeal about Treliving and his acquisitions and why they lost us the series.

It's such weak minded nonsense.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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You're 100% right correct post-ELC & 2nd cost controllable RFA contracts are not like 3rd UFA contracts. That does remain true.
Only problem YOU and more importantly Leafs own GM Dubas don't understand what a RFA contract is either.
I do. GMs like Dubas do. You don't. If you did, you would know what the landscape of post-ELC contracts actually looks like, and understand what has been proven to you time and time again - that Marner's contract (10th biggest post-ELC in cap era after 6th best pre-signing period, with a pay gap matching the production gaps of his closest historical comparables) is consistent with the history of post-ELC contracts, and does not correlate with Tavares or UFA contracts in any way.

If you wanted to discuss the actual reasons he got that amount, you wouldn't be altering quotes and extrapolating things that weren't even said in an attempt to fit the narrative that you want to be true. If you actually cared about a proper evaluation, you wouldn't be equating bridge and non-bridge contracts, looking exclusively at single-season raw production, and ignoring all other context like how that production was generated and who and what is driving that production - the player in question, or the 128 point MVP line driver with a 40 point gap over them. Maintainable underlying numbers, or shooting 40% on the PP. It's not exactly a surprise that Point fell back to 0.9 P/GP on his contract, and Marner has improved to 1.24 P/GP through his.

Point's contract was in fact historically very good, and cap hell forcing Tampa into a bridge ended up being beneficial to them with the covid stagnated cap, but searching for the best cherry picked contracts and then presenting them in misleading ways does not make another contract bad/UFA or the signing the wrong choice. If anything, Point is the one to take a more abnormal contract path and amount, and things would not have gone any better for us with a different GM. It likely would have gone much worse, especially if Lou "take time if you have it" Lam had stayed and negotiated with the player he lied and stole bonus money from.

You spend all this time rallying against the best GM we've had in decades, that gave us the best teams we've had in decades, because he *gasp* signed his 21-year old core to contracts that have been outperformed, and were consistent with the history of the same type of contract. And yet when the next GM - with all of the additional information - actually overpays a core member to a contract that will be more difficult to outperform, while wasting millions elsewhere and making us worse, you praise him.

The most interesting piece of information in that article was actually the claim that Nylander's holdout was a result of yet another offer sheet threat.
 
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notbias

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Feb 16, 2017
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That is so hilarious that you and Dekes will happily bring up this yet completely and utterly ignore that we were missing BOTH Mattews and Nylander for portions of last Boston series, and just decide to squeal about Treliving and his acquisitions and why they lost us the series.

It's such weak minded nonsense.

Okay, I know reading is hard, but can you point out where I used Tavares going down as an excuse?

Montreal was in the question so I used that series.

This board obsesses over cap, in the Montreal series, Toronto was missing $10 million... not sure why people think we should have won that series when the cap is so important.

The same can apply to the Boston series.

I really think you should slow down and read the posts you quote before you reply, it will save everyone a lot of time.
 

Dekes For Days

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Sep 24, 2018
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Discrediting present Kyle to protect past Kyle will be an interesting piece of internet for sure.
It's certainly been interesting watching people who have spent years discrediting everything Kyle has ever said suddenly using a partial quote from him in an unreleased book to claim something that he didn't even say.
 

Punch Drunk Loov

Thought Viktor Loov was going to be a guy
Dec 6, 2011
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Picturing us beating two of Tampa, Florida, Boston in a row, and then two more teams is uncomprehensible.

I remember seeing Iron Maiden at the ACC and Bruce Dickinson clearly didn't follow hockey but he brought up the Leafs between songs and said, they're not great are they?

Just GOATed losers. Could care less about "asset management", can't stand looking at these guys
 

Gabriel426

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Jun 30, 2015
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I beg to differ,

Patty Marleau was a great mentor and beloved by Marner and Matthews and almost essentially adopted into the Marleau Family.

When Lou Lam brought Patty in to help the young players and set the example he did his job.

In 2017-18 playoffs Marleau almost helped the Leafs win a tough 7 game 1st round series against Boston.

View attachment 897001

He lead the Leafs in goals with 4 (which was what Marner & Matthews & Nylander combined scored)

View attachment 897000

After losing the 1st 2 games Marleau rallied the Leafs with 2 goals in game #3 giving the Leafs a win and avoiding potential series sweep after losing game #4.

View attachment 897011

In game #7 Patty Marleau set the stage for a potential Leafs series win by scoring the first 2 goals for the Leafs where Leafs were up 4-3 heading into the 3rd period.

View attachment 897005

I don't think you could expect much more than that in terms of making an impact.

To call the Leafs leading playoff goal scorer a mistake to help a young team try and win a playoff round is misdirected, IMO
Gotta disagree.
When you look at AM, MM and even Willie, they all pretty much play like Marleau and how many Cups did Marleau win despite being healthy for 20 seasons?
Marleau is a typical Beta type player while AM, MM and Willie were supposed to be Alpha. But they just don’t have that Alpha mentality.
 

Stephen

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Feb 28, 2002
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It's certainly been interesting watching people who have spent years discrediting everything Kyle has ever said suddenly using a partial quote from him in an unreleased book to claim something that he didn't even say.

Would be curious to see how you can ascertain between what Kyle is saying vs what he isn’t saying.

In any case when the book comes out, will be interested to see your take on Kyle vs Kyle.
 

Stephen

Moderator
Feb 28, 2002
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Gotta disagree.
When you look at AM, MM and even Willie, they all pretty much play like Marleau and how many Cups did Marleau win despite being healthy for 20 seasons?
Marleau is a typical Beta type player while AM, MM and Willie were supposed to be Alpha. But they just don’t have that Alpha mentality.

This is the scouting report for Patrick Marleau from the 1997 THN Draft Preview. When I go through it he verbiage it reads a lot like Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner and the ups and downs of their Toronto Maple Leafs.

Talent, skill, lack of intensity and consistency and lacking the extra gear. Strength and playing without the puck not really an issue.

1722009629161.jpeg
 

notbias

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Feb 16, 2017
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Would be curious to see how you can ascertain between what Kyle is saying vs what he isn’t saying.

In any case when the book comes out, will be interested to see your take on Kyle vs Kyle.

Are we taking the book as gospel? I'm fine taking Dubas at his word as long as you take the other employee from the Leafs at theirs and the rest of the info from that book as truth.

Dubas said that the Tavares signing increased the cap of all the players, ok, fair.

We now know that Marner and Nylander were offer sheeted and that increased their cap (it did in Nylander's case for sure according to the same article that has the Dubas quote). Matthews was also going to get an offer sheet and it was known, according to Freidman.

Another employee for the Leafs during the signings said the big issue was Covid and that Dubas would never say that, so that is likely why he is citing the Tavares signing.

So what truths are we taking from this article? I think they can all be true, but then we just go back to arguing which is most important.

This is the scouting report for Patrick Marleau from the 1997 THN Draft Preview. When I go through it he verbiage it reads a lot like Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner and the ups and downs of their Toronto Maple Leafs.

Talent, skill, lack of intensity and consistency and lacking the extra gear. Strength and playing without the puck not really an issue.

View attachment 897224

Sounds nothing like Marner/Matthews.

Marner may shy away from contact sometimes, but does Matthews?

This honestly sounds most like Nylander of the three.

"Talent, skill, lack of intensity and consistency and lacking the extra gear." - that is Nylander, and luckily it looks like he is finding the extra gear more consistently, but it's still him.

This is the version of Matthews/Marner people think they see, but it is not grounded in reality.
 

BrannigansLaw

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Are we taking the book as gospel? I'm fine taking Dubas at his word as long as you take the other employee from the Leafs at theirs and the rest of the info from that book as truth.

Dubas said that the Tavares signing increased the cap of all the players, ok, fair.

We now know that Marner and Nylander were offer sheeted and that increased their cap (it did in Nylander's case for sure according to the same article that has the Dubas quote). Matthews was also going to get an offer sheet and it was known, according to Freidman.

Another employee for the Leafs during the signings said the big issue was Covid and that Dubas would never say that, so that is likely why he is citing the Tavares signing.

So what truths are we taking from this article? I think they can all be true, but then we just go back to arguing which is most important.



Sounds nothing like Marner/Matthews.

Marner may shy away from contact sometimes, but does Matthews?

This honestly sounds most like Nylander of the three.

"Talent, skill, lack of intensity and consistency and lacking the extra gear." - that is Nylander, and luckily it looks like he is finding the extra gear more consistently, but it's still him.

This is the version of Matthews/Marner people think they see, but it is not grounded in reality.

You’re fine taking Dubas at his word even after what he pulled when he got his ass fired?

LOL
 

notbias

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Feb 16, 2017
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You’re fine taking Dubas at his word even after what he pulled when he got his ass fired?

LOL

So are we ignoring the quote now? The people who hate Dubas keep quoting it as fact, not me.

I think he did some bad things when leaving and so did Shanny, the whole thing was a mess.

Dubas should have negotiated what he wanted earlier in the process and not last minute, and Shanny should have stuck to his original plan and not been driven by emotion.

But I am assuming you're saying his word means nothing because he said he'd only want to be in Toronto and then took the job of a lifetime in Pittsburgh, if that is the case, I don't blame him for taking that.

I think most people are upset with that scenario because they can't separate their feelings and logic, but if there is another "lie" he told, I'd love to hear it.
 

usernamezrhardtodo

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Mar 26, 2014
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I don't discount the effect of covid, but losing to Columbus and Montreal, two relatively mediocre playoff teams, should have told them something. That was the time to pivot by moving off a core player. Dubas said during fall 2021 training camp that the idea was explored but rejected.

I expect Marner to be re-signed, so all we can do now is hope they figure it out.
The whole "Covid messed up our strategy" excuse is almost comical. Kind of like that Movie Ants...where the ants are trotting in a line and encounter a leaf and all of them stop...befuddled until someone tells them to go around it.

Covid was unexpected...but insisting on your strategy when it called for alterations is why I think Dubas and Shanny ruined whatever good chances we had to make something special over the last several years.
 

Mess

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Feb 27, 2002
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Gotta disagree.
When you look at AM, MM and even Willie, they all pretty much play like Marleau and how many Cups did Marleau win despite being healthy for 20 seasons?
Marleau is a typical Beta type player while AM, MM and Willie were supposed to be Alpha. But they just don’t have that Alpha mentality.
One could actually argue the removing Marleau was a big mistake.

Leafs fought Boston to a game #7 round #1 loss with Marleau in 2017-18 while Patty lead the Leafs in goals with 4. Then after Dubas signed Tavares and dumped Marleau with Leafs 1st, ( Seth Jarvis) then replacing Babcock with Keefe the Leafs went on to embarrassing lose to Columbus in the best of 5 play-in series in top 24 teams. {With all games played in bubble at ACC home games for Leafs).

1722009544826.png


Leafs won only 2 games and got Shutout in 2 others while losing 3 and didn't even make the top 16 teams losing in play-in. Sacrificing a 1st produced WORST playoff results post Marleau.

Speaking of that 1st it became Seth Jarvis when Carolina used Leafs 13th overall.

Seth Jarvis playoff results past 3 years. (2021-22 thru 2023-24) Jarvis finished 2nd in Carolina scoring.

1722010425679.png


Compared to Tavares and the other Core 4 (3 X $11 mil players).

1722010998616.png


22 year old Seth Jarvis (playing on his ELC contract) @ $894k (the draft pick used) to Dump Marleau, has scored more goals and more points than all 4 of Leafs Core the past 3 playoffs combined.

1722011580445.png


So remind me again what did Leafs gain by signing JT and dumping Marleau final year of his contract?
 

keonsbitterness

Registered User
Sep 14, 2010
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south of Steeles
One could actually argue the removing Marleau was a big mistake.

Leafs fought Boston to a game #7 round #1 loss with Marleau in 2017-18 while Patty lead the Leafs in goals with 4. Then after Dubas signed Tavares and dumped Marleau with Leafs 1st, ( Seth Jarvis) then replacing Babcock with Keefe the Leafs went on to embarrassing lose to Columbus in the best of 5 play-in series in top 24 teams. {With all games played in bubble at ACC home games for Leafs).

View attachment 897221

Leafs won only 2 games and got Shutout in 2 others while losing 3 and didn't even make the top 16 teams losing in play-in. Sacrificing a 1st produced WORST playoff results post Marleau.

Speaking of that 1st it became Seth Jarvis when Carolina used Leafs 13th overall.

Seth Jarvis playoff results past 3 years. (2021-22 thru 2023-24) Jarvis finished 2nd in Carolina scoring.

View attachment 897226

Compared to Tavares and the other Core 4 (3 X $11 mil players).

View attachment 897229

22 year old Seth Jarvis (playing on his ELC contract) @ $894k (the draft pick used) to Dump Marleau, has scored more goals and more points than all 4 of Leafs Core the past 3 playoffs combined.

View attachment 897232

So remind me again what did Leafs gain by signing JT and dumping Marleau final year of his contract?
Biggest tribute to Marleau's one decent year as a Leaf EVER!

But where is the in-depth analysis of his outstanding 2019 playoff? Or his outstanding 2020 playoff with the Penguins?
 
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Racer88

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Sep 29, 2020
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There are dozens and dozens of worst move made over the tenure of Dubas. He will certainly become a clinic of how not to build a contending team
 

notbias

Registered User
Feb 16, 2017
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One could actually argue the removing Marleau was a big mistake.

Leafs fought Boston to a game #7 round #1 loss with Marleau in 2017-18 while Patty lead the Leafs in goals with 4. Then after Dubas signed Tavares and dumped Marleau with Leafs 1st, ( Seth Jarvis) then replacing Babcock with Keefe the Leafs went on to embarrassing lose to Columbus in the best of 5 play-in series in top 24 teams. {With all games played in bubble at ACC home games for Leafs).

View attachment 897221

Leafs won only 2 games and got Shutout in 2 others while losing 3 and didn't even make the top 16 teams losing in play-in. Sacrificing a 1st produced WORST playoff results post Marleau.

Speaking of that 1st it became Seth Jarvis when Carolina used Leafs 13th overall.

Seth Jarvis playoff results past 3 years. (2021-22 thru 2023-24) Jarvis finished 2nd in Carolina scoring.

View attachment 897226

Compared to Tavares and the other Core 4 (3 X $11 mil players).

View attachment 897229

22 year old Seth Jarvis (playing on his ELC contract) @ $894k (the draft pick used) to Dump Marleau, has scored more goals and more points than all 4 of Leafs Core the past 3 playoffs combined.

View attachment 897232

So remind me again what did Leafs gain by signing JT and dumping Marleau final year of his contract?

It would be a shame if you used logic and PPG instead of raw totals for different amounts of games played... always a Mess.

All your post did was convince me that Aho is a playoff scrub worse than Marner, Matthews, and Nylander.
 

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