OT: What Really Saddens Me about the Karlsson Trade

[BonkTastic]

I need everyone who thinks that the Sens got decent value in this trade to forward me their names and residential information so I can compile that list of people into a real estate database and be first in line when they put their houses up for sale.

If they think that this deal is good value and apply that logic when they are ready to sell, and I get first dibs at those properties, then I've just found my retirement nest egg.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

I need everyone who thinks that the Sens got decent value in this trade to forward me their names and residential information so I can compile that list of people into a real estate database and be first in line when they put their houses up for sale.

If they think that this deal is good value and apply that logic when they are ready to sell, and I get first dibs at those properties, then I've just found my retirement nest egg.

The thing is, all those people are lying.

No one in their right mind can see the Karlsson trade as anything but terrible.

 

[swiftwin]

I need everyone who thinks that the Sens got decent value in this trade to forward me their names and residential information so I can compile that list of people into a real estate database and be first in line when they put their houses up for sale.

If they think that this deal is good value and apply that logic when they are ready to sell, and I get first dibs at those properties, then I've just found my retirement nest egg.

It wasn't good value, but under the circumstances enforced by Melnyk, it was the best they could do. If you want to continue on the real estate analogy, this is like those anecdotes ultra-cheap houses scooped up in the 2008 crisis. Except instead of the economy crashing forcing the owner to sell for almost nothing, it's Melnyk's purse strings forcing Dorion to sell at whatever price anyone else is willing to pay. You think those home owners wanted to give up their houses for next to nothing in 2008? Ofcourse not! The circumstances are obviously hugely important. You can't give the assets in this trade intrinsic value like you would in a video game.

 

[swiftwin]

heres your sources. and since you offered i would like to see your posts on karlsson a decade a go, would be interesting.

Looks like hfboards purged everything from 2009, but I found a reference to that thread, including someone pulling out a quote of one of the funnier attacks against me:
https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/71038433/

 

[BonkTastic]

The thing is, all those people are lying.

No one in their right mind can see the Karlsson trade as anything but terrible.

I work with a guy who, when the news that we had hired Peter MacTavish broke, said something like "Oh man, that's a great hire! What a great move!"

Now... maybe it was a great move. Maybe it wasn't. The thing is, I doubt anyone here can really have an opinion, considering MacTavish is, at best, an unknown quality as an NHL executive. There's no real way to credibly say it's great, or terrible, considering we have no clue and no evidence as to how he will pan out as a hockey guy.

The thing is - the guy at my office who said that was SURE that it was a great move, without even knowing who MacTavish is. He was just like "SENS DID A THING, THEREFORE IT'S GREAT, BECAUSE I'M A SENS FAN AND THAT'S HOW YOU FAN"... there are quite a few fans out there like that. Anything that their team does is great, and anything they don't do is also great that they didn't do it. All the players their team acquires are amazing, and everyone that is traded away are bums.

This guy at my office, he's one of those guys. Every fanbase has those guys. And the people who think that the Karlsson deal was "fair" or "a good deal", or anything other than dogsh**? They are those guys. I'm not so naive to think that my own fanbase doesn't have a large number of those fans. We obviously do, and they are far larger represented in the wild than on the internet.

Fandom that blinds fans from seeing things as they are. Tale as old as time.

 

[coladin]

I work with a guy who, when the news that we had hired Peter MacTavish, said something like "Oh man, that's a great hire! What a great move!"

Now... maybe it was a great move. Maybe it wasn't. The thing is, I doubt anyone here can really have an opinion, considering MacTavish is, at best, an unknown quality as an NHL executive. There's no real way to credibly say it's great, or terrible, considering we have no clue and no evidence as to how he will pan out as a hockey guy.

The thing is - the guy at my office who said that was SURE that it was a great move, without even knowing who MacTavish is. He was just like "SENS DID A THING, THEREFORE IT'S GREAT, BECAUSE I'M A SENS FAN AND THAT'S HOW YOU FAN"... there are quite a few fans out there like that. Anything that their team does is great, and anything they don't do is also great that they didn't do it. All the players their team acquires are amazing, and everyone that is traded away are bums.

This guy at my office, he's one of those guys. Every fanbase has those guys. And the people who think that the Karlsson deal was "fair" or "a good deal", or anything other than dogsh**? They are those guys. I'm not so naive to think that my own fanbase has a large number of those fans. We obviously do, and they are far larger represented in the wild than on the internet.

Fandom that blinds fans from seeing things as they are. Tale as old as time.

It is also a personality trait of people which factors in , not only hockey stuff, but life stuff in general.

Or he thought it was Craig MacTavish.

 

[L'Aveuglette]

I work with a guy who, when the news that we had hired Peter MacTavish, said something like "Oh man, that's a great hire! What a great move!"

Now... maybe it was a great move. Maybe it wasn't. The thing is, I doubt anyone here can really have an opinion, considering MacTavish is, at best, an unknown quality as an NHL executive. There's no real way to credibly say it's great, or terrible, considering we have no clue and no evidence as to how he will pan out as a hockey guy.

The thing is - the guy at my office who said that was SURE that it was a great move, without even knowing who MacTavish is. He was just like "SENS DID A THING, THEREFORE IT'S GREAT, BECAUSE I'M A SENS FAN AND THAT'S HOW YOU FAN"... there are quite a few fans out there like that. Anything that their team does is great, and anything they don't do is also great that they didn't do it. All the players their team acquires are amazing, and everyone that is traded away are bums.

This guy at my office, he's one of those guys. Every fanbase has those guys. And the people who think that the Karlsson deal was "fair" or "a good deal", or anything other than dogsh**? They are those guys. I'm not so naive to think that my own fanbase has a large number of those fans. We obviously do, and they are far larger represented in the wild than on the internet.

Fandom that blinds fans from seeing things as they are. Tale as old as time.

Good points here. I agree there are a lot of these fans in Sensland.

Although what I gather from this is that while they may not be lying to me/you, they are definitely lying to themselves.

 

[JD1]

And what if they top out as 2nd-3rd liners?

then we have 4 roster players plus 2 draft picks and hopefully one of them lands?

 

[swiftwin]

Fandom that blinds fans from seeing things as they are. Tale as old as time.

I'd say the same thing applies in the opposite direction. As if the team is pure and 100% destined for greatness and that the only thing preventing it from happening is those dastardly "suit types" that keep ruining the team. Every trade and signing is a bad one. Make a trade to win now? "Why? we need to rebuild!" Make a trade to rebuild? "Why? Our team is amazing!". Many posters around here fall under this category and are unable to look at things pragmatically. It's a coping mechanism so that we inevitably don't win the cup (like 29 other teams), they'll have something to point to.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I work with a guy who, when the news that we had hired Peter MacTavish broke, said something like "Oh man, that's a great hire! What a great move!"

Now... maybe it was a great move. Maybe it wasn't. The thing is, I doubt anyone here can really have an opinion, considering MacTavish is, at best, an unknown quality as an NHL executive. There's no real way to credibly say it's great, or terrible, considering we have no clue and no evidence as to how he will pan out as a hockey guy.

The thing is - the guy at my office who said that was SURE that it was a great move, without even knowing who MacTavish is. He was just like "SENS DID A THING, THEREFORE IT'S GREAT, BECAUSE I'M A SENS FAN AND THAT'S HOW YOU FAN"... there are quite a few fans out there like that. Anything that their team does is great, and anything they don't do is also great that they didn't do it. All the players their team acquires are amazing, and everyone that is traded away are bums.

This guy at my office, he's one of those guys. Every fanbase has those guys. And the people who think that the Karlsson deal was "fair" or "a good deal", or anything other than dogsh**? They are those guys. I'm not so naive to think that my own fanbase doesn't have a large number of those fans. We obviously do, and they are far larger represented in the wild than on the internet.

Fandom that blinds fans from seeing things as they are. Tale as old as time.

It's also these fans who are the most aggressive in calling others fake fans

 

[NyQuil]

I work with a guy who, when the news that we had hired Peter MacTavish broke, said something like "Oh man, that's a great hire! What a great move!"

Now... maybe it was a great move. Maybe it wasn't. The thing is, I doubt anyone here can really have an opinion, considering MacTavish is, at best, an unknown quality as an NHL executive. There's no real way to credibly say it's great, or terrible, considering we have no clue and no evidence as to how he will pan out as a hockey guy.

The thing is - the guy at my office who said that was SURE that it was a great move, without even knowing who MacTavish is. He was just like "SENS DID A THING, THEREFORE IT'S GREAT, BECAUSE I'M A SENS FAN AND THAT'S HOW YOU FAN"... there are quite a few fans out there like that. Anything that their team does is great, and anything they don't do is also great that they didn't do it. All the players their team acquires are amazing, and everyone that is traded away are bums.

This guy at my office, he's one of those guys. Every fanbase has those guys. And the people who think that the Karlsson deal was "fair" or "a good deal", or anything other than dogsh**? They are those guys. I'm not so naive to think that my own fanbase doesn't have a large number of those fans. We obviously do, and they are far larger represented in the wild than on the internet.

Fandom that blinds fans from seeing things as they are. Tale as old as time.

They're called Leaf fans.

 

[BonkTastic]

Or he thought it was Craig MacTavish.

Haha, he actually said "I thought it was Craig MacTavish for a second, glad we got the good one!", or something to that effect, haha. I'm paraphrasing, but that was the jist of it.

 

[BonkTastic]

I'd say the same thing applies in the opposite direction. As if the team is pure and 100% destined for greatness and that the only thing preventing it from happening is those dastardly "suit types" that keep ruining the team. Every trade and signing is a bad one. Make a trade to win now? "Why? we need to rebuild!" Make a trade to rebuild? "Why? Our team is amazing!". Many posters around here fall under this category and are unable to look at things pragmatically. It's a coping mechanism so that we inevitably don't win the cup (like 29 other teams), they'll have something to point to.

Eh, those people definitely exist, no doubt, but the ratio between the faulty optimists and the faulty pessimists weighs heavily in favour of the optimists.

That's just sports, though. That's not unique to our team, or even this sport in particular.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I'd say the same thing applies in the opposite direction. As if the team is pure and 100% destined for greatness and that the only thing preventing it from happening is those dastardly "suit types" that keep ruining the team. Every trade and signing is a bad one. Make a trade to win now? "Why? we need to rebuild!" Make a trade to rebuild? "Why? Our team is amazing!". Many posters around here fall under this category and are unable to look at things pragmatically. It's a coping mechanism so that we inevitably don't win the cup (like 29 other teams), they'll have something to point to.

I'd just be happy if the team is run with honesty, integrity and with any semblance of skill.

Instead we have a GM who trades our lotto pick (in a draft with a McDavid level talent) for a marginal upgrade and then starts a rebuild 2 months later.

(While lying to everyone until the last second so that people don't cancel season tickets.)

 

[JD1]

It wasn't good value, but under the circumstances enforced by Melnyk, it was the best they could do. If you want to continue on the real estate analogy, this is like those anecdotes ultra-cheap houses scooped up in the 2008 crisis. Except instead of the economy crashing forcing the owner to sell for almost nothing, it's Melnyk's purse strings forcing Dorion to sell at whatever price anyone else is willing to pay. You think those home owners wanted to give up their houses for next to nothing in 2008? Ofcourse not! The circumstances are obviously hugely important. You can't give the assets in this trade intrinsic value like you would in a video game.

I think some of the circumstances were clearly forced by Karlsson. We aren't among the richest franchises and if we offered well north of 80 million which at this point is being widely reported then Karlsson created some of those circumstances

 

[The don godfather]

The projections for these players are bottom half of the roster fodder.

The odds of any of them being impact players is extremely low.

AND WE JUST TRADED A GENERATIONAL DMAN IN HIS PRIME FOR THESE MEDIOCRE PIECES.

Time will tell if these players are mediocre but one year of Karlsson for 6 pieces with young talent is a deal I would do anytime of the week. Dorion couldn't wait any longer his value was diminishing each day.

 

[Stylizer1]

then we have 4 roster players plus 2 draft picks and hopefully one of them lands?

Then it's the Murray era all over again except a superstar.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I work with a guy who, when the news that we had hired Peter MacTavish broke, said something like "Oh man, that's a great hire! What a great move!"

Now... maybe it was a great move. Maybe it wasn't. The thing is, I doubt anyone here can really have an opinion, considering MacTavish is, at best, an unknown quality as an NHL executive. There's no real way to credibly say it's great, or terrible, considering we have no clue and no evidence as to how he will pan out as a hockey guy.

The thing is - the guy at my office who said that was SURE that it was a great move, without even knowing who MacTavish is. He was just like "SENS DID A THING, THEREFORE IT'S GREAT, BECAUSE I'M A SENS FAN AND THAT'S HOW YOU FAN"... there are quite a few fans out there like that. Anything that their team does is great, and anything they don't do is also great that they didn't do it. All the players their team acquires are amazing, and everyone that is traded away are bums.

This guy at my office, he's one of those guys. Every fanbase has those guys. And the people who think that the Karlsson deal was "fair" or "a good deal", or anything other than dogsh**? They are those guys. I'm not so naive to think that my own fanbase doesn't have a large number of those fans. We obviously do, and they are far larger represented in the wild than on the internet.

Fandom that blinds fans from seeing things as they are. Tale as old as time.

Shane Prince thinks he's a good hire.. not sure how he'd know

 

[coladin]

Shane Prince thinks he's a good hire.. not sure how he'd know

I think I read somewhere that he was involved in the agent side? CAA or something?

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

I think I read somewhere that he was involved in the agent side? CAA or something?

He has been working as a recruiter and agent for CAA Hockey—a large agency that is led by Pat Brisson and J.P. Barry.
Hockey | CAA
Looks like Shane Prince is a client 0f CAA as is Duchene.., Prince likely had direct involvement with him.

“Peter will be an excellent hire for the Senators,” said Barry in a statement to this newspaper. “He brings so many important elements to this position. He’s always extremely prepared and thorough.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

I'd say the same thing applies in the opposite direction. As if the team is pure and 100% destined for greatness and that the only thing preventing it from happening is those dastardly "suit types" that keep ruining the team. Every trade and signing is a bad one. Make a trade to win now? "Why? we need to rebuild!" Make a trade to rebuild? "Why? Our team is amazing!". Many posters around here fall under this category and are unable to look at things pragmatically. It's a coping mechanism so that we inevitably don't win the cup (like 29 other teams), they'll have something to point to.

What's crazy is that Dorion trading Karlsson for Chris Tierny may not even be his worst move.

Because what it's shaping up like is Duchene walking in FA and Colorado drafting American McDavid with our pick.

Unbelievable you'll support him no matter what lol

 

[Micklebot]

I think some of the circumstances were clearly forced by Karlsson. We aren't among the richest franchises and if we offered well north of 80 million which at this point is being widely reported then Karlsson created some of those circumstances

Hard to know that because we don't have the contract structure.

We don't know if it was front loaded, back loaded, bonus laden, included a NTC or NMC, we just have that it was believed to be 8 years at 11 mil. The truth is, you can structure a contract in a way that it really isn't in good faith,

For example, if the potential lockout years are maxed out (I believe for an 11 mil per year deal, the max a given year could be in real dollars would be 22 mil) and no bonus is included, the contract is far less inciting as that 8 year 88 mil deal could become a 7 year 66 mil deal if the lockout takes out that year. Alternatively, if it didn't include a ntc or had a weak ntc, it would be hard to view it as good faith offer.

Obviously, you can argue Karlsson created some of the circumstances because he didn't sign a deal that was offered, but we don't have the full details to know if it was reasonable for him to refuse or not, if the deal was fair or just done for optics. We just don't have the facts

 

[Ray Kinsella]

so if that's the case, and not really that I disagree, but what was EK doing at a podium last week near tears saying he never thought it would come to this

to use your words he didn't leave because it's a tire fire. seems he wanted to stay. actually kinda seems like Turris did too.

My guess would be because of the teamates, the ties they built with the city, the community, the fans, the friends they mades, etc. That's exactly what Karlsson was talking about. I feel he was willing to take part in that rebuild (I could be wrong, but that's what feel). Ottawa was a second home to EK (after his home in Sweden), Same deal with Alfie, and so on. If you lose a job for whatever reason, even if you don't like management, it can still hurt to leave all those people behind and it doesn't mean you didn't enjoy your job.

 

[SAK11]

What's crazy is that Dorion trading Karlsson for Chris Tierny may not even be his worst move.

Because what it's shaping up like is Duchene walking in FA and Colorado drafting American McDavid with our pick.

Unbelievable you'll support him no matter what lol

The odds are very much against this happening, actually.

#1. Duchene likely doesn't make it to free agency, as he'll probably either be re-signed, or traded by the deadline.
#2. Colorado has, at best, around an 18.5% of the 1st overall pick.
#3. Hughes will have a tough time getting to the level of McDavid.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

The odds are very much against this happening, actually.

#1. Duchene likely doesn't make it to free agency, as he'll probably either be re-signed, or traded by the deadline.
#2. Colorado has, at best, around an 18.5% of the 1st overall pick.
#3. Hughes will have a tough time getting to the level of McDavid.

Yea that's just the worst case scenario which is also a very possible scenario.

What most likely is that Duchene gets traded at the deadline and Avs pick up a franschise player in the 2 to 4 spot.

And in that case, it's still one of the worst trades of all time.