What is the vision for our D corps?

[michaelsaas]

Like or dislike the moves made this summer, I think everyone would agree there is a clear vision in place for our forward group. Fast, with a more defensively responsible bottom six and a bit more grit.

Aside from speed, I don't know the plan for the D corps. Byrum seems redundant given Power and Dahlin. Admittedly I don't pay close attentions to the makeup of other teams so maybe multiple offensive D men on a line are a trend?

I am sincerely trying to get a sense of it. I am working under the presumption that there is a plan/vision, so I am hoping for responses that come from that place rather than snarky jabs to further reinforce one's predispositions towards management. But it is a free forum so have at it either way

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[Zman5778]

I may not agree with the vision, but I do think I see it:

I think the vision is to have a good-skating, good-passing defense whose strength is positioning and transitioning the puck to forwards. It kind of reminds me a bit of the Penguins back-to-back Cup teams where they didn't have a physical defense, but who cares if the opposition never has the puck for extended periods.

Then tack on a couple of stouter D-men that can PK well and not be complete doofuses (doofi?) 5v5.

 

[Dubi Doo]

Power-Dahlin
All situations top pairing. Power plays the Neidermayer to the Pronger role. Move the puck well, use his great skating to get out of jams, and focus on reeling in his D game. Dahlin can do his thing, and Power's skating should cover well for him. Not ideal, but it could definitely work.

Byram-Clifton
Things get more iffy here. Clifton looks the part of a good #5. Byram needs to be able to carry a second pairing for me to have a ton of confidence in this second pairing. On the plus side, Ruff can tell Clifton to be our modern day Lydman. Play physical (especially around the net), use his skating to cover for Byram, and focus more on the defensive side of things. The hand grenade moments can be tolerated if he can fulfil his other duties at a high degree (Lydman-esque). Byram gets to roam more freely and be the man on his pair.

Sammy-Joki
Sammy should play to Joki's weaknesses pretty well. Sammy will also get a lot of mins SH, and will likely be the firstbplayer going up the ranks if an injury occurs to the top-4.

Risky business running this D core, but it can work.

 

[DJN21]

Don't spend big on defense in free agency and hope some combo of komarov, novikov, kleber, strbak develop into the type of dman we need one at a time while being cost controlled and cheap actually kinda makes some sense considering we aren't cup contenders yet...

Idk that's my optimistic point of view. Byram is a funny case because if he does well he prices himself out for us and becomes a luxury we cant afford. If he does terrible it becomes a bad trade. If he's just okay do we keep him around for cheaper or just cut ties on a busted trade? Fwiw I think he's gonna have a great year health willing...

 

[Satanphonehome]

The vision is pretty clearly a fastbreak back-end that exits the zone quickly, moves the puck up-ice quickly and adds to the attack.

There seems to be an assumption among Sabres fans that:
a) you can have too many players who are good at the above, and
b) two guys who are good at the above can't play together, and
c) if you're good at the above, you automatically are a disaster at defending in your zone.

I don't agree with any of the above.

For me the success or failure comes down to how much better can Owen Power and Bowen Byram get at defending?

Each has the feet and the IQ but has only played about 160 NHL games. I expect that as their experience grows, each will follow the same path Dahlin has in terms of growing defensively.

As far as I'm concerned, this position is the team's strength.

 

[Der Jaeger]

Part of the reason I wanted Beniers over Power was what I thought of Power. For me, the Niedermayer (or even Bouwmeester) comparisons are spot on. Elite tools, but not quite the #1 defenseman that you'd want. For that reason, I really like a Power-Dahlin combo or even a Power-Byrum combo.

That's taking nothing away from Power. His ability to retrieve the puck and then quickly transition it back towards to other team's zone is world class, and his skating will allow him to play a long time. But I don't see him as the true #1 D which drives a team's back end.

I think there's too much pressure on Samuelsson as the "cover" D. I'd much rather see him on a 3rd pair with another partner who can help shut opponents down.

So here's my shell for the team:

Top pair: O-Zone time, all purpose, specializing in possession and transition
Power - Dahlin

2nd pair: all purpose, specializing in possession and transition
Byrum - xxx

3rd pair: D-zone, shutdown
Samuelsson - Clifton

Spares: Bryson (defensive zone type), Gilbert (defensive zone type), Jokiharju (not sure how he fits)

I like to beat the drum on certain players (Alex Tuch). Dante Fabbro opposite Byrum would make a really good 2nd pair.

 

[Sabresfansince1980]

Fast skating, good transition, sounds good and may do very well during the regular season against some mediocre teams. When bigger teams dump and chase, pound down low with a heavy forecheck, and cycle back to the blueline with organized possession, the D-corps is not big or physical enough to handle that. They will struggle against the forecheck, not body guys out around the crease/slot, and not be experienced enough to figure out solutions when they're outmatched like that. It's going to take time and physical development to improve, if they even commit to playing a tougher game.

 

[TageGod]

Get the best D you can and worry how it fits later is the plan.

They want a strong transition and play driver on each line (Dahlin, Byram) and a strong defensive presence (Samuelsson Power)

If your top 4 has two good of each style, you can pair them together in specific moments when behind (Dahlin Byram) and to close out a win (Power Samuelsson). Of course, Dahlin and Power can be elite at both things.

Power is in one sense, elite at transition, yet not quite the play driver we expect he can be. Also, he has the makings of a shutdown D, but lacks physicality. What Power will truly be makes the "pairings" look complicated.

Dahlin Samuelsson
Power Byram

The likely pairs.

5/6 is what it is, get the best pairing you can find. There is no lack of offensive ability in our core, so a more defensive 5/6 is smart.

 

[michaelsaas]

The vision is pretty clearly a fastbreak back-end that exits the zone quickly, moves the puck up-ice quickly and adds to the attack.

There seems to be an assumption among Sabres fans that:
a) you can have too many players who are good at the above, and
b) two guys who are good at the above can't play together, and
c) if you're good at the above, you automatically are a disaster at defending in your zone.

I don't agree with any of the above.

For me the success or failure comes down to how much better can Owen Power and Bowen Byram get at defending?

Each has the feet and the IQ but has only played about 160 NHL games. I expect that as their experience grows, each will follow the same path Dahlin has in terms of growing defensively.

As far as I'm concerned, this position is the team's strength.

Thanks. This was kind of my admittedly ill-informed position (hence the thread) it is re-assuring that there are people who see this as a workable defense model.

My big issue with our roster the last two years have been overall team defense (not necessarily D-corps) and I feel that we have made a lot of positive steps in the direction of addressing that this off-season.

Thanks everyone for your insights! It's been really helpful!

 

[SnuggaRUDE]

It should be
Dahlin-Jokiharju
Power-Samuelsson
Byram-Clifton

Those pairings have had the most success

It'll actually be

Samuelsson-Dahlin
Byram-Power
Jokiharju-Clifton

Because those pairings have had the least success

 

[rams]

Dahlin-Byram
Power-Samuelsson
Clifton-Jokiharju

Gilbert No. 7

Bryson - terminated or demoted to ECHL, I'm ok with either option.

 

[Chainshot]

How I think it winds up?

Dahlin-Jokiharju
Samuelsson-Power
Bryam-Clifton

Gilbert and Bryson fight it out as the 7, loser goes to the AHL.

 

[joshjull]

How I think it winds up?

Dahlin-Jokiharju
Samuelsson-Power
Bryam-Clifton

Gilbert and Bryson fight it out as the 7, loser goes to the AHL.

I would be shocked if Gilbert ended up in Rochester the way Adams talked about him. I feel pretty confident they want his toughness and fighting up here and in the lineup.

 

[Chainshot]

I would be shocked if Gilbert ended up in Rochester the way Adams talked about him. I feel pretty confident they want his toughness and fighting up here and in the lineup.

I think he has the leg up.

 

[Uberpecker]

Does anyone have somewhat meaningful data on Power-Clifton or even Byram-Clifton?
I felt like that was the vision for Clifton as a Sabre to begin with, and if any of those two could work as a 2nd pair, that would pretty much solve most of the d-corps issues.

 

[Chainshot]

Does anyone have somewhat meaningful data on Power-Clifton or even Byram-Clifton?
I felt like that was the vision for Clifton as a Sabre to begin with, and if any of those two could work as a 2nd pair, that would pretty much solve most of the d-corps issues.

Byram-Clifton on Moneypuck

11.1 minutes, shots 16 for, 11 against, xGF 0.6, xGA 0.2 for 75%

Power-Clifton on Moneypuck

192.4 minutes, 189 shots for, 155 against, xGF 7.4 , XGA 7.2 for 50.7%

 

[joshjull]

It should be
Dahlin-Jokiharju
Power-Samuelsson
Byram-Clifton

Those pairings have had the most success

It'll actually be

Samuelsson-Dahlin
Byram-Power
Jokiharju-Clifton

Because those pairings have had the least success

I’m not sure what you’re basing the “successful” pairs on. But what happened previously isn’t going to matter too much going forward with a new coach’s structure and usages. It’s also not possible to assert where Byram fits yet when he’s hardly played for us. No where near enough info for that.

 

[Chainshot]

I’m not sure what you’re basing the “successful” pairs on. But what happened previously isn’t going to matter too much going forward with a new coach’s structure and usages. It’s also not possible to assert where Byram fits yet when he’s hardly played for us. No where near enough info for that.

Yeah, I would find it odd to have every pair have someone on their offhand side.

 

[NotABadPeriod]

How I think it winds up?

Dahlin-Jokiharju
Samuelsson-Power
Bryam-Clifton

Gilbert and Bryson fight it out as the 7, loser goes to the AHL.

Agreed, but I think they go 13-8 and keep both guys in the press box.

 

[DapperCam]

I think it's going to be

Power - Dahlin
Byram - Clifton/Jokiharju
Samuelsson - Clifton/Jokiharju
Gilbert/Bryson

I think Power - Dahlin will get leaned on heavily in terms of situations and minutes. I would feel a lot better about it if one of Clifton or Jokiharju was upgraded for a better second pair RHD.

Ryan Johnson probably slots in there somewhere if there are injuries.

 

[elchud]

We talk a lot about Joker and he's overpaid ... but the biggest question marks in the backend are Power and Byram. They are both dynamic and talented and would like to see consistency out of these two.

 

[Zman5778]

Agreed, but I think they go 13-8 and keep both guys in the press box.

I tend to agree, at least initially. I think most NHL teams have a Rousek in their pipeline who makes $775....so he'll likely get through waivers with no issue.

Bryson at $900k though? Some NHL team is going to have D injuries and think that Bryson at 900k is better than what they have as a #7.

 

[Daz28]

I think they will go the old fashioned, "always one of these guys on the ice" with Dahls and Power. That likely leaves you with Sammy for Dahls and Bo with OP. I wouldn't hate OP with Sammy, though either if OP doesn't ever learn to be a bit more physical. If only OP had a little bit of Mo Seider in him!!!

 

[Zman5778]

though either if OP doesn't ever learn to be a bit more physical. If only OP had a little bit of Mo Seider in him!!!

Being physical isn't in Power's DNA. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that hoping for Power to magically become more physical is hoping that $1M will appear suddenly in your bank account for no reason and it's not in error.

When Power reaches max effectiveness in his own zone, it will be because he learns how to maximize his positioning and using his body to shield/divert forwards away from the puck as opposed to shoving them/hitting them away. Think a guy like J-Bouw or Niedermayer. I don't see a dumb player in Power at all, it's just a skill that takes some time to learn in the NHL. He started to show signs of it last year. Towards the end, he was doing it a couple of times per game......we just need that couple of times per game to become the norm.

 

[Jeremy2020]

20/40