Player Discussion What is the solution to this teams consistency problem?

[Micklebot]

1/3rd of the roster weren't regulars for this team last year, and we hired a new coach in the offseason, I'm not sure why anyone would expect immediate consistency.

It takes time to learn new systems and it takes time for coaches to break old habits.

We've played 500 hockey without some important players, Zub and Pinto in particular, and with Ullmark yet to find his footing after coming back from injury.

I know it's tough being patient, but now is the time to build on the positives and work through the areas needing improvement.

Zub and Pinto are skating and both possible to return tonight, that should be a big boost going forward.

 

[PlayOn]

IMO this is a fair question to ask for any bubble team, because by default they are all inconsistent. That’s what makes them a bubble team.

It could be youth. It could be the core itself. It could be that they haven’t fully found their footing with the new mix and coach. No one really knows if this is a continuation of a pattern or if it’s just growing pains.

So until we are no longer a bubble team, that’s the question revolving around the core. I like how they’ve played personally and I like the team, but it’d be silly to assume at this point the only option is that they are 100% going to put it all together.

Mind you I don’t think there is anything to be done right now. Let them navigate and see what happens, but it’s still worth discussing.

 

[Blotto71]

More fiber! Duh.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

1/3rd of the roster weren't regulars for this team last year, and we hired a new coach in the offseason, I'm not sure why anyone would expect immediate consistency.

It takes time to learn new systems and it takes time for coaches to break old habits.

We've played 500 hockey without some important players, Zub and Pinto in particular, and with Ullmark yet to find his footing after coming back from injury.

I know it's tough being patient, but now is the time to build on the positives and work through the areas needing improvement.

Zub and Pinto are skating and both possible to return tonight, that should be a big boost going forward.

Weren’t we 500 when pinto went out?

 

[Micklebot]

Weren’t we 500 when pinto went out?

I phrased that a bit odd, Pinto's last game was Utah, after which we were 4-2-0, if you break it down to with without him we are under 500 while Pinto is out of the lineup, and over with him in, what I mean was more that despite Zub and Pinto missing extensive time so far, we're still at 500, so getting them back should help us get back on track.

Before Pinto was out Greig and Ullmark were out, we've only played 2 games with a healthy roster.

 

[Tuna99]

1/3rd of the roster weren't regulars for this team last year, and we hired a new coach in the offseason, I'm not sure why anyone would expect immediate consistency.

It takes time to learn new systems and it takes time for coaches to break old habits.

We've played 500 hockey without some important players, Zub and Pinto in particular, and with Ullmark yet to find his footing after coming back from injury.

I know it's tough being patient, but now is the time to build on the positives and work through the areas needing improvement.

Zub and Pinto are skating and both possible to return tonight, that should be a big boost going forward.

I think we expect consistency because that’s what they’ve been preaching since Jacques Martin was hired and Brady said 2 weeks ago after the Montreal game “you won’t see us play another game like that all year” and we’ve seen them now no show multiple times into a 12 game season.

We expect consistency because that’s what they say they are going to deliver - and they don’t, so we ask why, and the answer is “because they are inconsistent”

Rinse, wash, repeat

 

[Dan Patrick]

Picked other: Get core pieces back from injury, overhaul scouting staff, give it a year, overhaul the roster (soft rebuild). Do it in that order. Anyone ready to give up on the core or coach a month into the season had their mind made up about this team before any hockey was played.

I get that a few very vocal posters hate Brady, hate the roster construction, and hate the coach. While that’s fine, it’s exhausting having them act like they are Nostradamus after every loss.

 

[JD1]

play well tonight against the Islanders and it will be all roses tomorrow

i was disappointed in the Buffalo game. Definitely one we need to figure out how to win. But we are in the race and we're generally playing well.

 

[robsenz]

Beat crappy teams and learn how to win on the Road/in November

 

[Silky Johnson]

They are where they should be considering.

They have lost a few games that they should have won.

Ulmark hasn't found his game yet.

Pinto, Zub and Perron have missed a bunch of games. Zub coming back is huge as Sanderson is severely limited when paired with Hamonic. Pinto back is also a big deal.

They have only really played poorly in two games. All teams have bad games.

With a bit of puck luck they would be 8&4 rather then 6&6.

New coach, new players, new system.

My hope was for them to be above .500 at Christmas and have a strong second half in to the wildcard/3seed. That is still on track


What were your expectations?

 

[GCK]

Having Hamonic play these minutes especially on the road where we don’t have last change is problematic. If Zub gets hurt again this season for any amount of time, Staios will need to address it through acquisition.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I phrased that a bit odd, Pinto's last game was Utah, after which we were 4-2-0, if you break it down to with without him we are under 500 while Pinto is out of the lineup, and over with him in, what I mean was more that despite Zub and Pinto missing extensive time so far, we're still at 500, so getting them back should help us get back on track.

Before Pinto was out Greig and Ullmark were out, we've only played 2 games with a healthy roster.

We are certainly better with zub and pinto. But we will never be totally healthy. Not many teams are and our players are a tad injury prone.

They are where they should be considering.

They have lost a few games that they should have won.

Ulmark hasn't found his game yet.

Pinto, Zub and Perron have missed a bunch of games. Zub coming back is huge as Sanderson is severely limited when paired with Hamonic. Pinto back is also a big deal.

They have only really played poorly in two games. All teams have bad games.

With a bit of puck luck they would be 8&4 rather then 6&6.

New coach, new players, new system.

My hope was for them to be above .500 at Christmas and have a strong second half in to the wildcard/3seed. That is still on track


What were your expectations?

Zub coming back is huge but he’s likely be out again again soon

 

[Sting]

The list goes on. Everyone took care of their own end first and let the offense follow.

Tkachuk? Nope. Blows the zone all the time.
Stutzle? Nope. Cheats for offense all the time.
Batherson? Nope. Disappears and looks nonchalant defensively.

When your best forwards are elite defensively vs when your best forwards don't give a crap defensively and want to pad the stats.

Teach these guys how to even play a few minutes of shut down hockey...we can't even do that. No lead is ever safe. Once we teach them how to play shut down hockey, we make them play that almost all the time and then just get offense when offense presents itself.

We could use a boucher style coach, or Jacques Martin 1.0 style.

Aside from that, this core is too one dimensional so they'll never win anything of importance. Change the core up. Make trades. Draft new star players.

I don't agree with Boucher/Martin style coaching for this team, but I do completely agree with you in that our top forwards cheat. I don't know if this was so ingrained in them from the start of their careers that its too late now, but it's beyond frustrating. Stu has gotten slightly better at this, but

Brady is and has always been one of the worst offenders. I think he is hindered by his speed quite a bit and if he were to start in the defensive zone he wouldn't generate much offense. The other problem with Brady as well is that he is not a great cycle forward. He can protect the puck and win puck battles but he's poor at offensive reads and sustaining pressure.

In terms of the question posed by the thread starter - it's hard to be consistent when we don't have a strong base to rely on. There's no superstar player like Mackinnon or McDavid on this team that we can count on to just take over and put the team on their back. The top line plays a rush heavy, turnover based offensive style that is very susceptible to game-to-game changes and puck luck.

 

[BankStreetParade]

1/3rd of the roster weren't regulars for this team last year, and we hired a new coach in the offseason, I'm not sure why anyone would expect immediate consistency.

It takes time to learn new systems and it takes time for coaches to break old habits.

We've played 500 hockey without some important players, Zub and Pinto in particular, and with Ullmark yet to find his footing after coming back from injury.

I know it's tough being patient, but now is the time to build on the positives and work through the areas needing improvement.

Zub and Pinto are skating and both possible to return tonight, that should be a big boost going forward.

Teams who made coaching changes this offseason:

Team	Record	P%	Goal Diff.
Buffalo	5-7-1	.423	-2
Columbus	5-5-2	.500	0
New Jersey	8-5-2	.600	+11
Ottawa	6-6-0	.500	+5
Toronto	7-5-2	.571	+4
San Jose	4-8-2	.357	-17
Seattle	5-8-1	.393	-5
Winnipeg	12-1-0	.923	+32

Remove San Jose and Winnipeg (bottom feeder vs. veteran-heavy team) from this exercise because they don't really count. Toronto and New Jersey got the 2 most coveted coaches in the offseason, they're performing better than all the other teams who made coaching changes. We're marginally better than Buffalo but they just whooped us the other night, so...

I think the idea that it takes this long to learn a new system is just making excuses or trying to find ways to explain what we're seeing. Maybe Green is a better coach now? Maybe. Maybe he's getting the same results he got in his last job because he's not that good? Maybe. But we're getting pretty close to that 20 game mark where you can confidently say what a team is. By the time November is over, we'll have played 23 games and looking at the schedule I'm hard-pressed to believe we're going to be at .500 or above.

In the next 10 days, road games against Boston, Toronto and Carolina. In the second half of the month, home to Edmonton, Vegas, Vancouver and Calgary. Of the next 11 games we play, I realistically project a 4-7 record. Who knows, maybe we get a 5-6 record. That's still .500 or under going into December. Yes, the games need to be played and they could surprise us all and start performing in a way that's commensurate with a playoff team's record. But if we're looking at what we've seen so far and projecting it out for the next 11 games, the realistic takes are under .500. If this is what bears out, it's going to be hard to make the argument that we got the right coach in the offseason. I really hope they beat my projections because watching years of losing hockey f***ing sucks.

I don't agree with Boucher/Martin style coaching for this team, but I do completely agree with you in that our top forwards cheat. I don't know if this was so ingrained in them from the start of their careers that its too late now, but it's beyond frustrating. Stu has gotten slightly better at this, but

Brady is and has always been one of the worst offenders. I think he is hindered by his speed quite a bit and if he were to start in the defensive zone he wouldn't generate much offense. The other problem with Brady as well is that he is not a great cycle forward. He can protect the puck and win puck battles but he's poor at offensive reads and sustaining pressure.

In terms of the question posed by the thread starter - it's hard to be consistent when we don't have a strong base to rely on. There's no superstar player like Mackinnon or McDavid on this team that we can count on to just take over and put the team on their back. The top line plays a rush heavy, turnover based offensive style that is very susceptible to game-to-game changes and puck luck.

Stutzle's a gamebreaker, there's no question. He has the skating, speed, hands and vision that are required. Don't kid yourself into believing otherwise.

 

[Micklebot]

We are certainly better with zub and pinto. But we will never be totally healthy. Not many teams are and our players are a tad injury prone.


Zub coming back is huge but he’s likely be out again again soon

Sure, never totally healthy, but there's a big game betweenissing Zub and Pinto vs Hamonic and MacEwen.

I'm not about to predict which players will get hurt in the future, Zub breaking his jaw or getting cross checked in the head by Perron isn't injury prone type of injuries. Sometimes shit happens and isn't predictive of the future.

 

[Sting]

Stutzle's a gamebreaker, there's no question. He has the skating, speed, hands and vision that are required. Don't kid yourself into believing otherwise.

He is, sure. I agree he has the talent.

To date he has not shown he can put a team on his back and carry the load the same way that some superstars can. All I'm saying.

I think he would benefit from different linemates, personally. They should split Brady and Tim.

 

[Beech]

take a real good look at all rebuilds this century. 24 years now of a similar pattern.

1) the cycle is principally 5-12 years.
2) consisting of 2-3 rebuilds, rolled into one. The initial group of young prospects that come in, show promise, then fizzle. That often leads to a re-collapse. The second or third rebuild, seems to bring with it more successful players and the ascension begins and success is achieved
3) an off the wall free agent... think of Hossa in Chicago. Chara in Boston, Pannarin in NYR.
4) an insane trade that is off the wall... McDonough in Tampa Bay. Add to it Sergachev
5) and off the wall late round pick(s). Marchand, Bergeron, Pasternak in Boston. Kucherov in TB.
6) an off the wall high pick(s) that become HOFs and individual trophy winners... Name anyone on Pitt, Chicago, Tampa, Edmonton, Toronto, Colorado, Florida, Los Angeles.... Boston is the one exception (superstars, but drafted late).
7) a goalie who can stop pucks

So now, apply this test to Ottawa, Detroit, NYI, Buffalo, Utah, Columbus, SJ, Anaheim. And you will see why they are bottom dwellers that have failed to pull themselves up.

In Ottawa's case
1) check
2) fail
3) fail...somewhat. Giroux!!
4) fail
5) fail
6) somewhat fail. So far no one is showing HOF play. Early to tell on Sanderson and Stuzzle.
7) OUCH.. I mean f***ing OUCH.

the issues are deep and are no longer easy to fix. So many mistakes, so many issues that are now cast in stone and cannot be undone.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

Picked other: Get core pieces back from injury, overhaul scouting staff, give it a year, overhaul the roster (soft rebuild). Do it in that order. Anyone ready to give up on the core or coach a month into the season had their mind made up about this team before any hockey was played.

I get that a few very vocal posters hate Brady, hate the roster construction, and hate the coach. While that’s fine, it’s exhausting having them act like they are Nostradamus after every loss.

Speaking for myself. As I have turned on the core.

Coach is doing a great job. I certainly did. It expect that.

But the inconsistency over the last several years has turned me sour on the some of these players.

I think they can definitely make the playoffs with very strong goaltending.

I never like paying goalies they’re like running backs.

But even with strong goaltending. Where are we going? I envision a bubble team for the next decade.

Teams who made coaching changes this offseason:

Team	Record	P%	Goal Diff.
Buffalo	5-7-1	.423	-2
Columbus	5-5-2	.500	0
New Jersey	8-5-2	.600	+11
Ottawa	6-6-0	.500	+5
Toronto	7-5-2	.571	+4
San Jose	4-8-2	.357	-17
Seattle	5-8-1	.393	-5
Winnipeg	12-1-0	.923	+32

Remove San Jose and Winnipeg (bottom feeder vs. veteran-heavy team) from this exercise because they don't really count. Toronto and New Jersey got the 2 most coveted coaches in the offseason, they're performing better than all the other teams who made coaching changes. We're marginally better than Buffalo but they just whooped us the other night, so...

I think the idea that it takes this long to learn a new system is just making excuses or trying to find ways to explain what we're seeing. Maybe Green is a better coach now? Maybe. Maybe he's getting the same results he got in his last job because he's not that good? Maybe. But we're getting pretty close to that 20 game mark where you can confidently say what a team is. By the time November is over, we'll have played 23 games and looking at the schedule I'm hard-pressed to believe we're going to be at .500 or above.

In the next 10 days, road games against Boston, Toronto and Carolina. In the second half of the month, home to Edmonton, Vegas, Vancouver and Calgary. Of the next 11 games we play, I realistically project a 4-7 record. Who knows, maybe we get a 5-6 record. That's still .500 or under going into December. Yes, the games need to be played and they could surprise us all and start performing in a way that's commensurate with a playoff team's record. But if we're looking at what we've seen so far and projecting it out for the next 11 games, the realistic takes are under .500. If this is what bears out, it's going to be hard to make the argument that we got the right coach in the offseason. I really hope they beat my projections because watching years of losing hockey f***ing sucks.


Stutzle's a gamebreaker, there's no question. He has the skating, speed, hands and vision that are required. Don't kid yourself into believing otherwise.

Sure he’s a game breaker. Nylander is a game breaker as well. So is marner.

If they’re your absolute best forward you’re likely not winning anything.

It’s hard to win when they’re you’re 2nd and 3rd best forwards

Don’t think stutzle is as good as marner at the moment either.

We need a guy who controls the play every second he’s on the ice.

 

[Cosmix]

IMO this is a fair question to ask for any bubble team, because by default they are all inconsistent. That’s what makes them a bubble team.

It could be youth. It could be the core itself. It could be that they haven’t fully found their footing with the new mix and coach. No one really knows if this is a continuation of a pattern or if it’s just growing pains.

So until we are no longer a bubble team, that’s the question revolving around the core. I like how they’ve played personally and I like the team, but it’d be silly to assume at this point the only option is that they are 100% going to put it all together.

Mind you I don’t think there is anything to be done right now. Let them navigate and see what happens, but it’s still worth discussing.

The team has played some very good games and lost (e.g., Vegas). They have also played some very bad games and lost (e.g., Montreal and Buffalo). The coaching staff needs to get the team playing a solid defensive game more consistently.

We are at 12 games now and that consistency should start to show up after we have completed about 20 games (1/4 of the season).

We are also missing 3 regular players: Zub, Pinto and Perron. When those 3 return and all others are healthy and playing where they belong, we should see some improvement.

 

[Micklebot]

Teams who made coaching changes this offseason:

Team	Record	P%	Goal Diff.
Buffalo	5-7-1	.423	-2
Columbus	5-5-2	.500	0
New Jersey	8-5-2	.600	+11
Ottawa	6-6-0	.500	+5
Toronto	7-5-2	.571	+4
San Jose	4-8-2	.357	-17
Seattle	5-8-1	.393	-5
Winnipeg	12-1-0	.923	+32

Remove San Jose and Winnipeg (bottom feeder vs. veteran-heavy team) from this exercise because they don't really count. Toronto and New Jersey got the 2 most coveted coaches in the offseason, they're performing better than all the other teams who made coaching changes. We're marginally better than Buffalo but they just whooped us the other night, so...

I think the idea that it takes this long to learn a new system is just making excuses or trying to find ways to explain what we're seeing. Maybe Green is a better coach now? Maybe. Maybe he's getting the same results he got in his last job because he's not that good? Maybe. But we're getting pretty close to that 20 game mark where you can confidently say what a team is. By the time November is over, we'll have played 23 games and looking at the schedule I'm hard-pressed to believe we're going to be at .500 or above.

In the next 10 days, road games against Boston, Toronto and Carolina. In the second half of the month, home to Edmonton, Vegas, Vancouver and Calgary. Of the next 11 games we play, I realistically project a 4-7 record. Who knows, maybe we get a 5-6 record. That's still .500 or under going into December. Yes, the games need to be played and they could surprise us all and start performing in a way that's commensurate with a playoff team's record. But if we're looking at what we've seen so far and projecting it out for the next 11 games, the realistic takes are under .500. If this is what bears out, it's going to be hard to make the argument that we got the right coach in the offseason. I really hope they beat my projections because watching years of losing hockey f***ing sucks.


Stutzle's a gamebreaker, there's no question. He has the skating, speed, hands and vision that are required. Don't kid yourself into believing otherwise.

Scott arneil was the assistant and took over from Bowness, likely didn't change the system at all.

Toronto was a top team last year, their w% is significantly worse than last year, and you're presenting them as evidence against it taking time to adapt to a new coach?

NJD were decimated by injuries and terrible goaltending, they had a significantly higher w% the year prior to that when they were heAalthier and got saves than they currently have.

Blue Jackets are up from last year despite the tragic loss of a key player in the offseason, but Kraken are down

I'm really not sure your table is showing what you think it is, but regardless of that there's more to a teams record than just a coaching change, like the massive roster turnover I mentioned you left out in your reply, and how long it takes to adapt to a new system depends on how big the changes are,

 

[BankStreetParade]

He is, sure. I agree he has the talent.

To date he has not shown he can put a team on his back and carry the load the same way that some superstars can. All I'm saying.

I think he would benefit from different linemates, personally. They should split Brady and Tim.

He's 22 and he has more 4pt+ games than anyone under 23 in franchise history. Guys who are not elite are not putting up video game numbers like that. It's a very real possibility that by the end of this year he'll be top 200 all time for players with 4pt+ games.

The problem you've identified are his linemates. This team just doesn't really have the guys to keep up with him. And I completely agree with you about Brady and Tim. I've been saying it going back to last year, they need to put Brady-Norris-Bath together again. That line works because they all play at the same speed. Stutzle needs guys with high IQs and a combination of speed and/or finish to get the most out of him. It's entirely possible that we don't have that kind of player in our system and will need to find one on the market (trade or FA).

 

[BankStreetParade]

Scott arneil was the assistant and took over from Bowness, likely didn't change the system at all.

As I said in my post, we can DISREGARD Winnipeg and San Jose. Glad you're reading the entire post before scrambling to hammer out your response.

Toronto was a top team last year, their w% is significantly worse than last year, and you're presenting them as evidence against it taking time to adapt to a new coach?

14 games into the year in 2023, they had a ... .571 p%. What's significantly better about the exact same p% from the same time frame as the year before?

NJD were decimated by injuries and terrible goaltending, they had a significantly higher w% the year prior to that when they were heAalthier and got saves than they currently have.

NJ had a .577 p% through the comparable stretch last year. This year they're at .600. More or less the same with a slight improvement.

Blue Jackets are up from last year despite the tragic loss of a key player in the offseason, but Kraken are down

Blue Jackets not expected to be very good. Beating expectations. Kraken, who knows what's going on with them. Lost 4 in a row.

I'm really not sure your table is showing what you think it is, but regardless of that there's more to a teams record than just a coaching change, like the massive roster turnover I mentioned you left out in your reply, and how long it takes to adapt to a new system depends on how big the changes are,

Massive roster change?

9/14 roster forwards still the same as last year.
6/7 defensemen still the same as last year.
New starting goalie.
All of the new forwards are playing on the third or fourth line.

 

[SpezDispenser]

I think the solution is to realize there's always two teams playing. A lot of us were warning about that Buffalo game, and yet.. .

Now, every team shits the bed from time to time, how they respond tonight and through the next ~5 will say a lot

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Zub and Pinto, that's two important pieces

Ya, I agree, Perron too even, I just didn't want to get greedy and be told there's always injuries. If there's one we don't overcome well imo, it's Zub, because Hammer really doesn't belong up there and even though I've stuck up for him as a 6/7, he's clearly not suited for that role anymore and hurts the team.

I don't believe it is. I'm talking about an issue which is affecting us right now and while some of the ways of fixing it can only happen in the offseason, it's important to take a good long look at it now because it's sort of wild to me that they are still this inconsistent with the core being this much more experienced.

I don't think so, but we'll see where it goes. I might feel otherwise in a month, but I have liked what I've seen so far this year.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

9/14 roster forwards still the same as last year.
6/7 defensemen still the same as last year.
New starting goalie.
All of the new forwards are playing on the third or fourth line.

That's a lot of turn over for 1 team even though you've tried to frame it as little, but also your numbers are only sort of correct.

Norris and Pinto missed a lot of games last year even though they're 2 of the 9 returning forwards, so some context needed there, especially with how much better Norris looks this time around. Also, 5 of 14 is more like 5 of 12, since the 5 coming in are all full time players, so far, not sitting in the press box. That's almost 50% of their nightly forward group and you're saying that's not much change?

And it's more like 5/7 Dmen with Kleven promoted full time and confident, with Jensen as the other.

Sprinkle in half your goaltending being recycled and an almost entirely new coaching staff. That's a ton of change for one team year to year.