What is considered a weak team come PO time?

[Rorschach]

But this Kings’ roster does consistently make the playoffs. Weak teams are the ones that miss.

Making the playoffs and losing in the first round is not a good thing. It's almost as bad as missing the playoffs every year. Basically you have no chance to win the Cup and you have no chance to win the draft lottery.

 

[Fatass]

Making the playoffs and losing in the first round is not a good thing. It's almost as bad as missing the playoffs every year. Basically you have no chance to win the Cup and you have no chance to win the draft lottery.

Are you suggesting the Kings should rebuild because they lost in round one?

 

[Rorschach]

Rather than look at out-of-context statistics, such as regular season numbers, we can look at roster construction of nearly all Stanley Cup winners. The playoff game has little to do with the regular season game, which is why so often the President's Cup winner doesn't win the Cup.

One key (likely the biggest key) is the first line center...
Big-two way centers of SC winners:
2006 - Rod Brind'amour (Hurricanes)
2007 - none, this is the rare case where a team has 2x 1Ds (Pronger and Niedermayer) (Ducks)
2008 - Pavel Datsyuk (Wings)
2009 - Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin (Penguins)
2010 - Jonathan Toews (Hawks)
2011 - Patrice Bergeron (Bruins)
2012 - Anze Kopitar (Kings)
2013 - Jonathan Toews (Hawks)
2014 - Anze Kopitar (Kings)
2015 - Jonathan Toews (Hawks)
2016 - Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin (Penguins)
2017 - Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin (Penguins)
2018 - Nicklas Backstrom or Evgeni Kuznetsov (Capitals)
2019 - Ryan O'Reilly (Blues)
2020 - Steven Stamkos or Braden Point (Lightning) carried by Hedman/Vasy
2021 - Steven Stamkos or Braden Point (Lightning) carried by Hedman/Vasy
2022 - Nathan MacKinnon (Avalanche)
2023 - Jack Eichel (Golden Knights)
2024 - Alexander Barkov (Panthers)

Side note, of the above teams, only two won the President's Trophy.
2008 - Pavel Datsyuk (Wings)
2013 - Jonathan Toews (Hawks)

Now you take a look at the 2025 Kings...who is their big two-way 1C? They don't have one. Anze Kopitar is nearly 40 now (like 38-ish) and Byfield is still trying to find his way as a full time center in the top 6.

So that's one example of how the Kings don't have what it takes to win and they are a creampuff matchup for any team that has one (let alone two) 1Cs. It will be the same thing if we look at the 1D situation for the Kings as well. You'll find 1D is a huge deal for Cup winners and LA doesn't have a 1D right now.

(Oiler fans shouldn't care about whether they beat the Kings or how good the opponent they beat is...bottom line, win the Cup or the season is a failure. It has nothing to do with if the Kings are "good" playoff team or not.)

 

[Rorschach]

Are you suggesting the Kings should rebuild because they lost in round one?

No. That's a big leap bro. Losing to the 2025 Oilers in round 1 is not a shame. They went to the Final last year, they went to the Final this year...that alone, losing to the Oilers is not a reason at all.

You rebuild if your roster can't win in the playoffs at all (assuming you're a typical organization and not one just trying to stay afloat) AND it's just getting worse.

Don't conflate a team that can't make it past the first round with a team that lost in the first round but can improve. Many great up-and-coming young teams will often lose in the first round of that core's first playoffs. On the other hand if you're LA and your team is getting worse via age, then it's a time to rebuild.

But that has nothing to do with the fact that just making the playoffs for a guaranteed first round exit is good thing or a worthy accomplishment of some kind.

 

[JaegerDice]

Ottawa had a winning record and a positive goal differential. The game isnt only played 5 on 5. Silly way to do a breakdown.

Actual record and goal differential should be the litmus test. Only Minnesota and Montreal had negative goal differentials and only Montreal had a losing record.

Teams that over-rely on the power play for goal differential struggle in the playoffs as the frequency or penalties called decreases while the variability of penalties called increases. Penalty calls are influenced by score and game-state, and infractions that occur later in games, later in series, and later in the playoffs are called less often (compounding effect), giving these teams less opportunity to leverage the power-play for goal differential.

Additionally, the average quality of goaltending and penalty killing faced generally increases in the playoffs vs the 82 game schedule, making it more difficult to score power-play goals when power-plays are awarded.

The bulk of the games are played 5v5, and the most successful teams are overwhelmingly the teams that control play and generate goal differential at 5v5. Sometimes you get a team like Edmonton, that is underwater in 5v5 goal differential, but these are teams that control play with poor sh% or sv% or both.

 

[JaegerDice]

Rather than look at out-of-context statistics, such as regular season numbers, we can look at roster construction of nearly all Stanley Cup winners. The playoff game has little to do with the regular season game, which is why so often the President's Cup winner doesn't win the Cup.

One key (likely the biggest key) is the first line center...
Big-two way centers of SC winners:
2006 - Rod Brind'amour (Hurricanes)
2007 - none, this is the rare case where a team has 2x 1Ds (Pronger and Niedermayer) (Ducks)
2008 - Pavel Datsyuk (Wings)
2009 - Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin (Penguins)
2010 - Jonathan Toews (Hawks)
2011 - Patrice Bergeron (Bruins)
2012 - Anze Kopitar (Kings)
2013 - Jonathan Toews (Hawks)
2014 - Anze Kopitar (Kings)
2015 - Jonathan Toews (Hawks)
2016 - Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin (Penguins)
2017 - Sidney Crosby or Evgeni Malkin (Penguins)
2018 - Nicklas Backstrom or Evgeni Kuznetsov (Capitals)
2019 - Ryan O'Reilly (Blues)
2020 - Steven Stamkos or Braden Point (Lightning) carried by Hedman/Vasy
2021 - Steven Stamkos or Braden Point (Lightning) carried by Hedman/Vasy
2022 - Nathan MacKinnon (Avalanche)
2023 - Jack Eichel (Golden Knights)
2024 - Alexander Barkov (Panthers)

Side note, of the above teams, only two won the President's Trophy.
2008 - Pavel Datsyuk (Wings)
2013 - Jonathan Toews (Hawks)

Now you take a look at the 2025 Kings...who is their big two-way 1C? They don't have one. Anze Kopitar is nearly 40 now (like 38-ish) and Byfield is still trying to find his way as a full time center in the top 6.

So that's one example of how the Kings don't have what it takes to win and they are a creampuff matchup for any team that has one (let alone two) 1Cs. It will be the same thing if we look at the 1D situation for the Kings as well. You'll find 1D is a huge deal for Cup winners and LA doesn't have a 1D right now.

(Oiler fans shouldn't care about whether they beat the Kings or how good the opponent they beat is...bottom line, win the Cup or the season is a failure. It has nothing to do with if the Kings are "good" playoff team or not.)

Nothing here contradicts the statistics discussed in this thread, you're simply looking at inputs rather than outputs.

 

[bert]

Teams that over-rely on the power play for goal differential struggle in the playoffs as the frequency and variability of penalties called increases. Penalty calls are influenced by score and game-state, and infractions that occur later in games, later in series, and later in the playoffs are called less often, giving these teams less opportunity to leverage the power-play for goal differential.

Additionally, the average quality of goaltending and penalty killing faced generally increases in the playoffs vs the 82 game schedule, making it more difficult to score power-play goals when power-plays are awarded.

The bulk of the games are played 5v5, and the most successful teams are overwhelmingly the teams that control play and generate goal differential at 5v5. Sometimes you get a team like Edmonton, that is underwater in 5v5 goal differential, but these are teams that control play with poor sh% or sv% or both.

But its still part of the game. So it matters. Sorry to break it to you but there are penalties in the playoffs.

 

[PistolPete]

But its still part of the game. So it matters. Sorry to break it to you but there are penalties in the playoffs.

He's addressing the difference between RS and PO and why reliance on a strong PP is a problem in the PO. He never claimed there are no penalties

 

[Rorschach]

Nothing here contradicts the statistics discussed in this thread, you're simply looking at inputs rather than outputs.

The statistics don’t play the game.

 

[647Hockey]

Teams that dont have grit, have suspect goaltending, and have a history of underachieving spectacularly flaming out the playoffs.

Some recent teams that come to mind who are usually bad in the playoffs:

- Leafs (almost always a first round loss)
- Winnipeg (almost always a first round loss)
- Carolina (Would do worse in playoffs if they didnt play Isles in 3 of past 6 playoffs. Always get smoked in conf finals. I think 1-16 in last 4 conf finals)
- Caps (excluding that one Cup run in 15+ years of being a solid reg season team with OV)
- LA (bad playoff team since their last cup. Always collapses against Oilers when they look good early on)

 

[JaegerDice]

The statistics don’t play the game.

You can line up the inputs as perfectly as you think possible and still have a team that under-performs because your vision/perception was off.

Outputs are all the really matter in the end. Nobody cares how great your players are if they don't play well or win.

 

[Rorschach]

You can line up the inputs as perfectly as you think possible and still have a team that under-performs because your vision/perception was off.

Outputs are all the really matter in the end. Nobody cares how great your players are if they don't play well or win.

Not if you compare apples to oranges.

 

[bert]

He's addressing the difference between RS and PO and why reliance on a strong PP is a problem in the PO. He never claimed there are no penalties

It was a lazy evaluation in Ottawas scenario. Their advanced metrics at 5 on 5 were good they had the worst shooting percentage in the league. In the playoffs they got the better of Toronto 5 on 5.

My point is that when evaluating a team cherry picking one stat because you want it to fit your narrative is l factually wrong. Actual goal differential is a more important factor when evaluating a team. Not simply saying they are a bad team because of their 5 on 5 goal differential then walking away with no other points. Literally nothing else is taken into account.

 

[bert]

He's addressing the difference between RS and PO and why reliance on a strong PP is a problem in the PO. He never claimed there are no penalties

It was a lazy evaluation in Ottawas scenario. Their advanced metrics at 5 on 5 were good they had the worst shooting percentage in the league. In the playoffs they got the better of Toronto 5 on 5.

My point is that when evaluating a team cherry picking one stat because you want it to fit your narrative is l factually wrong. Actual goal differential is a more important factor when evaluating a team. Not simply saying they are a bad team because of their 5 on 5 goal differential then walking away with no other points. Literally nothing else is taken into account. As a guy that likes to flex as being data driven he's not even good at it.

You can line up the inputs as perfectly as you think possible and still have a team that under-performs because your vision/perception was off.

Outputs are all the really matter in the end. Nobody cares how great your players are if they don't play well or win.

Nothing more ridiculous than an hf poster that thinks you can derive all evaluation off of metrics alone. Major coping mechanism to try and feel important. People that have been in the sport their entire life that have lived, played, been taught and breathed it have a way better handle than someone that's became a casual fan and started to look at spread sheets. Actually watching a game and understanding the neutral zone regroup or forcheck a team is doing. Helps you understand the sport. Why things are happening. Situationally why a player makes that decision. Trends and momentum shifts in a game are happening because adjustments are being made. To pretend you know better is frankly embarrassing. Then to go about it from a lazy evaluation like the one I proved right above this post just crushes ones credibility

 

[M Ace]

Toronto Maple Leafs!

 

[daver]

Toronto Maple Leafs!

I was just about to make some low hanging fruit comment about the Leafs. I guess I will get my dopamine hit elsewhere.