Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Lou just overpaid Horvat and said he knew he did... Why do people always pretend Lou is a tough negotiator?

Treliving has given the worst contract out of every GM you've mentioned and has given out tons of overpayments for 4th liners and fringe NHL players, not to mention Matthews and Nylander.

Every GM gives out bad contracts, it comes with the job.

Doesn't change the fact that Lou and Treliving are better GM's than Dubas is.

Nylander Isn't a bad contract and he won't be a bad contract baring injury for about 6 years.

The last year or 2 might be ugly but It's 2024, not 2031

 

[Menzinger]

I'm Pretty sure they were juggling between Marner & Hanifin when their pick came up. So Im ng they take Hanifin at 4 if Yotes go with Marner. But who knows I've heard some say they wanted Strome.

Mirtle wrote before the draft that Babcock wanted Hanifin. And that they had given extra interviews/meetings with Provorov, Werenski and Rantanen. Hunter obviously has his eyes set on Marner

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Well, makes one wonder how much Influence Marleau has on their views on contracts over those dinner table conversations.

Marleau was set up well for retirement getting 18+ mil as a 37 year old while other older vets opted to sign for league minimum deals.

Marleau was

Well, makes one wonder how much Influence Marleau has on their views on contracts over those dinner table conversations.

Marleau was set up well for retirement getting 18+ mil as a 37 year old while other older vets opted to sign for league minimum deals.

How many of those vets were coming off a 27 goal season?

You live in the magical land of make believe if you think that Patrick Marleau at 36, coming off a 27 goal season was ever going to sign a minimum deal.
He would also score 27 in Toronto the next year

 

[hotpaws]

Marleau was


How many of those vets were coming off a 27 goal season?

You live in the magical land of make believe if you think that Patrick Marleau at 36, coming off a 27 goal season was ever going to sign a minimum deal.
He would also score 27 in Toronto the next year

he's throwing anything he can against the wall to try to shift the blame away from Dubas even though Dubas came out and said that once he signed JT to that cap hit it blew the top off what Mathews and Marner were asking for

and even though Dumbass said it was JT's deal that drove the price up he still could have signed Marmer after his second season a when it was rumored he was asking for 8.5m

 

[Menzinger]

Marleau was


How many of those vets were coming off a 27 goal season?

You live in the magical land of make believe if you think that Patrick Marleau at 36, coming off a 27 goal season was ever going to sign a minimum deal.
He would also score 27 in Toronto the next year

If Marleau has signed that contract this season it would have been for 7.9 million a year (0.9% of the cap). He had also not hit 50 points in the two preceeding seasons.

How many 37 year old 40-49 point players have signed for almost 8 million dollars in recent years?

I think a better option would have been to have not signed him to begin with and let another team pay him out

he's throwing anything he can against the wall to try to shift the blame away from Dubas even though Dubas came out and said that once he signed JT to that cap hit it blew the top off what Mathews and Marner were asking for

and even though Dumbass said it was JT's deal that drove the price up he still could have signed Marmer after his second season a when it was rumored he was asking for 8.5m

It was likely a mistake to sign Tavares to that contract. What does that have to do with what I've said about Marleau?

Edit: my mistake, was 2 not 3 seasons prior to signing he was >50 points

 

[francis246]

The core would have moved if we asked them to waive their NMC, every other team is able to move out players when entering a rebuild if they are still good players. Players dont want to stay in a rebuilding envirnoment in their primish years

Kessel literally did waive his NMC in 2015 summer and from what I recall he didnt just give us the pens, but he had the panthers and another team I'm forgetting he was willing to waive to

The 2015 team contending was such a non sensical decision its hard to believe we actually tried to be a playoff team after half a decade of routine epic collapses.

That was twice under shanahan he stayed status quo and put off a tough decision to avoid potential for failure/being critiques at the cost of a proper direction and potential for ling term rewards.

The 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2014 Kessel + Phaneuf led core leafs choked epicly in the reg season and failed

2013 we failed in the playoffs in R1 due to a shortened year otherwise likely would have missed the playoffs as well that year.

Shanahan was brought in to make tough decisions, be an advanced thinker and have foresight on direction we needed to go. He failed to do any of that and his 10 year term has been incredibly disapointing starting from 2015 year when he failed to he proactive.

Shanahan + Nonis went for a prayer in 2015 just like Shanahan and Treliving are going for a prayer in 2025.

A decade has paased and Shanahans incompetences hasn't changed. Hes willing to run the status quo and hope for the extremely improbable occurring.

This current core > kessel era core so they arent a risk to miss playoffs, but they are a guaranteed R1 exit.

Shanahan is sticking with this b/c its easier than making tough moves and potentially facing backlash initally for a trade (marner or nylander move) which later helps build up the team to be more complete and win (panthers were mocked initially for huberdeau + weegar + 1st for tkachuk)

2015 we missed out on starting the rebuild right by recoupung assets for bozak + lupul + kessel + phaneuf at their peak values.

2018 - 2020 we held onto own rentals in bozak, jvr, komorav, Gardiner, Andersen, Hyman and lost out on numerous quality picks and prospect chances to build up our depth pool

Management incompetence has been there for a decade. The approach to roster building with Shanahan/Lou/bab, Shanahan/dubas/keefe, Shanahan/Treliving/Berube soon us unlike anyother contending team

Tampa, Avs, Canes, Pens/Caps at their peak etc didnt operate in this manner

We are dysfunctional top to bottom starting from MLSE who doesnt want to change things towards building a winner at cost of potential failure and mid period retool/rebuild

They just signed their extensions in October 2013!!! After a good shortened season and almost beating Boston. There was a lot of buy from the players at that point. There is about a zero percent chance they would have waived 8 months later in June of 2014.

 

[ACC1224]

I'm Pretty sure they were juggling between Marner & Hanifin when their pick came up. So Im ng they take Hanifin at 4 if Yotes go with Marner. But who knows I've heard some say they wanted Strome.

My understanding was Marner and if gone than Provorov. Hunter had Marner ranked 2nd behind McDavid.

 

[hamzarocks]

They just signed their extensions in October 2013!!! After a good shortened season and almost beating Boston. There was a lot of buy from the players at that point. There is about a zero percent chance they would have waived 8 months later in June of 2014.

Your just repeating yourself at this point and its clear we wont agree so wont post about it after this but I just cant see them not waiving their NMCs after a public rebuild is announced and they are asked to waive their NMC. Those guys wanted to win, if we state we are trying to lose, they will play ball and look at going to contenders.

2014 leafs collapsed on March going from 2nd wildcard to 8th OA, the 2013 season was an epic choke of legendary status on its own but the 2014 collapse somehow might have topped that. We had been mired in failure for 12 months since 2013 summer

The opportunity to rebuild was there but we didnt take it. We have to live with that decisions now.

Lets see how the opportunity cost of not retooling/blowing the AM34 core plays out 5 years from now

 

[francis246]

Your just repeating yourself at this point and its clear we wont agree so wont post about it after this but I just cant see them not waiving their NMCs after a public rebuild is announced and they are asked to waive their NMC. Those guys wanted to win, if we state we are trying to lose, they will play ball and look at going to contenders.

2014 leafs collapsed on March going from 2nd wildcard to 8th OA, the 2013 season was an epic choke of legendary status on its own but the 2014 collapse somehow might have topped that. We had been mired in failure for 12 months since 2013 summer

The opportunity to rebuild was there but we didnt take it. We have to live with that decisions now.

Lets see how the opportunity cost of not retooling/blowing the AM34 core plays out 5 years from now

How many players in the modern era, sign an extension and then 8 months later waive to move to another team? And I keep repeating myself because you keep dismissing it like it doesn’t matter but that is a huge factor. I’m the NHL most players who sign extensions and have NMC’s aren’t waiving them immediately. Might take a year or two years but it doesn’t happen months later.

If what you’re saying is true, Kessel and Phanuef would have both asked out after the 2013/14 season if they were so concerned with playing for a winner. Both signed 8-year extensions and were committed to seeing it through in Toronto, do you not think both understood during that 8 years there would be a rebuild? Of course they did. Kessel only gave the leafs 1 spot, probably in an attempt to make it as difficult as possible for the leafs to move him. I don’t think a rebuild would have scared those players as they were still quite young. It wasn’t like they were 35 at the time

 

[hotpaws]

It was likely a mistake to sign Tavares to that contract. What does that have to do with what I've said about Marleau?

Edit: my mistake, was 2 not 3 seasons prior to signing he was >50 points

you were implying Marleau was the reason Marner and Mathews were asking for the moon to deflect criticism away from Dubas and onto Lou when your boy Dubas just literally said there asks jumped threw the roof once he signed Tavares to that cap hit

 

[Superstar]

It made sense to trade Kadri but not getting the right return for him was our biggest mistake. He was a great asset and there were a lot of options in terms of return we could have got, Dubas chose two guys that were not a good fit for this team.

Because Dubas is delusional and drinking a different kind of koolaid. Kadri could have returned at minimal, a solid top 3 shutdown dman, top 2 if lucky to play with Rielly...instead he got 2 smurfs...Sakic fleeced Dubas big time...we all know which team went on to win the Cup and which team is struggling to contend.

The first few years after Dubas took over, the team was so painful to watch...buttery soft and getting bullied physically all the time with no response...that inexperience dummy was trying to reinvent the NHL game with 100 years of proven NHL history to lean on....Babcock was right to be upset getting Barrie when the team needed a big and strong dman in the backend.

 

[Menzinger]

you were implying Marleau was the reason Marner and Mathews were asking for the moon to deflect criticism away from Dubas and onto Lou when your boy Dubas just literally said there asks jumped threw the roof once he signed Tavares to that cap hit

Actually, there's a pretty substantial gap between questioning just how positive an influence Marleau was on the core vs suggesting he was the only reason (or even primary reason) they signed for what they did.

 

[hotpaws]

Actually, there's a pretty substantial gap between questioning just how positive an influence Marleau was on the core vs suggesting he was the only reason (or even primary reason) they signed for what they did.

Well, makes one wonder how much Influence Marleau has on their views on contracts over those dinner table conversations.


I refreshed your memory for you , you were literally talking about his influence on there contracts .

 

[Menzinger]

Well, makes one wonder how much Influence Marleau has on their views on contracts over those dinner table conversations.


I refreshed your memory for you , you were literally talking about his influence on there contracts .

Suggesting he may have influenced things isn't the same thing as saying was the only or even primary reason things unfolded the way things happened. Glad I could clear that up

 

[Stephen]

My thoughts are that Mess probably shouldn't be altering quotes, and others probably shouldn't be extrapolating conclusions from a partial quote in a Toronto Sun report about an unreleased book. Doesn't change any of the facts about the contracts regardless.

Discrediting present Kyle to protect past Kyle will be an interesting piece of internet for sure.

 

[hotpaws]

Suggesting he may have influenced things isn't the same thing as saying was the only or even primary reason things unfolded the way things happened. Glad I could clear that up

why are ignoring that Dubas literally just said signing JT at that cap hit blew the top off the lid on their contract demands ?

so why are you wondering what influence Marleau had ?

 

[hotpaws]

Discrediting present Kyle to protect past Kyle will be an interesting piece of internet for sure.

or they'll just pretend that interview never happened regardless how many times they keep getting reminded

 

[Eternal Leaf]

I don't see Tavares as a mistake at the time he was signed. Yes it's a mistake now with COVID but not at the time.

If the core played up to their regular season potential, this core would have been very good and gone deep into the playoffs each year. The real issue for me is doubling down again and again on the same combination of stars.

It was and still is stupidity.

Your core showed you they're not good enough as a group when it matters, just accept it.

 

[Menzinger]

why are ignoring that Dubas literally just said signing JT at that cap hit blew the top off the lid on their contract demands ?

so why are you wondering what influence Marleau had ?

Because in real life things rarely happen for just one reason.

Lots of factors likely impacted those contracts Tavares seemingly a major part of that choice (something I never challenged in this thread, at least if you've read things properly). I'd also imagine their families, choice of agents, and other things impacted things as well.

 

[Stephen]

I don't see Tavares as a mistake at the time he was signed. Yes it's a mistake now with COVID but not at the time.

If the core played up to their regular season potential, this core would have been very good and gone deep into the playoffs each year. The real issue for me is doubling down again and again on the same combination of stars.

It was and still is stupidity.

Your core showed you they're not good enough as a group when it matters, just accept it.

John Tavares was basically our Marian Hossa style addition to our core of Toews, Kane and bonus Kane. That was the early days path to glory that was superficially laid out.

The problem is his contract forced us to pay Matthews and Marner as if they had already won the cup a la Toews and Kane, exacerbated by the fact that they don't seem to have the championship makeup of Toews and Kane.

 

[hotpaws]

Because in real life things rarely happen for just one reason.

Lots of factors likely impacted those contracts Tavares seemingly a major part of that choice (something I never challenged in this thread, at least if you've read things properly). I'd also imagine their families, choice of agents, and other things impacted things as well.

yeah the time of day , the weather , maybe they were constipated , all these things may have also had an impact on the contracts

but the problem is your buddy Dubas literally said there asks changed and went drastically higher after the Tavares signing so if Marleau had any influence it was to have them ask for a lower salary unlike how you were trying to blame him for their outrageous demands

 

[Mess]

or they'll just pretend that interview never happened regardless how many times they keep getting reminded

That won't even matter if the Internet crashes, because Dubas quote of his biggest regret will be published in a new upcoming BOOK and live forever in infamy .

In retrospect, there was one moment that defined Dubas' tenure in Toronto more than any other: signing John Tavares to a seven-year, $77 million ($11 million AAV) contract in 2018. Six years later, Dubas reflected on that moment in the upcoming book "The Franchise: The Business of Building Winning Teams," written by Craig Custance of The Athletic. Dubas said he doesn't regret signing Tavares to that deal, but he wished he handled some aspects of it differently.

“The biggest mistake I think I’ve made in my whole time here has been not taking care of the three incumbent contracts,” Dubas told Custance, per the Toronto Sun. “(William) Nylander was up, (Mitch) Marner and (Auston) Matthews could have been done on July 1 extensions.

“The thing I learned was once we signed John to the (AAV) we did, it lifted the lid on the entire ceiling."

Really, the problem wasn't signing Tavares to that deal, but the can of worms it opened. The problem with those deals isn't necessarily the value of them, but that they got unrestricted free agent money when they were only restricted free agents.

"The Franchise" releases on Oct. 15, and Dubas isn't the only NHL figure featured. The book also includes interviews with Lightning coach Jon Cooper, New York Islanders general manager Lou Lamoriello, Dallas Stars general manager Jim Nill and Washington Capitals owner Ted Leonsis.

PS. Author Craig Custance is going to get rich by selling his book exposing a Clueless Dubas to his financial advantage.

 

[notbias]

why are ignoring that Dubas literally just said signing JT at that cap hit blew the top off the lid on their contract demands ?

so why are you wondering what influence Marleau had ?

You also ignored this part

"What would the cap be, $90 million?" Belfry said in the book, via Hornby. "Kyle would never say it, but I will. You have a world shut down, it’s a flat cap for multiple years and you’re stuck holding the bag on a projection. You didn’t miscalculate, it’s an act of nature that beat you."

Do you believe Dubas now? The guy lots of you call a liar and snake, or Belfry?

If we are going by this article, we also have confirmed offer sheets raising prices.

Hornby adds that things became complicated between Nylander and Toronto during his contract negotiations when a team spoke about the possibility of offer-sheeting the forward, which then made his price shoot up.

So let's say Tavares lifted the cap on the team, that's why everyone is slightly overpaid, and then the offer sheets and pandemic ruined everything even more I guess.

I hope you never mention offer sheets not existing and you start defending that point when it is brought up.

I also hope you join a lot of us in saying the pandemic was a huge contributing factor to the contracts looking so bad.

Thanks for joining us in our fight against the idiots who think these things didn't affect the Leafs.

 

[hotpaws]

You also ignored this part



Do you believe Dubas now? The guy lots of you call a liar and snake, or Belfry?

If we are going by this article, we also have confirmed offer sheets raising prices.



So let's say Tavares lifted the cap on the team, that's why everyone is slightly overpaid, and then the offer sheets and pandemic ruined everything even more I guess.

I hope you never mention offer sheets not existing and you start defending that point when it is brought up.

I also hope you join a lot of us in saying the pandemic was a huge contributing factor to the contracts looking so bad.

Thanks for joining us in our fight against the idiots who think these things didn't affect the Leafs.

sorry about setting off the alarm bells but i do have to ask why i should give a f*** about one of Dumbasses buddies making excuses for him ?

 

[notbias]

sorry about setting off the alarm bells but i do have to ask why i should give a f*** about one of Dumbasses buddies making excuses for him ?

You are picking and choosing what you consider to be fact.

One person in the organization says "This was the issue" and another says "That wasn't the issue, this was the issue".

Who is believable in this situation?

The other statements about offer sheets being an issue (always gets disputed on here), and Covid being the main issue, are those facts as well?

On a side note, childish nicknames for people make you look like a "Dubas", just FYI.