Speculation: What was this Teams biggest mistake?

[hotpaws]

Shanahan sucks ass

His hiring of dubas shows this

But his complete inability to change the direction if the team during Dubas years and now with Treliving also shows this

Dubas should not have been our GM but Shanahan should never have been made president. His stupid wait and see cost us Mcdavid in 2015 draft when he tried to make the playoffs and his team failed horribly to do so

Shanahan + Dubas are the opposite of Sakic & MaCFarland from the Avs

how the f*** did Shanny cost us McDavid ? you can knock him all you like but we finished 4th worse that season with Edm one spot below us , we also if i remember correctly went into the last ball with the most combinations to win the lottery

also we had to be much much worse to drop to the bottom two and the following season when we finished dead last we actually have slightly more points than the McD draft year

as for changing directions , the move that should have been was to get JT to waive and not move one of the much younger much better core members who at the time didn't have a nmc , unfortunately i keep being told we have an obligation to Johnny to grossly overpay him for as long as he wants to play

 

[hamzarocks]

how the f*** did Shanny cost us McDavid ? you can knock him all you like but we finished 4th worse that season with Edm one spot below us , we also if i remember correctly went into the last ball with the most combinations to win the lottery

also we had to be much much worse to drop to the bottom two and the following season when we finished dead last we actually have slightly more points than the McD draft year

as for changing directions , the move that should have been was to get JT to waive and not move one of the much younger much better core members who at the time didn't have a nmc , unfortunately i keep being told we have an obligation to Johnny to grossly overpay him for as long as he wants to play

We held onto kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul to long

If Shanahan came in 2014 summer and sold those 3 then we get more than we did as Kessel is coming off a ppg season, phaneuf with a solid year and lupul I think had 50-60 pt production

We collapsed hard to 4th last in the league but the team after 40 games was in a wildcard spot. We dont have those three we might finish last and get Mcdavid or maybe Eichel instead of Marner

We should have been all in on adding assets and making the most of those 3 players value aftwr 2014 epic collapse in March to miss the playoffs

I wanted to retool last summer with a Nylander trade but we didnt do that.

We held marner again and are likely giving him 12M+

Tavares if he even waives his NMC needs 50% retention to be dealt for a 3rd. I cant imagine why any GM whose team wants to win in the playoffs would look to acquire John Tavares. Hes a loser. The other 3 guys are too but hes been one for longer

 

[francis246]

We held onto kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul to long

If Shanahan came in 2014 summer and sold those 3 then we get more than we did as Kessel is coming off a ppg season, phaneuf with a solid year and lupul I think had 50-60 pt production

We collapsed hard to 4th last in the league but the team after 40 games was in a wildcard spot. We dont have those three we might finish last and get Mcdavid or maybe Eichel instead of Marner

We should have been all in on adding assets and making the most of those 3 players value aftwr 2014 epic collapse in March to miss the playoffs

I wanted to retool last summer with a Nylander trade but we didnt do that.

We held marner again and are likely giving him 12M+

Tavares if he even waives his NMC needs 50% retention to be dealt for a 3rd. I cant imagine why any GM whose team wants to win in the playoffs would look to acquire John Tavares. Hes a loser. The other 3 guys are too but hes been one for longer

Phil Kessel and Dion Phanuef had full NMC. Kessel wasn’t open to waiving prior to Babcock signing and neither was Phanuef because his wife was an actor and wanted to be in a big Canadian market. Lupul also had an NMC and wanted to be a Maple Leaf. Lupul also had a bad back and no value. None of those three guys were waiving in 2014. One year removed from making the playoffs.

 

[hamzarocks]

Phil Kessel and Dion Phanuef had full NMC. Kessel wasn’t open to waiving prior to Babcock signing and neither was Phanuef because his wife was an actor and wanted to be in a big Canadian market. Lupul also had an NMC and wanted to be a Maple Leaf. Lupul also had a bad back and no value. None of those three guys were waiving in 2014. One year removed from making the playoffs.

Kessel was dealt 12 months later, Phaneuf 18 months later or so, and Lupul bad back wasnt established issue in 2014.

all 3 got paid and wanted to win, you tell them in 2015 we are rebuilding and will not be looking to compete, then they give you a list of teams they will waive too

The Sens maybe trade for Dion 1 year earlier and we get a better asset or two

Kessel was top 10 in scoring in 2014 and his value was higher than 2015. He would have waived if we announced an offical rebuild was happening and we didnt try to make playoff hopeful moves

 

[Macman]

Dubas paying Matthews and Marner huge salaries when they were restricted free agents and had little in the way of leverage. They now naturally expect raises on their followup contracts and Matthews has already received his.

 

[francis246]

Kessel was dealt 12 months later, Phaneuf 18 months later or so, and Lupul bad back wasnt established issue in 2014.

all 3 got paid and wanted to win, you tell them in 2015 we are rebuilding and will not be looking to compete, then they give you a list of teams they will waive too

The Sens maybe trade for Dion 1 year earlier and we get a better asset or two

Kessel was top 10 in scoring in 2014 and his value was higher than 2015. He would have waived if we announced an offical rebuild was happening and we didnt try to make playoff hopeful moves

Doubt it. Kessel loved Toronto. He didn’t even want to leave. He literally gave Toronto 1 option for trade and that was Pittsburgh. Also why would those guys agree to a trade when they signed extensions in October of 2013. Makes no sense that they would extend for 8 years and then be traded less than 8 months later. If they extended for 8 years they clearly wanted to be in Toronto and were not going to want to be traded in summer of 2014.

 

[hotpaws]

We held onto kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul to long

If Shanahan came in 2014 summer and sold those 3 then we get more than we did as Kessel is coming off a ppg season, phaneuf with a solid year and lupul I think had 50-60 pt production

We collapsed hard to 4th last in the league but the team after 40 games was in a wildcard spot. We dont have those three we might finish last and get Mcdavid or maybe Eichel instead of Marner

We should have been all in on adding assets and making the most of those 3 players value aftwr 2014 epic collapse in March to miss the playoffs

I wanted to retool last summer with a Nylander trade but we didn't do that.

We held marner again and are likely giving him 12M+

Tavares if he even waives his NMC needs 50% retention to be dealt for a 3rd. I cant imagine why any GM whose team wants to win in the playoffs would look to acquire John Tavares. Hes a loser. The other 3 guys are too but hes been one for longer

if this if that , the fact is there's a lotto for the top picks so all that finishing dead last gets your is a higher % of getting a top pick , it doesn't guarantee the top pick and Edm won the lotto from 3rd worse

and what sense does trading high quality young core player while we still have JT chewing up 11m of cap

this summer they JT is owed less than 1m and there's teams with cap space so i find it hard to believe a team like the Yotes wouldn't want to add him even if it was just for one year

and as far as JT waiving goes , i believe he would if he's told he's not going to be offered an extension since he'll be moving on one way or another

 

[BraveCanadian]

Marleau and Tavares signings are tied for me

Between the two of them they completely ruined the attitude and cap structure of the team, and neither one was worth even close to what they got as players, either.

 

[Superstar]

Nice to have yet another thinly disguised Marner contract thread.

Pure comedy gold.

 

[Stopper420]

Not making a major shake up after the team blew a 3-1 series lead to Montreal. That would have been the easiest path to the cup in decades.

 

[myleafs]

We held onto kessel, Phaneuf, Lupul to long

If Shanahan came in 2014 summer and sold those 3 then we get more than we did as Kessel is coming off a ppg season, phaneuf with a solid year and lupul I think had 50-60 pt production

We collapsed hard to 4th last in the league but the team after 40 games was in a wildcard spot. We dont have those three we might finish last and get Mcdavid or maybe Eichel instead of Marner

We should have been all in on adding assets and making the most of those 3 players value aftwr 2014 epic collapse in March to miss the playoffs

I wanted to retool last summer with a Nylander trade but we didnt do that.

We held marner again and are likely giving him 12M+

Tavares if he even waives his NMC needs 50% retention to be dealt for a 3rd. I cant imagine why any GM whose team wants to win in the playoffs would look to acquire John Tavares. Hes a loser. The other 3 guys are too but hes been one for longer

As hotpaws stated in his previous post, the leafs had the best shot at Mcdavid so the bolded is misguided.....from tsn at that time....."the #leafs had the highest chance of getting McDavid heading to last ball:" Finishing last would not have made our chances any higher at that point. Im not a fan of Shanny but not getting Mcdavid was not on him.

 

[myleafs]

Not making a major shake up after the team blew a 3-1 series lead to Montreal. That would have been the easiest path to the cup in decades.

I may have said this before but I would have lost the house if I had bet on what I thought was going to happen. I was stone cold absolutely sure that the leafs were gonna steamroll them, especially after the way their previous 10 meetings went. It was the perfect storm layup for the leafs to at least make it to the semis. That loss stung and still does. I would go as far as to say it was the beginning of my losing that loving feeling for our core group.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I haven't read through the entire thread butdid anyone say, letting go Lou for Dubas? I know Lou has some old school ticks, like no facial hair and no number above 40 , strange yes but would he have caved like Dubas did on the big 3 contracts? Would he have done the Kadri trade? My perception of the situation might be wrong, I feel like Dubas was always dealing from a self imposed position of disadvantage and Lou always looked in control. Would a stronger more hard ass personality as GM have changed anything?

Lou signed Engvall for seven years and publicly whined that he was forced to give Bo Horvat his deal. Is he really a master negotiator right now?

I beg to differ,

Patty Marleau was a great mentor and beloved by Marner and Matthews and almost essentially adopted into the Marleau Family.

When Lou Lam brought Patty in to help the young players and set the example he did his job.

In 2017-18 playoffs Marleau almost helped the Leafs win a tough 7 game 1st round series against Boston.



He lead the Leafs in goals with 4 (which was what Marner & Matthews & Nylander combined scored)



After losing the 1st 2 games Marleau rallied the Leafs with 2 goals in game #3 giving the Leafs a win and avoiding potential series sweep after losing game #4.



In game #7 Patty Marleau set the stage for a potential Leafs series win by scoring the first 2 goals for the Leafs where Leafs were up 4-3 heading into the 3rd period.



I don't think you could expect much more than that in terms of making an impact.

To call the Leafs leading playoff goal scorer a mistake to help a young team try and win a playoff round is misdirected, IMO

Giving Marleau a stupid contract and having him mentor our young players to avoid contact and get all the money they can was a stroke of genius.

and as far as JT waiving goes , i believe he would if he's told he's not going to be offered an extension since he'll be moving on one way or another

He's got no incentive to waive, and the Leafs have no incentive to decide his future right now since there's a possibility they can bring him back for a short-term deal @ $2-3m.

He may also retire. Highly unlikely a playoff team can fit him in, so why would he waive to finish his career with a non-playoff team?

 

[hamzarocks]

As hotpaws stated in his previous post, the leafs had the best shot at Mcdavid so the bolded is misguided.....from tsn at that time....."the #leafs had the highest chance of getting McDavid heading to last ball:" Finishing last would not have made our chances any higher at that point. Im not a fan of Shanny but not getting Mcdavid was not on him.

Missing out on Mcdavid cost us to get spot 4

We were lucky the coyotes went strome. If we had drafted strome 4OA wed be screwed for a while.

The path taken should have been a full scape rebuild where the previous 3 core guys were sold for picks and prospects and we tanked heavy for next 2-3 years.

Eichel on the team in 2016 when were tanking and getting Matthews would give us Matthews + Eichel which would have been best center duo in the league with pre injury eichel

We would also have the assets from kessel+lupul+phaneuf deal coming in around 2017ish.

Shanahan was complacent and watched the leafs 2014 team go out and choke and collapse in 2015 killing our guys values further and us getting little return

He did the same last summer and this year ith us running it back with the same core extended rather than a retool ir maj9r core shakeup

 

[hotpaws]

He's got no incentive to waive, and the Leafs have no incentive to decide his future right now since there's a possibility they can bring him back for a short-term deal @ $2-3m.

He may also retire. Highly unlikely a playoff team can fit him in, so why would he waive to finish his career with a non-playoff team?

Tavares only cares about Tavares so while you may think he has no incentive to waive the truth is there is a financial one , if he waives to a team like Utah who have cap and a ton of kids coming up he may be able to sign a 3/4 yr deal for 6-7-8m per .

 

[keonsbitterness]

Tavares only cares about Tavares so while you may think he has no incentive to waive the truth is there is a financial one , if he waives to a team like Utah who have cap and a ton of kids coming up he may be able to sign a 3/4 yr deal for 6-7-8m per .

I doubt anyone will re-sign Tavares for that much.

 

[hotpaws]

I doubt anyone will re-sign Tavares for that much.

he might have got an extension this summer in that neighborhood if he waived

 

[francis246]

Missing out on Mcdavid cost us to get spot 4

We were lucky the coyotes went strome. If we had drafted strome 4OA wed be screwed for a while.

The path taken should have been a full scape rebuild where the previous 3 core guys were sold for picks and prospects and we tanked heavy for next 2-3 years.

Eichel on the team in 2016 when were tanking and getting Matthews would give us Matthews + Eichel which would have been best center duo in the league with pre injury eichel

We would also have the assets from kessel+lupul+phaneuf deal coming in around 2017ish.

Shanahan was complacent and watched the leafs 2014 team go out and choke and collapse in 2015 killing our guys values further and us getting little return

He did the same last summer and this year ith us running it back with the same core extended rather than a retool ir maj9r core shakeup

Again completely disagree. If the yotes went Marner 3. We probably trade back and get Rantanen, Werenski or Provorov on top of Konecny and probably end up more balanced anyways. Or they just hold the pick and end up taking Hanifin or Provorov like Babcock wanted anyways.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at the first round of the 2015 draft was not an issue for the leafs. As I’ve said many times and others said, the leafs ended up having the best odds to get McDavid anyways after the first 3 balls. So the January tank was still successful.

And again factually incorrect, you can’t move guys with full NMC’s who don’t want to be moved. The leafs made the playoffs the year before and were not expecting to be bad in 2014/2015.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

Dude. That poster needs to stay under his bridge. lol.

He usually does when he gets proven wrong. It's always been "debunked" according to him until proven otherwise.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Hiring Kyle Dubas over keeping Lou.

Sure Lou made some mistakes,the Zaitsev and Marleau contracts come to mind.

And Kyle did some good things, signing Tavares and trading for Muzzin come to mind.

But Lou would not have f***ed around with Nylander first extension like Dubas did and allow 700K to cause Nylander to sit until almost literally the last minute.

Lou would not have allowed Marner to make 10.9 million, Lou probably gets Marner done a year prior for between 9-9.5, this is the same man that got Rielly and Kadri done for a combined 9.5

IF Lou did give Matthews 11.5 he would t have gotten an 8 year deal, under Lou, or even under Treliving but without Dubas Matthews would be making 11.5 now in all likelihood.

Lou would not have waived both Mcbackup, AND pickard so that he could gift-wrap the job to a 25 year old minor leaguer that he's friends with.

Lou would not have allowed there to be an issue at backup goalie for 18 months.

Lou would not have traded Kadri for such a shit return.

Lou probably wouldn't have hired Keefe to begin with, and even if he did he wouldn't have put up with Keefe bullshit that idiot would have been gone after blowing that 3-1 series lead to Montreal.

Lou was a REAL GM letting him go was the teams biggest mistake.

Thankfully we have an experienced GM in Treliving now.

Lilly's contract aside Treliving is doing a good job.

And even with Lilly, as much as I HATE that contract, and I do, I'm unbelievably sick of Lilly, even that contract is only 2 years.

 

[notbias]

Hiring Kyle Dubas over keeping Lou.

Sure Lou made some mistakes,the Zaitsev and Marleau contracts come to mind.

And Kyle did some good things, signing Tavares and trading for Muzzin come to mind.

But Lou would not have f***ed around with Nylander first extension like Dubas did and allow 700K to cause Nylander to sit until almost literally the last minute.

Lou would not have allowed Marner to make 10.9 million, Lou probably gets Marner done a year prior for between 9-9.5, this is the same man that got Rielly and Kadri done for a combined 9.5

IF Lou did give Matthews 11.5 he would t have gotten an 8 year deal, under Lou, or even under Treliving but without Dubas Matthews would be making 11.5 now in all likelihood.

Lou would not have waived both Mcbackup, AND pickard so that he could gift-wrap the job to a 25 year old minor leaguer that he's friends with.

Lou would not have allowed there to be an issue at backup goalie for 18 months.

Lou would not have traded Kadri for such a shit return.

Lou probably wouldn't have hired Keefe to begin with, and even if he did he wouldn't have put up with Keefe bullshit that idiot would have been gone after blowing that 3-1 series lead to Montreal.

Lou was a REAL GM letting him go was the teams biggest mistake.

Thankfully we have an experienced GM in Treliving now.

Lilly's contract aside Treliving is doing a good job.

And even with Lilly, as much as I HATE that contract, and I do, I'm unbelievably sick of Lilly, even that contract is only 2 years.

Lou just overpaid Horvat and said he knew he did... Why do people always pretend Lou is a tough negotiator?

Treliving has given the worst contract out of every GM you've mentioned and has given out tons of overpayments for 4th liners and fringe NHL players, not to mention Matthews and Nylander.

 

[hamzarocks]

Again completely disagree. If the yotes went Marner 3. We probably trade back and get Rantanen, Werenski or Provorov on top of Konecny and probably end up more balanced anyways. Or they just hold the pick and end up taking Hanifin or Provorov like Babcock wanted anyways.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at the first round of the 2015 draft was not an issue for the leafs. As I’ve said many times and others said, the leafs ended up having the best odds to get McDavid anyways after the first 3 balls. So the January tank was still successful.

And again factually incorrect, you can’t move guys with full NMC’s who don’t want to be moved. The leafs made the playoffs the year before and were not expecting to be bad in 2014/2015.

The core would have moved if we asked them to waive their NMC, every other team is able to move out players when entering a rebuild if they are still good players. Players dont want to stay in a rebuilding envirnoment in their primish years

Kessel literally did waive his NMC in 2015 summer and from what I recall he didnt just give us the pens, but he had the panthers and another team I'm forgetting he was willing to waive to

The 2015 team contending was such a non sensical decision its hard to believe we actually tried to be a playoff team after half a decade of routine epic collapses.

That was twice under shanahan he stayed status quo and put off a tough decision to avoid potential for failure/being critiques at the cost of a proper direction and potential for ling term rewards.

The 2010, 2011, 2012 and 2014 Kessel + Phaneuf led core leafs choked epicly in the reg season and failed

2013 we failed in the playoffs in R1 due to a shortened year otherwise likely would have missed the playoffs as well that year.

Shanahan was brought in to make tough decisions, be an advanced thinker and have foresight on direction we needed to go. He failed to do any of that and his 10 year term has been incredibly disapointing starting from 2015 year when he failed to he proactive.

Shanahan + Nonis went for a prayer in 2015 just like Shanahan and Treliving are going for a prayer in 2025.

A decade has paased and Shanahans incompetences hasn't changed. Hes willing to run the status quo and hope for the extremely improbable occurring.

This current core > kessel era core so they arent a risk to miss playoffs, but they are a guaranteed R1 exit.

Shanahan is sticking with this b/c its easier than making tough moves and potentially facing backlash initally for a trade (marner or nylander move) which later helps build up the team to be more complete and win (panthers were mocked initially for huberdeau + weegar + 1st for tkachuk)

2015 we missed out on starting the rebuild right by recoupung assets for bozak + lupul + kessel + phaneuf at their peak values.

2018 - 2020 we held onto own rentals in bozak, jvr, komorav, Gardiner, Andersen, Hyman and lost out on numerous quality picks and prospect chances to build up our depth pool

Management incompetence has been there for a decade. The approach to roster building with Shanahan/Lou/bab, Shanahan/dubas/keefe, Shanahan/Treliving/Berube soon us unlike anyother contending team

Tampa, Avs, Canes, Pens/Caps at their peak etc didnt operate in this manner

We are dysfunctional top to bottom starting from MLSE who doesnt want to change things towards building a winner at cost of potential failure and mid period retool/rebuild

 

[Menzinger]

I beg to differ,

Patty Marleau was a great mentor and beloved by Marner and Matthews and almost essentially adopted into the Marleau Family.

When Lou Lam brought Patty in to help the young players and set the example he did his job.

In 2017-18 playoffs Marleau almost helped the Leafs win a tough 7 game 1st round series against Boston.

View attachment 897001

He lead the Leafs in goals with 4 (which was what Marner & Matthews & Nylander combined scored)

View attachment 897000

After losing the 1st 2 games Marleau rallied the Leafs with 2 goals in game #3 giving the Leafs a win and avoiding potential series sweep after losing game #4.

View attachment 897011

In game #7 Patty Marleau set the stage for a potential Leafs series win by scoring the first 2 goals for the Leafs where Leafs were up 4-3 heading into the 3rd period.

View attachment 897005

I don't think you could expect much more than that in terms of making an impact.

To call the Leafs leading playoff goal scorer a mistake to help a young team try and win a playoff round is misdirected, IMO

Well, makes one wonder how much Influence Marleau has on their views on contracts over those dinner table conversations.

Marleau was set up well for retirement getting 18+ mil as a 37 year old while other older vets opted to sign for league minimum deals.

 

[Da Cool Rula]

RookieGM signing Matthews, Marner maybe a year too late. Then giving them basically no movement clauses was big mistake for me.

Ballard era vs Shanahan era?

 

[Da Cool Rula]

Again completely disagree. If the yotes went Marner 3. We probably trade back and get Rantanen, Werenski or Provorov on top of Konecny and probably end up more balanced anyways. Or they just hold the pick and end up taking Hanifin or Provorov like Babcock wanted anyways.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at the first round of the 2015 draft was not an issue for the leafs. As I’ve said many times and others said, the leafs ended up having the best odds to get McDavid anyways after the first 3 balls. So the January tank was still successful.

And again factually incorrect, you can’t move guys with full NMC’s who don’t want to be moved. The leafs made the playoffs the year before and were not expecting to be bad in 2014/2015.

I'm Pretty sure they were juggling between Marner & Hanifin when their pick came up. So Im ng they take Hanifin at 4 if Yotes go with Marner. But who knows I've heard some say they wanted Strome.