What If ….. Thread

[Dingo]

What if ...... Boston sticks with first round, athletic dynamo, Hannu Toivenen instead of fat, Finnish-league-at-best, non-athlete, Tim Thomas in 2007?

I say they win 4 Cups. With a defence like that in front of him, the low shot quality combined with an actual heavily scouted athlete in net would mean season after season of .940 or better save%. And thats what it takes in the playoffs.

 

[BadgerBruce]

I just realized. The Ken Linseman lawsuit wasn't until 1977. Without the WHA around it all falls apart so we never get an 18 draft age and Gretzky doesn't debut until 1981.

Broadly speaking, the Ken Linseman ruling had minimal (if any) impact on Gretzky because he was inked to a personal services contract, not a league contract. A complete outlier situation, one of a kind. Signed it with Skalbania who sold it to Pocklington. Gretzky was covered by this personal services contract (it did undergo revision/extension) until he was dealt to the Kings and Bruce McNall signed him to a proper NHL Standard Player Contract that made Gretzky even richer.

When the NHL absorbed the WHA, U20 players from the WHA had to go back into the entry draft — EXCEPT Wayne Gretzky. That was the beauty of the personal services contract. And No, there was no way in Hell Gretzky was going to walk away from the millions of dollars that personal services contract guaranteed.

 

[ORHawksFan]

Somewhat of a long-shot but one of my favorites: overtime of Game 4 of the 1996 semis between the hawks and avalanche, hawks lead the series 2-1. Roenick gets a breakaway but gets tripped from behind by Sandish Ozalinsh pretty blatantly. No penalty-shot given, not even a penalty. To me, it’s a pretty bad non-call. Avs end up winning the game and the series with Roy giving his famous “I’ve got my two stanley cup rings in my ears” chirp at roenick.

If Roenick gets a penalty shot there and scores (not a given obviously, it’s Roy, but Roenick did have success against him in that series) the hawks go up 3-1. Not insurmountable for the avs but not easy against the very good Hawks team (Roenick, Chelios, Belfour, Amonte, etc).

So let's say the hawks win that series, then they face Detroit in a WCF rematch from the previous year (detroit won in 5). I don’t really see the hawks overcoming the red wings here, so maybe the red wings end up playing against Florida which I imagine they win.

The red wings win a year early, which means they probably don’t trade for Shanahan to better match up with Colorado. Does Coffey still leave?

The Avs probably remain in contention the next few years but the a rivalry with detroit changes since there is no Lemieux hit on Draper and no revenge by McCarty and the Wings the next year in that famous brawl.

Maybe the next year it’s Colorado getting to the finals against Philly instead of Detroit.

Sadly I don’t think this changes anything for Chicago, since Bill Wirtz was a cheap bastard so Roenick is still gone the next year followed soon by Chelios.

Anyway, the play is at 29:45 here:

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

What if Doug Gilmour waived his NTC to go to Vancouver and the Leafs acquired Naslund? A forward group led by Sundin and Naslund would’ve been something, and maybe it’s enough to at least get the Leafs to the SCF one of those years.

 

[SealsFan]

What if the Oakland/California Seals played their home games at the Cow Palace (or had a new arena built) in San Francisco, where most of their fans were from?

What if the Seals didn't trade their draft pick which would have landed them Guy Lafleur?

What if Gerry Pinder, Bobby Sheehan, Wayne Carleton, Paul Shmyr, Norm Ferguson and Gary Jarrett didn't jump to the WHA in 72-73 when the Seals were starting to build the nucleus of a promising team?

What if the Seals didn't pack up for Cleveland in 76-77 when they were again building a promising team?

What if the Cleveland Barons had an arena closer to the city instead of Richfield Coliseum out in the middle of nowhere, drawing 5,000 fans?

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

Somewhat of a long-shot but one of my favorites: overtime of Game 4 of the 1996 semis between the hawks and avalanche, hawks lead the series 2-1. Roenick gets a breakaway but gets tripped from behind by Sandish Ozalinsh pretty blatantly. No penalty-shot given, not even a penalty. To me, it’s a pretty bad non-call. Avs end up winning the game and the series with Roy giving his famous “I’ve got my two stanley cup rings in my ears” chirp at roenick.

If Roenick gets a penalty shot there and scores (not a given obviously, it’s Roy, but Roenick did have success against him in that series) the hawks go up 3-1. Not insurmountable for the avs but not easy against the very good Hawks team (Roenick, Chelios, Belfour, Amonte, etc).

So let's say the hawks win that series, then they face Detroit in a WCF rematch from the previous year (detroit won in 5). I don’t really see the hawks overcoming the red wings here, so maybe the red wings end up playing against Florida which I imagine they win.

The red wings win a year early, which means they probably don’t trade for Shanahan to better match up with Colorado. Does Coffey still leave?

The Avs probably remain in contention the next few years but the a rivalry with detroit changes since there is no Lemieux hit on Draper and no revenge by McCarty and the Wings the next year in that famous brawl.

Maybe the next year it’s Colorado getting to the finals against Philly instead of Detroit.

Sadly I don’t think this changes anything for Chicago, since Bill Wirtz was a cheap bastard so Roenick is still gone the next year followed soon by Chelios.

Anyway, the play is at 29:45 here:

Real question is where does Shanahan go then? The Rangers and Philly both wanted him. He goes to NY the Rangers might have enough to get over Philly but still probably lose in the finals.

If he goes to Philly does he team up with Brind Amour and does that give the Flyers the depth they so desperately needed in the Lindros era to win that coveted 3rd cup.

 

[carjackmalone]

Michael Gobuty signs Gretzky in 78-79 and he plays for the Jets with Bobby Hull and Kent Nilsson and does he enter the 79-80 draft or not

 

[Brodeur]

Calgary Flames vs. Vancouver Canucks Box Score: April 14, 1999 | Hockey-Reference.com

Get the latest box score updates on the Calgary Flames vs. Vancouver Canucks game played on April 14, 1999 on Hockey-Reference.com

www.hockey-reference.com

In their regular season finale in 1999, Calgary scored with four seconds left in regulation to beat Vancouver. If Vancouver had managed to salvage a point out of the game, they would have flip flopped draft spots with the Islanders pre-lottery. Assuming Chicago still won the lottery, the order would have been:

1. Tampa Bay (47 points)
2. Atlanta (expansion)
3. NY Islanders (58 points)
4. Chicago (moved up from #8 via lottery)
5. Vancouver (59+ points)

From Brian Burke's autobiography, he mentioned that he shared a car ride with Chicago GM Bob Murray during the 1999 World Championships. Murray apparently asked if Burke would consider moving the #3 pick since he wanted both Sedins in Chicago. Up to that point, Burke had to downplay his interest in the Sedins but pulled the reverse Uno and asked if Chicago would give up #4.

In a different world, is Murray able to pry #3 away from Mike Milbury? Islanders were fresh off of trading Ziggy Palffy a week before the draft, so I don't think they had the payroll to add a proven piece. Chicago's prospect pool wasn't great in the moment. THN had Mark Bell ranked #18 leaguewide in their spring 1999 Future Watch issue. Chicago had J.P. Dumont, but they had gotten him from the Islanders after a contract squabble so I doubt Milbury wanted Dumont back.

If he's in the #5 spot, I don't know if Burke would be in the position to jedi mind trick Milbury/Murray into giving up their picks.

At any rate, it's an interesting "what if" had the Sedins been split up or been together in Chicago instead of Vancouver.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

One that gets brought up alot is what if Colorado didn't match the Sakic offer sheet? Alot of people talk how the Rangers would have fared but not much is ever said about Colorado. Imo the Avs would have had lots of problems as good as Forsberg was he now would be taking on more ice time and playing against other teams top pairings more often. The Avs also had slow starts in 98-99 and 99-00 and finally righted the ship around the winter months leading up to the deadline, take Sakic off those teams and those records would have been worse which potentially means no Fleury in 99,Bourque in 00 and Blake in 01. You figure they all would have been low seeds or missed completely as well which definitely means no cup in 01. Some things to ponder

Where does Bourque go in 2000?
Does Roy get fed up and leave in the summer of 01?
And does Lacroix go to the extreme and trade Hedjuk,Drury and 1 or all 5 compensation picks for Lecavalier in 98 which imo further cripples them?

 

[Davenport]

What if someone had hidden Jack Adams' stupid pills, and then - instead of dismantling the dynasty he built in Detroit - he simply tweeked his roster? That way Terry Sawchuk stays in Detroit, and so does Johnny Bucyk, adding to the depth of the Wings. Ullman - too - would have made a terrific team even better.

 

[The Panther]

What if... Mike Vernon (cough, cough... Hall of Famer) doesn't let in this brutal goal near the end of the 1st period, on April 16th 1991?:


If he doesn't, the Flames go to the 2nd period up 3-0 in game seven, and thus they almost certainly win that series.

Thus, the Oilers don't get a 5th Cup and the Flames or Bruins likely win the 1990 Stanley Cup. If the Flames win, Terry Crisp isn't fired and maybe later the Doug Gilmour trade to Toronto never happens. If the Bruins win, maybe Ray Bourque retired earlier and never goes to Colorado... who might then not win the 2001 Stanley Cup.

All because of Vernon's gaffe.

 

[waitin425]

What if cheapshot artist Gary Suter doesn't do this to Paul Kariya?



Kariya had 31 points in 22 games and was on pace to possibly win the art ross.

More importantly, at the time he was looking like the most dangerous Canadian forward heading into Nagano. I was so pissed off at the time.

What if this hit doesn't happen. How would Canada have done with Kariya in the lineup?

 

[MadLuke]

Kariya is possibly a big one.

From the second half of the 1996 season to the injury

ppg in in nhl
Lemieux: 1.73
Jagr...: 1.44
Kariya.: 1.43
Lindros: 1.42

---
goal per game
Lemieux.: .75
Tkachuck: .67
Bondra..: .66
Kariya..: .66
LeClair.: .65


Cannot really blame someone for trailing Lemieux, he did not need to get any better than that obviously, but was it still some things, 1998 could have been an hot start but maybe not, he could have peeked between 23 and 26 who knows... He had been quite explosive that only time he went to the playoff pre big injuries.

Kariya had 31 points in 22 games and was on pace to possibly win the art ross.

He missed the beginning of the season I think(contract dispute according to wikipedia), he was 32 pts behind Jagr with less than 30 games to play.

Has for Canada at the Olympics, even without Kariya, re-roll the dice with that roster maybe they win, with him it is more likely, I do not remember Recchi playing that well.

Kariya-Sakic before Sakic miss time, Gretzky, many options, they were a goal away so we cannot say they would not have won with a dynamic scorer like Kariya, but then again it is Hasek and they were 65 seconds away to lose in regular time, so we cannot say they would have won. Russia was not bad that year either.

 

[waitin425]

Kariya is possibly a big one.

From the second half of the 1996 season to the injury

ppg in in nhl
Lemieux: 1.73
Jagr...: 1.44
Kariya.: 1.43
Lindros: 1.42

---
goal per game
Lemieux.: .75
Tkachuck: .67
Bondra..: .66
Kariya..: .66
LeClair.: .65


Cannot really blame someone for trailing Lemieux, he did not need to get any better than that obviously, but was it still some things, 1998 could have been an hot start but maybe not, he could have peeked between 23 and 26 who knows... He had been quite explosive that only time he went to the playoff pre big injuries.



He missed the beginning of the season I think(contract dispute according to wikipedia), he was 32 pts behind Jagr with less than 30 games to play.

Has for Canada at the Olympics, even without Kariya, re-roll the dice with that roster maybe they win, with him it is more likely, I do not remember Recchi playing that well.

Kariya-Sakic before Sakic miss time, Gretzky, many options, they were a goal away so we cannot say they would not have won with a dynamic scorer like Kariya, but then again it is Hasek and they were 65 seconds away to lose in regular time, so we cannot say they would have won. Russia was not bad that year either.

Thanks for diving into the stats a little more. My memory is a little foggy. Definitely a huge loss for Canada. though.

 

[carjackmalone]

After the 78-79 cup winning season, Jacques Lemaire,Ken Dryden,Yvon Cournoyer,Scotty Bowman and Sam pollock all say f*** it let’s go for one more.

Do they they win another in 79-80?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, or at least they'd run into the Islanders.

 

[carjackmalone]

What if the Leafs didn’t convert Wendel Clark and Gary Leemen into forwards

 

[Johnny Engine]

What if the Leafs didn’t convert Wendel Clark and Gary Leemen into forwards

Oh to see a top-4 on defense of Clark, Leeman, Iafrate and Gill. They certainly wouldn't have won fewer cups in that time frame.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Wouldn't have made any more saves either haha

 

[Johnny Engine]

Wouldn't have made any more saves either haha

Oh don't worry, their goalie would have been at least five feet tall.

 

[Professor What]

Oh don't worry, their goalie would have been at least five feet tall.

Only if they could bring Worters back from the grave.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

What if cheapshot artist Gary Suter doesn't do this to Paul Kariya?



Kariya had 31 points in 22 games and was on pace to possibly win the art ross.

More importantly, at the time he was looking like the most dangerous Canadian forward heading into Nagano. I was so pissed off at the time.

What if this hit doesn't happen. How would Canada have done with Kariya in the lineup?

kariya held out the first few months of the year, so there was no chance of the art ross

but that to me is the bigger what if. what if kariya and the ducks ate able to come to a deal in the offseason? he starts the season with two games in japan vs the canucks and as a flashy japanese star builds hype leading up to the olympics. and maybe if he’d had training camp and was in midseason form the suter hit doesn’t happen, or he is able to see it coming and brace himself for it.

then maybe he makes the difference against the czech republic? and if he has a big tournament does hockey have its ichiro/yao/pacquiao globalization moment? then the whole decade of the 2000s changes, beginning with us getting the 2005-06 season back.

otoh, kariya didn’t score against tommy salo in 94, who’s to say he scores against hasek?

 

[MXD]

What if the Leafs didn’t convert Wendel Clark and Gary Leemen into forwards

Allan Bester, Peter Ing and Jeff Reese probably have Gaza's over 5. And Wreggett too because he probably doesn't have other jobs after inevitably looking f***ing awful.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

What if the Leafs didn’t convert Wendel Clark and Gary Leemen into forwards

or what if they also tried to convert iafrate into a winger?

 

[CokenoPepsi]

What if Mark Messier stayed in Vancouver and played his final years there?

Funny enough his first year back in New York he outscored every single year he had in Vancouver so he could still play...

Enough to keep the Bertuzzi/Moore thing from happening?