What If ….. Thread
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
Dryden's reputation is lower historically. But that Boston team wins more than two Cups. Ray Bourque is a Toronto Maple Leaf throughout the 80's.
Posted this one in a similar thread, but Eric Lindros nearly had a buzzer beater that would have put Philadelphia up 1-0 going into the 2nd intermission of ECF Game 6. If Philly hangs on then Lindros wouldn't have been concussed in Game 7.
Philly would have had home ice against Dallas. Stars were a little banged up (Jamie Langenbrunner only dressed for one game of the SCF and barely played). Does Lindros possibly win a Cup? Does he still force a trade out of Philadelphia?
Leading up to the 1993 Draft, San Jose owned the #2 pick and were fielding offers. For better or worse, they talked themselves into Viktor Kozlov being the star center prospect that they lacked in the system. A few teams were very interested as they all wanted Chris Pronger.
The Rangers attempted to trade up to #2, but their own first rounder (#8) was too late to guarantee Kozlov. Quebec also wanted Pronger and offered something centered around Mike Ricci and #10. Apparently San Jose didn't like Ricci enough at that point and/or wanted Kozlov that badly.
Allegedly Quebec's owner tried to negotiate directly with San Jose's owner who declined to get involved. Sharks co-GM (that's another layer in itself) Dean Lombardi was pissed that Quebec tried to go over his head. We were only a year removed from Quebec trading Eric Lindros twice, so they didn't exactly have the best reputation.
Quebec tried to get #3 from Tampa and then would have flipped with San Jose, but Tampa wasn't interested in the Ricci package either. Apparently Quebec and San Jose agreed to meet the night before the draft to discuss it face to face and Quebec's brass no showed.
Hartford had a simpler trade offer on the table which San Jose eventually took.
But the part of the story that I didn't know until a few years ago was that Quebec offered the rights to an unsigned Peter Forsberg at the last minute. After the draft, Lombardi fumed to the press about Quebec. Basically Lombardi insinuated that he would have done that trade contingent on getting Forsberg signed. Quebec waiting until the morning of the draft meant San Jose had no time to talk with Forsberg's agent.
The problem for San Jose was that the CBA back then allowed unsigned European prospects to sign Group IV offer sheets after a certain period of time. This was how Calgary signed Teemu Selanne in the summer of 1992 which Winnipeg begrudgingly matched (3 years x 400K, 1.5 mil signing bonus).
Forsberg (and Markus Naslund) were about to eligible for those offer sheet a week after the draft. The rumor was that some teams might be willing to offer a 4-5 million dollar signing bonus. Or that Forsberg was eyeing the record breaking rookie contract that Alexandre Daigle (5 years, 12.25 million) had gotten from Ottawa. Unlike Group I/II offer sheets, the original team received no compensation if they chose not to match.
So San Jose couldn't risk trading the #2 pick and then either having to match a bloated offer sheet or risk losing Forsberg for nothing.
But it's a fun what if had that trade gone through:
Pronger on Quebec/Colorado: Does he get a Cup there? Avs probably still trade for Ozolinsh in 1995 as Pronger hadn't quite leveled up yet.
Forsberg on San Jose instead of Kozlov: Kozlov eventually netted Brad Stuart and Jonathan Cheechoo, but would Forsberg have been enough to put San Jose into contention in the late 90's / early 00's?
Does Quebec still trade Mats Sundin? Or does he get a Cup with the Avs?
Brian Burke quit as Hartford GM after the draft and the team would trade Pronger very early but for Brendan Shanahan. If Hartford doesn't have Pronger, Kozlov probably isn't enough to get Shanahan. I've read that the Rangers were the runner up for Shanahan (Kovalev+). If Shanahan goes to the Rangers, does he get a Cup?
And then where does that put the Red Wings? Albeit they had so much talent that they may have been able to break through even without Shanny.
VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
JackSlater
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Tony Esposito or Rogie Vachon is now more highly regarded. Dryden is less regarded. I don't think that it changes much of anything for Boston.
I don't think it changes very much. Canada thinks about the Summit Series less and Russia thinks about it more.
What if Bobby Hull never signed in the WHA?
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
It collapses by '76. Hull has another goal scoring title. Gretzky overtakes him instead of Howe for goals....eventually.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I also think the 1972 Summit Series is not as close.
I would argue that in summer 1972 the three best Canadian hockey players were Orr, Esposito, and Hull. Gaining a fast big shot like Hull would do wonders to boost Canadian offense. He played very well against the Soviets two years later on a much weaker roster.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
I didn't think of that angle...that's interesting.
I wonder who loses their spot(s) in this situation...wouldn't it be ironic if it was Paul Henderson somehow? I actually don't know who was on the bubble for that team to be honest...
VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
I disagree. My dad's generation were always saying "where were you when Henderson scored?" I was 2 years old when it happened and i have CONSTANT childhood memories of messages from he, she, him, her, them ... i was all about stopping the puck (Dryden my 1st hero; LD my youth hockey position (er, my hormones kicked in so forgive me when my teenage *** in the '80s thought Coffey was great. (He was, but not always in the way i respect - i've mentioned this more than ten times).
Peter Gzowski said the Summit Series showed the "world"(NHL) that the game was international.
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Maybe a minor one, but Vladimir Malakhov going skiing might have changed how the 2000 playoffs went.
Malakhov had missed the first half of the 1999-00 season with a knee injury. During the All Star break, he was spotted a ski resort. From the sounds of it, he was on a bunny slope with his kid but it wasn't a great look. Malakhov was talented but was inconsistent which caused fans/media/coaches to be frustrated with him. This put it over the top as Montreal was struggling that year.
Malakhov rejoined the team soon after but some were mad that they allowed him back. After he returned, Montreal promptly went on a 7 game winning streak which got them back within playoff contention.
But the winning streak came to an end with a 3-0 loss on a Hockey Night In Canada game. The fans singled out Malakhov and booed whenever he touched the puck. Perhaps channeling Patrick Roy, Malakhov egged on the crowd during his final shift.
Malakhov would play one more game with Montreal (a road win against New Jersey), but they decided they couldn't wait until the trade deadline to move him. So they traded him a day later to the Devils on March 1.
The timing was interesting with regards to Ray Bourque. Most people, including Bourque himself, thought he was headed to Philadelphia. But on March 7th, Bourque was unexpectedly dealt to Colorado. Philadelphia suddenly was left empty handed with upgrading their blue line. That deadline wasn't particularly great for D; Arguably the best rental was the Devils' Lyle Odelein and Lou wouldn't have dealt him to a rival.
Malakhov would be a huge luxury as a 3rd pairing guy for the Devils in the 2000 Cup run.
If Malakhov had managed to make headlines, maybe Montreal keeps him until the deadline and he would have been a backup option for Philadelphia? Although I'm not sure if they had an offer that would have topped the Devils giving up Sheldon Souray.
In 2004, the Devils tried to get Malakhov back (with Scott Stevens injured) but the Rangers traded him to the Flyers instead. Malakhov played well for the Flyers who knocked the Devils out in Round 1. Unfortunately that eventually led to Lou signing Malakhov after the lockout to unsexy results.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Scott Morrison's book "1972" goes through the selection process. I wanna say the last picks were Clarke and Henderson, but I just borrowed the book from the library so I don't have it in front of me.
With the WHA collapsing in 1976 you get a huge butterfly effect. The absorbed teams are different. Do Houston and San Diego join the NHL? The Ohio teams? What about the Toros?
Gretzky never ends up an Oiler.
Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
He's a...Colorado Rockie...? With Don Cherry as his coach...so, no Coach's Corner, no "Mickey Mouse Organization" quote for sure (squared)...
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I just realized. The Ken Linseman lawsuit wasn't until 1977. Without the WHA around it all falls apart so we never get an 18 draft age and Gretzky doesn't debut until 1981.
Johnny Engine
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What I've heard is that the entire line of Clarke, Henderson and Ellis were the last three picked, but I'm not sure the selection process was necessarily linear. You've got a bunch of defensively-oriented players who were in the lineup from go all supposedly just getting in under the garage door, and then in the meantime you have Glennie, Guevremont, Tallon, Dionne and Martin (along with Eddie Johnston) sitting around doing nothing, at least 9 guys getting into less than half the games - I know they wanted to rotate players in and out before realizing the games were actually going to be serious, but that still suggests they were trying to do something other than just prioritize which players they were going to bring.
JackSlater
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I'm glad that Gretzky came up, my question was originally going to be about Gretzky and the WHA. Where does Gretzky end up if the WHA collapses. More broadly, if Hull never signs in the WHA does it impact many Stanley Cups into the 1990s?
Yes Canadians would be less happy and Russians more happy but I don't see how it changes much of anything. Game 1 changed things. Whether Canada or USSR wins by one goal doesn't change much in terms of how those countries proceed, in my opinion.
VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
And yet the 1969 moon landing and the 1972 Summit Series i heard INCESSANTLY about before the Soviet Berlin came down when i was in high school. It was a different era.
My junior high school classes were a a buzz with this film with Charlie Sheen, Patrick Swayze:
My junior high school classes were a a buzz with this film with Charlie Sheen, Patrick Swayze:
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Dr John Carlson
Registered User
I alluded to it in the goalie thread, but what if Bill Durnan doesn't injure his leg in 1935?
We'll have to make a few assumptions that could be incorrect with some digging into the papers, but let's have some fun and see what we can do... what's not an assumption is that Durnan was an elite prospect for the Leafs and had been called the 'future' in nets for Toronto as a teenager. It just so happened that George Hainsworth was in his early 40s at this point and a replacement was needed. Without that leg injury, which totally set back his development and made Toronto cut ties with him, does Toronto reach down for Durnan as a green 20 year old?
For the sake of the hypothetical, let's say they do. Conn Smythe purchased the rights to Turk Broda, 21 years old at the time, from Detroit at the conclusion of the 35-36 season for what was apparently the most ever spent for a minor league goaler. With Durnan in the picture, they don't spend that kind of money on another young goalie. Toronto heads into the season with the young Durnan as their starter, and we'll leave it at that for now.
Meanwhile, Detroit keeps Turk for now. Normie Smith had grabbed the starting role and would go on to win the Vezina in 36-37, so Broda isn't taking that spot. Normie was still in his 20s at that point, and Detroit had no reason to think he wasn't their starter long-term, so I'm guessing James Norris continues listening to offers. Most of the teams in the league are set in goal, with only two having any questions (not counting Toronto), and they're both the lame ducks of the league - the Americans with old man Worters still hanging on, and the Maroons splitting time between Bill Beveridge and old man Chabot. The Maroons are only a couple years from folding, but since they're the most in need, they buy Broda off of Detroit's hands for considerably less than Toronto pays.
The Maroons don't see any change of fortune with Turk in net - they were eliminated by the Rangers in the playoffs in 1937 after scoring 0 goals in their series. Broda isn't scoring goals for them, so nothing changes there, and they run out of money after the following season. The Canadiens absorbed a lot of Maroons upon their folding, but they don't take Broda, as they're still happy having Wilf Cude in goal. All teams are mostly satisfied with their goaltending heading into the season, in fact. Who gets Broda, then? Detroit, as Normie Smith essentially walks out on the team just a few games into the season, so Jack Adams phones in to Turk, he comes down to tend goal, and he doesn't give up the position for another ten years and change.
How different do the 40s look with Broda on Detroit and Durnan on Toronto? I tried to go through each year and estimate how things would look different, but it gets very murky with the war thrown in. Durnan probably goes off to fight, and comes back to take the starting job from Frank McCool. Does Broda come back and take the starting job from Lumley? Probably, right?. Does Montreal give Gerry McNeill the Lumley treatment, by bringing him up as a teenager? They probably win in 1944 with Joe Blow in net, but beyond that? I got lost in the sauce trying to figure it out so I'm tapping out now.
We'll have to make a few assumptions that could be incorrect with some digging into the papers, but let's have some fun and see what we can do... what's not an assumption is that Durnan was an elite prospect for the Leafs and had been called the 'future' in nets for Toronto as a teenager. It just so happened that George Hainsworth was in his early 40s at this point and a replacement was needed. Without that leg injury, which totally set back his development and made Toronto cut ties with him, does Toronto reach down for Durnan as a green 20 year old?
For the sake of the hypothetical, let's say they do. Conn Smythe purchased the rights to Turk Broda, 21 years old at the time, from Detroit at the conclusion of the 35-36 season for what was apparently the most ever spent for a minor league goaler. With Durnan in the picture, they don't spend that kind of money on another young goalie. Toronto heads into the season with the young Durnan as their starter, and we'll leave it at that for now.
Meanwhile, Detroit keeps Turk for now. Normie Smith had grabbed the starting role and would go on to win the Vezina in 36-37, so Broda isn't taking that spot. Normie was still in his 20s at that point, and Detroit had no reason to think he wasn't their starter long-term, so I'm guessing James Norris continues listening to offers. Most of the teams in the league are set in goal, with only two having any questions (not counting Toronto), and they're both the lame ducks of the league - the Americans with old man Worters still hanging on, and the Maroons splitting time between Bill Beveridge and old man Chabot. The Maroons are only a couple years from folding, but since they're the most in need, they buy Broda off of Detroit's hands for considerably less than Toronto pays.
The Maroons don't see any change of fortune with Turk in net - they were eliminated by the Rangers in the playoffs in 1937 after scoring 0 goals in their series. Broda isn't scoring goals for them, so nothing changes there, and they run out of money after the following season. The Canadiens absorbed a lot of Maroons upon their folding, but they don't take Broda, as they're still happy having Wilf Cude in goal. All teams are mostly satisfied with their goaltending heading into the season, in fact. Who gets Broda, then? Detroit, as Normie Smith essentially walks out on the team just a few games into the season, so Jack Adams phones in to Turk, he comes down to tend goal, and he doesn't give up the position for another ten years and change.
How different do the 40s look with Broda on Detroit and Durnan on Toronto? I tried to go through each year and estimate how things would look different, but it gets very murky with the war thrown in. Durnan probably goes off to fight, and comes back to take the starting job from Frank McCool. Does Broda come back and take the starting job from Lumley? Probably, right?. Does Montreal give Gerry McNeill the Lumley treatment, by bringing him up as a teenager? They probably win in 1944 with Joe Blow in net, but beyond that? I got lost in the sauce trying to figure it out so I'm tapping out now.
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Michael Farkas
Celebrate 68
In that situation, there's no War at all. Richard doesn't score 50 goals against a bunch of ditch diggers and we don't get a 50 goal season until Bobby Hull in 1966.
I'm not totally sure. I think we *might* underrate Broda a bit. Does Broda on Detroit and Durnan on Toronto flip some of those Cups that went through Detroit in the 40's...? It might.
I'm not totally sure. I think we *might* underrate Broda a bit. Does Broda on Detroit and Durnan on Toronto flip some of those Cups that went through Detroit in the 40's...? It might.
Speaking of Bourque, what if LA doesn't trade all those high first rounders in the 70's and 80's (Bourque, Barrasso and I think Housley among them)
Dr John Carlson
Registered User
You'd have to assume the 1942 Final flips back Detroit's way with Broda instead of Johnny Mowers. Up 3-0, just need to win one more and it's yours... if there's ever a time for a HOF goalie to show his colours, there it is.
As I said, though - beyond that, you get the war, and then you have to start fudging the hypothetical more and more.
And no New Jersey Devils at least not as a relocation. With a player of Gretzky's magnitude in Denver ownership and investors keep the team there. The New Jersey franchise either never exists or doesn't come into play until some time in the 90s.
reckoning
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I've never heard that Ellis and Henderson were final picks. They had committed to having at least two players from each Canadian team, and they would have been the obvious choices from the Leafs.
Bobby Clarke was the last one. The last centre spot was originally supposed to be Derek Sanderson, who went to the WHA. Then they wanted Walt Tkaczuk, but he had his summer hockey school to run. After that, Sinden had a couple others in mind, but John Ferguson was pushing really hard to pick Clarke, and thats what they did.
My biggest one is what if Ron Francis never scores from the blue line in 1992. The obvious implications are the Rangers go up 3-1 in that series and imo go on to win the cup and the curse ends at 52 years. It's what happens after, in 93 the Rangers don't repeat but still make the playoffs they also acquire Esa Tikkanen but don't give up Doug Weight. The result is a 1st round exit and Roger Neilson bolts after the season for the Panthers job due to rising tensions between him and Messier. However the Rangers don't hire Mike Keenan and promote from within. With the Rangers not in on Keeenan Detroit hires him, at the same time Bowman resigns in Pittsburgh and bolts to St.Louis. In 94 the Rangers win again but in much easier fashion, they do acquire Larmer like irl but don't make all the deadline moves outside of bringing in MacTavish. It's what happens after 94.
Imo the Rangers are still contenders. With Keenan in Detroit it's interesting to think what might have happened there does Pronger wind up there with Keenan in charge, does Keenan try to force out Devellano and Holland and convince Illitch that he should wear both hats? Do the Red Wings break thier curse and is Yzerman still even there?
With Bowman in St.Louis I would assume Shanahan is never moved and he's not as hard on Hull as Keenan was. Gretzky still goes there in 96 and probably retures there and it's quite possible that the Blues win a cup with Gretzky too. How him and Bowman would have gotten along is what I'm curious about as they never really interacted. All things to wonder about
Imo the Rangers are still contenders. With Keenan in Detroit it's interesting to think what might have happened there does Pronger wind up there with Keenan in charge, does Keenan try to force out Devellano and Holland and convince Illitch that he should wear both hats? Do the Red Wings break thier curse and is Yzerman still even there?
With Bowman in St.Louis I would assume Shanahan is never moved and he's not as hard on Hull as Keenan was. Gretzky still goes there in 96 and probably retures there and it's quite possible that the Blues win a cup with Gretzky too. How him and Bowman would have gotten along is what I'm curious about as they never really interacted. All things to wonder about
buffalowing88
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Quite an interesting butterfly effect there. I think St. Louis comes out the most favorably as Bowman would have maximized a core that underachieved throughout the 90s.
Neutrinos
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What If... Quebec/Colorado hadn't traded Sundin and Nolan?
I think Nolan goes on to score an easy 500+, and is seen as a deserved member of the Hall of Fame after multiple championships with the Avs
And Sundin likely would've finished with 1500+ points, and might very well have a Smythe trophy
I think Nolan goes on to score an easy 500+, and is seen as a deserved member of the Hall of Fame after multiple championships with the Avs
And Sundin likely would've finished with 1500+ points, and might very well have a Smythe trophy
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