What is Mario Lemieux's best season

[WalterLundy]

So mack is the best player in the league by this measure

League scoring and distribution between even strength/powerplay/shorthanded has been relatively stable the last 7 seasons. Unlike when power play scoring plummetted from 95-96 to 96-97 expalining why Lemieux’s production fell off moreso than the other league leaders between the seasons. McDavid also was the best for even strength points per game last year while and while injured all season going against two peak Jagr season equivalents. He’s also been the ES ppg leader for the duration of his career. I also wasn’t the one arguing Jagr>Lemieux for the range but that it is close. Just was giving you all the context.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

League scoring and distribution between even strength/powerplay/shorthanded has been relatively stable the last 7 seasons. Unlike when power play scoring plummetted from 95-96 to 96-97 expalining why Lemieux’s production fell off moreso than the other league leaders between the seasons. McDavid also was the best for even strength points per game last year while and while injured all season going against two peak Jagr season equivalents. He’s also been the ES ppg leader for the duration of his career. I also wasn’t the one arguing Jagr>Lemieux for the range but that it is close. Just was giving you all the context.

Mack has led the league in ev points for 2 straight seasons. Hes the best player in the league then? Or is it only mario that gets dissected by you haters to that degree? Interesting enough in mcdavids 153 point year mack once again led in ev scoring in DOMINATING fashion. Maybe mcdavid was not even the best player that year. very interesting indeed.

 

[WalterLundy]

Mack has led the league in ev points for 2 straight seasons. Hes the best player in the league then? Or is it only mario that gets dissected by you haters to that degree? Interesting enough in mcdavids 153 point year mack once again led in ev scoring in DOMINATING fashion. Maybe mcdavid was not even the best player that year. very interesting indeed.

Learn how to read. The power of literacy my friend is quite useful. Also take the misplaced anger and hater accusations someplace else. I never said Jagr> Lemieux for 96 and 97 but that it was close whereas a Lemieux at his best as in 89 or 93 wouldn’t have this issue. I also gave you reasons why.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Learn how to read. The power of literacy my friend is quite useful. Also take the misplaced anger and hater accusations someplace else. I never said Jagr> Lemieux but that it was close whereas a Lemieux at his best as in 89 or 93 wouldn’t have this issue.

So answer me this question? Was it close between mack n mc during the 2022-23 season? If your answer is no....then you have no basis to be saying it was close between mario n jagr during the 1996 season

 

[WalterLundy]

So answer me this question? Was it close between mack n mc during the 2022-23 season? If your answer is no....then you have no basis to be saying it was close between mario n jagr during the 1996 season

I gave you context that you didn’t read in messages prior but I’ll keep this relatively short. Jagr and Lemieux were close for the 96 and 97 RANGE as a whole. The first half of 95-96 Lemieux created the separation because of the 80s level environment created by the powerplay explosion. There you could say it wasn’t super close (first 48 team games) After that ended they WERE close from then until the end of 1997 as the league stayed roughly the same in that span. The league was NOT stable as special teams scoring and prevalence declined overnight halfway through and stayed 96-97 level from the second half of 95-96 through 96-97. Jagr and Lemieux were also teammates so this is not a valid comparison. Lemieux was better in both seasons but after the league changed it was very close.

As for MacKinnon in 2023 he had 111 in 71 with better even strength numbers. McDavid had enough points for the Ross win in 68 games. More points than any non teammate would post in only 61 games. Beating his closest non teammate by 40 points and being the first since 86-87 Gretzky to lead outright in goals, assists and points. It was the best non shortened season we have seen in 30 years. McDavid also had 71 powerplay points being the engine that drove the greatest powerplay of all time by percentage in a league with FEWER powerplay goals and opportunities than even 96-97 did. When adjusted it’s the best powerplay single season ever (23 McDavid). Actually fewer PP goals and opportunities than most years ever. As I’ve mentioned 2018-2024 has been stable for scoring levels across even strength, powerplay, shorthanded. Very low special teams scoring. Therefore there is no context to be applied as to how players got their points. These players are non teammates and McDavid has had a higher points per game every season. Also had a higher even strength points per game than MacKinnon last season and did so while injured. My answer is no it was not close. Very simple stuff and very irrelevant comparison here that is invalidated when any and all context is remotely applied.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I gave you context that you didn’t read in messages prior but I’ll keep this relatively short. Jagr and Lemieux were close for the 96 and 97 RANGE as a whole. The first half of 95-96 Lemieux created the separation because of the 80s level environment created by the powerplay explosion. There you could say it wasn’t super close (first 48 team games) After that ended they WERE close from then until the end of 1997 as the league stayed roughly the same in that span. The league was NOT stable as special teams scoring and prevalence declined overnight halfway through and stayed 96-97 level from the second half of 95-96 through 96-97. Jagr and Lemieux were also teammates so this is not a valid comparison. Lemieux was better in both seasons but after the league changed it was very close.

As for MacKinnon in 2023 he had 111 in 71 with better even strength numbers. McDavid had enough points for the Ross win in 68 games. Beating his closest non teammate by 40 points and being the first since 86-87 Gretzky to lead outright in goals, assists and points. McDavid also had 71 powerplay points being the engine that drove the greatest powerplay of all time by percentage in a league with FEWER powerplay goals and opportunities than even 96-97 did. When adjusted it’s the best powerplay single season ever (23 McDavid). Actually fewer PP goals and opportunities than most years ever. As I’ve mentioned 2018-2024 has been stable for scoring levels across even strength, powerplay, shorthanded. Very low special teams scoring. Therefore there is no context to be applied as to how players got their points. These players are non teammates and McDavid has had a higher points per game every season. Also had a higher even strength points per game than MacKinnon last season and did so while injured. My answer is no it was not close. Very simple stuff and very irrelevant comparison here that is invalidated when any and all context is remotely applied.

And 1995-1996 is the best season ever adjusted lol. Mario also beat his closest non teamate in scoring by 40 but heres the kicker. He did it in 12 less games. Your giving mcdavid credit for driving that so called greatest pp in history while also docking lemieux points for being a better pp scorer than jagr was. If you cannot see the hypocrisy in your posts then I don't know what to tell you.

 

[WalterLundy]

And 1995-1996 is the best season ever adjusted lol. Mario also beat his closest non teamate in scoring by 40 but heres the kicker. He did it in 12 less games. Your giving mcdavid credit for driving that so called greatest pp in history while also docking lemieux points for being a better pp scorer than jagr was. If you cannot see the hypocrisy in your posts then I don't know what to tell you.

It’s not the so called greatest powerplay ever it just is. You can look these things up. Also you are referencing HockeyReference’s adjusted stats for Lemieux having the best “adjusted ppg”. What a clownshow. That’s a baseball site that made those stats man so if you want to put your faith in those then have at it. many users on here have come up with better (still flawed) methods than that. People like myself actually saw Lemieux’s career unlike you and we actually know better than to consider his 1996 his best let alone the best ever on a per game basis. That’s laughable. I’m also not docking him points for being a better powerplay practictioner I’m showing YOU what happened when the environment changed greatly. Lemieux was still better but since the powerplays FELL his gap did as well. If anything you are the hypocrite on this site. You levy accusations of being a hater while being a notorious Gretzky/McDavid hater yourself. All I try to do is add to conversations if that makes me a hater in the eyes of someone lacking basic reading comprehension then so be it. At least understand my position before any accusations/name calling. I can restate it for you. Lemieux was much better with a favorable high Powerplay environment. He was marginally better without that when the league changed.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

It’s not the so called greatest powerplay ever it just is. You can look these things up. Also you are referencing HockeyReference’s adjusted stats for Lemieux having the best “adjusted ppg”. What a clownshow. That’s a baseball site that made those stats man so if you want to put your faith in those then have at it. many users on here have come up with better (still flawed) methods than that. People like myself actually saw Lemieux’s career unlike you and we actually know better than to consider his 1996 his best let alone the best ever on a per game basis. That’s laughable. I’m also not docking him points for being a better powerplay practictioner I’m showing YOU what happened when the environment changed greatly. Lemieux was still better but since the powerplays FELL his gap did as well. If anything you are the hypocrite on this site. You levy accusations of being a hater while being a notorious Gretzky/McDavid hater yourself. All I try to do is add to conversations if that makes me a hater in the eyes of someone lacking basic reading comprehension then so be it. At least understand my position before any accusations/name calling. I can restate it for you. Lemieux was much better with a favorable high Powerplay environment. He was marginally better without that when the league changed.

Considering lemieux was easily better than Jagr in 96-97 as well without your pp excuse. The word marginally is misplaced good ol pal. I simply do not agree with you.

 

[WalterLundy]

Considering lemieux was easily better than Jagr in 96-97 as well without your pp excuse. The word marginally is misplaced good ol pal. I simply do not agree with you.

Right…..
1.61 to 1.51 per game. Jagr having better goals per game and even strength points per game to go with that small gap that shrunk mightily from the year prior means it was misplaced. You don’t have to agree. We typically don’t.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Right…..
1.61 to 1.51 per game. Jagr having better goals per game and even strength points per game to go with that small gap that shrunk mightily from the year prior means it was misplaced. You don’t have to agree. We typically don’t.

Thats an 11 point gap. So again that is not marginally

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Thats an 11 point gap. So again that is not marginally. Oh and that 1.06 ev ppg against lemieuxs 1.03 ev ppg is the only thing that is marginal.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux getting having 73 ev points in 70 gp and 79 ev in 76 gp being nitpicked is one of the most bizzare things on this site. He just happens to be the best pp scorer of all times on top of an ev guru. No other players ev points get as analyzed.

 

[WalterLundy]

Thats an 11 point gap. So again that is not marginally

Right but I’m also factoring in goals per game as well. Lemieux also said Jagr was better at that point. I’m not saying that much but to say it wasn’t close at this stage is a stretch especially when you are a pens season ticket holder that has a pretty solid memory.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Right but I’m also factoring in goals per game as well. Lemieux also said Jagr was better at that point. I’m not saying that much but to say it wasn’t close at this stage is a stretch especially when you are a pens season ticket holder that has a pretty solid memory.

If jagr being on pace to score 51 less points over two seasons is "close" then i guess you can be right.

If jagr being on pace to score 51 less points over two seasons is "close" then i guess you can be right. Mario being 30 n not as physically dominating due to all his ailments doesn't change the fact that in the two combined seasons of 95-96 and 96-97 he was easily the best player in the world.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Two seasons combined
Lemieux 283 p in 146 gp. 1.93 ppg
Jagr 244 p in 145 gp. 1.68 ppg.

Which is a 20 point gap in an 82 game season.

Checkmate

 

[WalterLundy]

If jagr being on pace to score 51 less points over two seasons is "close" then i guess you can be right.

I was talking about the 1996-97 season and then this range as a whole. When the league changed the gap shrunk cosniderably. Don’t worry Lemieux was still the best and I agree but everything I’ve said is accurate and factual.

Two seasons combined
Lemieux 283 p in 146 gp. 1.93 ppg
Jagr 244 p in 145 gp. 1.68 ppg.

Which is a 20 point gap in an 82 game season.

Checkmate

You are arguing with nobody at this point as this wasn’t even what was being discussed. The reason for that is either emotion or the inability to actually identify what is precisely is being discussed. What’s funny is we agree that Lemieux was better for any sample for the two seasons. It’s all so silly.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

I was talking about the 1996-97 season and then this range as a whole. When the league changed the gap shrunk cosniderably. Don’t worry Lemieux was still the best and I agree but everything I’ve said is accurate and factual.


You are arguing with nobody at this point as this wasn’t even what was being discussed. The reason for that is either emotion or the inability to actually identify what is precisely is being discussed. What’s funny is we agree that Lemieux was better for any sample for the two seasons. It’s all so silly.

Ok so in that time span you said the league changed lemieux still outpaced him by 13 points per season. Is 13 points marginally? Id say lemieux was "clearly" still better. Thats the argument here. Marginally does not work.

 

[WalterLundy]

Ok so in that time span you said the league changed lemieux still outpaced him by 13 points per season. Is 13 points marginally? Id say lemieux was "clearly" still better. Thats the argument here. Marginally does not work.

It’s not what I said it’s reality. You also can think that. When you consider more than than this it gets a bit closer. Regardless the overall point was that the gap had closed tremendously due to what I explained and Lemieux said himself that he felt Jagr was better by 1997. This all is a bit silly. Especially when we agree that Lemieux was still better.

 

[thadd]

92-93 is the most impressive season in all of pro sports considering the circumstances surrounding it.

This.
I can't imagine getting treated for cancer any playing hockey a fight nights later. This is on top of the back inuries.

 

[Golden_Jet]

88-89, he had a lot less help then he did in 92-93

 

[frisco]

I'd almost go off the board and say 1989-90. Scored in 46 straight games and 123 points in 59 games with Rob Brown as his best linemate and playing at about 30% capacity because of his ailing back.

My Best-Carey

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

It’s not what I said it’s reality. You also can think that. When you consider more than than this it gets a bit closer. Regardless the overall point was that the gap had closed tremendously due to what I explained and Lemieux said himself that he felt Jagr was better by 1997. This all is a bit silly. Especially when we agree that Lemieux was still better.

I'd say Lemieux was better in 95-96, and they were pretty much even in 96-97. Jagr was almost surely going to surpass him by 97-98 if Lemieux didn't retire.

95-96 even strength numbers are a bit deceptive since Lemieux got Sandstrom and a rookie Naslund as his linemates while Jagr played on a stacked line with Francis and Nedved.

And it's true that when Lemieux was retiring, he said something to the effect that the Pens were not losing the best player in the world, that Jagr was still there.

 

[Toby91ca]

But the best season? I'd have to go with 1989. He scored 16 more goals and 23 more assists (39 more points). He did that on a much weaker team. And it was harder in 1989 for players to reach big point totals (there were 21 players with 100 points in 1993 and only 9 in 1989).

Maybe, but there were 4 guys that scored 150+ points that year, which is why I went with 92/93....the only hesitation in going with that year is him missing 20 games vs. playing a full season, otherwise, it would have been a simple question.

 

[Bounces R Way]

Rob Brown with 115pts in 88-89 has got to be one of the funniest statistical outliers in league history. He broke 60 in only one other season and played 15 years.

Tough question, I've never loved pace arguments for hockey seasons but in a player of Mario's caliber it's a little different. Went with 89 because that was a great year for hockey

 

[Toby91ca]

Its the biggest robbery in the history of the Hart. Nothing else comes even close.

The Penguins first made the playoffs in 88-89 entirely on the back of Mario... The Kings had made the playoffs two prior years to Gretz arriving, and it had Robataille and a like a half dozen crazy mofos from Sudbury like Dave Taylor and Ron Dugay. They were solid AF.

Total joke and slap in Mario the magnificents face.

My vote would have gone to Mario in 1989 for Hart as well, but I'm guessing the rationale would have included stuff like the following: LA made the playoffs the year before and PIT didn't, but PIT was a better team....was a divisional thing. LA lost a 55 goal scorer, 107pt guy when bringing in Gretzky and they were able to improve the team by 23pts. PIT went from having no one score 80pts the year before other than Mario to a team that had 2 other guys with 100+ pts and they only improved their record by 6pts.

I'm wondering if awarding him the Hart the year before when his team missed the playoffs played into it as well. Voter fatigue with Gretzky wining in 8 times in a row and could have won again. Lemieux won the scoring race, but likely only because Gretzky missed a lot of games. Voters could have gone either way there and had a good argument for Gretzky due to Lemieux missing the playoffs. I think winning the scoring race and Gretzky missing so many games was enough to offset though (I think if you miss more than 15 games you are getting close to that territory where it's tough to win the Hart. Also, Lemieux winning the Pearson over Gretzky in '86 was silly, so maybe people were thinking that too.....again, maybe voter fatigue that year. Funning thing is, the Hart voting in 1988 and 1989 wasn't particularly close, so the winner each year seemed to go without much controversy (1988 Lemieux had 54 1st place votes to Gretzky's 2 and in 1989 Gretzky had 40 1st pace votes to Lemieux's 18.